ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #19

[mrjitty]

Oh, I know you didn't make it up, that's not what I meant at all. But IMO the suspects made it up to make IR look suspicious and point the blame away from themselves.

Sadly as we have seen in other cases people will stoop to this kind of thing

 

[Arnie M]

I read somewhere that the ATV belonged to a brother in law.

There is no evidence that there were 2 trips to Leadore that day.

JM doesn't have an attorney yet because she doesn't need one. She hasn't been charged with anything and all an attorney can do for her is to be her mouthpiece which she doesn't need. VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good, just wasting his retainer by giving statements to media. LE isn't going to share the first bit of info with him.

I can't get past IR saying that he saw the baby after they returned from Leadore, and am so stuck on the very narrow window of opportunity for these 2 to have harmed and then hidden their baby that I am again thinking he was abducted by a human or simply wandered away.

As for the polys, perhaps because they believe he wandered away and is still on the mountain somewhere their answers to 'do you know for certain where he is?' and "do you know for certain what happened to him?' came out hinkey. I don't know and no one else does either. They have nothing but hunches based on statistics and a huge amount of zero evidence.

Despite all the PI and LE statements, there is not a scintilla of evidence in support of those statements and therefore they amount to nothing but a hill of beans. Lots of talk but nothing else.

It wouldn't be the first time that law enforcement got it wrong. Even the FBI makes mistakes - after all it is only their opinion. None of them know with any degree of certainty what happened and they are now putting intense pressure on the parents because they have nothing else to go on except to hope to break the parents into a confession.

But, if they are innocent, LE will wait a long, long time for that.

There is zero evidence to support any theory and in fact the absence of evidence is what they are banking on. "We can't find him so you must have killed him and hidden him." Yuck.

I vote your post as the best one out of all the other 18,000 here.

You are right. All we know for sure is the boy went missing and nobody can find him.

 

[Rayemonde]

Yeah... JMO but the whole hair on a shovel thing g was the parents trying to implicate IR too... Bowerman didn't say who claimed to have seen a hair on a shovel, he just said some people made the claim. JMO but I doubt these people were trying to imply the parents or ggp had done anything with the shovel, and there was no one else there when Deorr disappeared... Unless they thought someone had done something with the shovel whilst LE and all the searchers were there.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I read somewhere that the ATV belonged to a brother in law.

There is no evidence that there were 2 trips to Leadore that day.

rsbm

There is no evidence that they made two trips *that day*, but as someone mentioned earlier, they just might have made a trip on Thursday night. This would account for the possible rumor (possible because we only have the word of the pois that it was a rumor at all) of the dirty crying toddler. Didn't SB say they tried to buy food the night before? (eta: This is an actual question. I seem to remember it, but my memory may be faulty).

A couple thoughts not related to your post but I wanted to mention:

1. Her voice does sound trembly at the start of the call. Mine is that way when I'm extremely anxious or nervous. It trembles, and I have to work really hard to control it. I'm not sure why her voice trembles -- could be grief, anxiety, stress, worry fear -- and am not going to speculate. It's just something I observed.

2. IR carrying a deceased toddler on his bike is an extremely unlikely scenario. The baby would be dead weight. Assuming he weighed about 30 lbs., I'd think he'd be quite unweildy to the point of IR being unable to properly steer or ride. I also don't believe IR drove off with him. The parents would certainly notice him going missing along with a vehicle. I can't think of a reason for him doing it WITH their permission either. If I committed a crime, I'd want to involve as few other people as possible to reduce the risk of someone talking. Why would they take the risk when they could easily do their own dirty work?

3. I don't for a minute believe that LE has called the parents suspects simply because they can't figure out what happened. There have been plenty of previous cases where a child has gone missing without a trace, and the parents were NOT considered suspects. These parents are suspects because LE has good reasons to consider them suspects.

all moo

 

[LookingForClues]

LE has not shared their evidence with us, but that certainly does not mean they have no evidence to support naming the parents as suspects.

:moo:

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

3. I don't for a minute believe that LE has called the parents suspects simply because they can't figure out what happened. There have been plenty of previous cases where a child has gone missing without a trace, and the parents were NOT considered suspects. These parents are suspects because LE has good reasons to consider them suspects.

I do think they must have actual evidence they're holding close to the vest and/or waiting to get results back for. Adding it up: Lemhi County, Bonneville County, FBI and 2 PI's on the same page is tough to argue with.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I read somewhere that the ATV belonged to a brother in law.

There is no evidence that there were 2 trips to Leadore that day.

JM doesn't have an attorney yet because she doesn't need one. She hasn't been charged with anything and all an attorney can do for her is to be her mouthpiece which she doesn't need. VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good, just wasting his retainer by giving statements to media. LE isn't going to share the first bit of info with him.

I can't get past IR saying that he saw the baby after they returned from Leadore, and am so stuck on the very narrow window of opportunity for these 2 to have harmed and then hidden their baby that I am again thinking he was abducted by a human or simply wandered away.

As for the polys, perhaps because they believe he wandered away and is still on the mountain somewhere their answers to 'do you know for certain where he is?' and "do you know for certain what happened to him?' came out hinkey. I don't know and no one else does either. They have nothing but hunches based on statistics and a huge amount of zero evidence.

Despite all the PI and LE statements, there is not a scintilla of evidence in support of those statements and therefore they amount to nothing but a hill of beans. Lots of talk but nothing else.

It wouldn't be the first time that law enforcement got it wrong. Even the FBI makes mistakes - after all it is only their opinion. None of them know with any degree of certainty what happened and they are now putting intense pressure on the parents because they have nothing else to go on except to hope to break the parents into a confession.

But, if they are innocent, LE will wait a long, long time for that.

There is zero evidence to support any theory and in fact the absence of evidence is what they are banking on. "We can't find him so you must have killed him and hidden him." Yuck.

I agree with your post, TeaTime, but re the polygraphs: we don't know if those were the exact questions asked, and even if they were the answer should have been an unequivocal NO. If DeOrr wandered off and got lost, or got abducted, or got taken by a mountain lion, or got killed by IR and hidden, they should not have waivered over those questions.

Occam's Razor tells me he ran off and is outside the search zone. But the fact that every member of authority (LE and 2 PI's) have put out pretty damning reports about the parents (which would not be done lightly in my opinion and is presumably with the backing of the FBI) does rather suggest that there is something not right here.

I've said before we should attach less importance on the actual polygraphs, and more on the fact that all these authorities have met the parents, spent time with them, questioned them, seen their body language, heard some lies, got frustrated with the changing stories, and come to the conclusion that they may well be involved somehow.

I dunno. I'm sitting back until something else happens. The 1pm sighting has confused the heck out of me too!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I do think they must have actual evidence they're holding close to the vest and/or waiting to get results back for. Adding it up: Lemhi County, Bonneville County, FBI and 2 PI's on the same page is tough to argue with.

TTWO - you've gone all American - "close to their chest", surely!

(just kidding, caught myself saying diaper the other day!)

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

JM doesn't have an attorney yet because she doesn't need one. She hasn't been charged with anything and all an attorney can do for her is to be her mouthpiece which she doesn't need. VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good, just wasting his retainer by giving statements to media. LE isn't going to share the first bit of info with him.

I disagree w/ the remark that "VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good." If I'd been named a "POI" in such a case, I'd damned sure want a lawyer advising me. In fact, if LE told me I didn't do well on a polygraph, I'd have hired a lawyer right then, and certainly wouldn't have taken a 2nd, 3rd and 4th poly without my attorney being present. For the guilty and innocent alike, things can quickly go sideways when a person becomes a POI/suspect. A good attorney can literally be a life-saver.

 

[kammiemc]

I read somewhere that the ATV belonged to a brother in law.

There is no evidence that there were 2 trips to Leadore that day.

JM doesn't have an attorney yet because she doesn't need one. She hasn't been charged with anything and all an attorney can do for her is to be her mouthpiece which she doesn't need. VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good, just wasting his retainer by giving statements to media. LE isn't going to share the first bit of info with him.

I can't get past IR saying that he saw the baby after they returned from Leadore, and am so stuck on the very narrow window of opportunity for these 2 to have harmed and then hidden their baby that I am again thinking he was abducted by a human or simply wandered away.

As for the polys, perhaps because they believe he wandered away and is still on the mountain somewhere their answers to 'do you know for certain where he is?' and "do you know for certain what happened to him?' came out hinkey. I don't know and no one else does either. They have nothing but hunches based on statistics and a huge amount of zero evidence.

Despite all the PI and LE statements, there is not a scintilla of evidence in support of those statements and therefore they amount to nothing but a hill of beans. Lots of talk but nothing else.

It wouldn't be the first time that law enforcement got it wrong. Even the FBI makes mistakes - after all it is only their opinion. None of them know with any degree of certainty what happened and they are now putting intense pressure on the parents because they have nothing else to go on except to hope to break the parents into a confession.

But, if they are innocent, LE will wait a long, long time for that.

There is zero evidence to support any theory and in fact the absence of evidence is what they are banking on. "We can't find him so you must have killed him and hidden him." Yuck.

Unless someone has a direct line to Quantico, how could we know what evidence they have? They're not going to tell us that.

I am thinking that a very thoughtful sheriff, FBI experts, and PI with a team of 7 behind him, aren't just going to haphazardly conclude that the parents know where there son is based on a hill of beans. This scenario is not a stretch for me. We have seen the inconsistencies in the parents' stories ourselves.

We used to endlessly debate scenarios of mountain lions, forced abduction and the possibility that the child is stuck in the creek. That was probably 1600+ posts.

Now we know (and I do believe all these experts that are on the case have more info than us) that the parents "absolutely" know where there son is.

Some people might not be okay with where the case has landed and still think we know no more than day one. But I couldn't feel more differently. I think we know SO, SO, SO much more.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I have a question about lawyers. What is a ballpark figure for the retainer? Are we talking $100's or $1000's up front for VDK's lawyer?

One thing this family doesn't seem to have is money and I'm wondering if VDK having a lawyer and JM not is simply down to cost?

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

Now we know (and I do believe all these experts that are on the case have more info than us) that the parents "absolutely" know where there son is.

Actually, we do not know that the parents "absolutely" know where their son is. And LE doesn't "absolutely" know, either. If LE did "absolutely" know that, it would mean LE "absolutely" had evidence proving such. And if LE had such evidence, the parents would have already been arrested.

 

[4senthia]

I think the parents know exactly where their son is.
jmo

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

I think the parents know exactly where their son is.
jmo

It's certainly possible they do.

 

[Beezneez]

I have a question about lawyers. What is a ballpark figure for the retainer? Are we talking $100's or $1000's up front for VDK's lawyer?

One thing this family doesn't seem to have is money and I'm wondering if VDK having a lawyer and JM not is simply down to cost?

$1500- 2500 is the retainer for a local divorce attorney, which is all the attorney experience I have.

 

[Rayemonde]

LE have said that they don't want to risk charging the parents too early, and charging them with the wrong thing. They also said they don't want to risk double jeopardy. IMO they have enough evidence to charge them already, but without a body they don't know what to charge them with. That's what I thought SB was saying, and I have no reason to doubt him. So I disagree with the idea that the fact the parent have not been charged yet means there is no evidence against them.

I also think it's highly improbable that LE would have just randomly decided to point the finger at the parents because they are stumped. Why would they do that? If they were really stumped they could just say "Yes, well, mountain lion attacks can leave no evidence, so our working theory is a mountain lion attack, and we will continue in the spring to look for evidence to support that". How do you think they ruled out an animal attack in the first place? Imo it's because the evidence points to the parents. That's why they said they didn't think it was an animal attack, or an abduction.

 

[desert-blue]

This just blows my mind! It has since Vilt made it known and even more when the sheriff stated he didn't tell them not to do the reward.

Even if Vilt wanted them to pay him back and they didn't have $20,000 sitting around - so what. I don't have that kind of money sitting around but if my son were missing I'd be damned sure I'd figure out a way to get the money even if it meant working my *advertiser censored* off for Vilt himself for the next 10 years. I can't think of any parent I know who wouldn't. IMHO, it's obvious they don't want their son back or at least know there's no way they're getting him back.

Absolutely. And if their was son was found and they did have to pay the 20K (which I don't believe was the deal anyway), they could have had an auction/dinner (or some other fundraiser) to raise the money. Even with a cloud of suspicion over their heads, they were able to raise quite a large sum of money to pay for Klein. I think a fundraiser to pay for reward money would have been wildly successful, particularly if DeOrr had been found. I guess my point is that from the beginning the public has been more than willing to help the parents, both financially and in many other ways, and I think it's preposterous for them (or anyone) to say that money was the reason for not offering reward money. MOO.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

LE have said that they don't want to risk charging the parents too early, and charging them with the wrong thing. They also said they don't want to risk double jeopardy. IMO they have enough evidence to charge them already, but without a body they don't know what to charge them with. That's what I thought SB was saying, and I have no reason to doubt him. So I disagree with the idea that the fact the parent have not been charged yet means there is no evidence against them.

I also think it's highly improbable that LE would have just randomly decided to point the finger at the parents because they are stumped. Why would they do that? If they were really stumped they could just say "Yes, well, mountain lion attacks can leave no evidence, so our working theory is a mountain lion attack, and we will continue in the spring to look for evidence to support that". How do you think they ruled out an animal attack in the first place? Imo it's because the evidence points to the parents. That's why they said they didn't think it was an animal attack, or an abduction.

I didn't say the fact that the parents haven't been charged yet means there is no evidence against them. I said that if LE "absolutely" knew that the parents know where their son is, it would mean LE "absolutely" had evidence of such. And if LE had that evidence - evidence showing that the parents "absolutely" know where their son is - the parents would have already been arrested.

 

[Rayemonde]

TC is speaking out again:

https://m.facebook.com/comment/repl...ntifier=153258318385893&gfid=AQDBssFx-dc2E130

Try this?
https://m.facebook.com/We-want-answers-for-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-106121853099540/

Then scroll down to the question that mentions TC.

 

[wondering25]

We don't know for 100% that IR saw DeOrr at the campsite, even if he was shown a picture later on. Remember how much the toddler boy in California looked like him?
I'm not thinking DeOrr was at the campground at all. And that maybe another boy was brought along. <modsnip>, so we know it's possible to have gotten the toddler out of there. (NOT pointing fingers at her)
So there would be no switching DeOrr at the campsite for another boy; only having a little toddler with them to prove one was there so IR would say he was, and I do think it's possible IR may not be very clear on a lot of things.
LE is looking for something. Since the timeline was wrong from the beginning and in my opinion the parents didn't try to correct it, I don't think they were really looking for anyone, including their son.
We all know something is very wrong in this case and I am only looking at it from a rather odd angle.
Which is probably not helping.
JMO

So who would this other little boy be? Where did they get him? where would his mother be and why wouldn't she come forward and say my son was on that trip? it makes no sense. IMO, there was no toddler switching.. in fact, i am not even sure baby deoirr was ever there but certainly, imo not around the trip to the store or upon return from the store. Bowerman is pretty sure the baby was there. i dont believe anything Bowerman says. Sorry..It took 3 weeks or so for the FBI to be brought in.. LE was snookered by the parents or the various LE egos got in the way.

Anything I write is just my opinion.