ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #19

[desert-blue]

Why give the parents 4 polygraphs? Does this give them every chance to pass? I dont agree that LE knew early on the parents were involved. Furthermore, and this is just my opinion, the public right to know that potentially dangerous people were out and about makes me less than a Bowerman supporter. The parents were solid.. bla bla..They are only POI because they were there bla bla. 3 weeks for the FBI to come in...I could go either way on this. Why would I believe Bowerman now?

No arrests have been made...While I always thought the mom seemed broken- hearted and didnt know what happened I always thought one of the parents knew more. IMO, no one is going to confess to anything. A jury would absolutely weigh in on the side of a baby who wandered off and whose body has yet gone undiscovered in the wilderness. It is a very reasonable doubt. Polygraphs are nor admissible and behavior analysis is hocus pocus to most people.

Do I think the parents or at least one of them know? yes, i do. Now try to prove that to a jury with no body found, no cause of death, "witnesses" with various mental and physical impairments and a "crime scene" of thick woods, creeks, reservoirs, animals and LE who backed the family for weeks and weeks.

Anything i write is just my opinion

I think LE did have suspicion of the parents early on (not to the extent that they were completely certain, of course - that would take time and investigation). IIRC, SB scaled back the searches and redirected the investigation pretty early on (like within a week?). I really don't think that Bowerman was placing the public in danger - besides, he can't go and arrest people on the basis that he thinks they might be a danger to society. He has to do a thorough investigation and unfortunately, that takes a lot of time. If LE was able to incarcerate everyone they thought might be a danger to the public, our jails would be overflowing and our courts inundated.

I wasn't a fan of Penner saying the parents were solid either, but I think he did it for the sake of his investigation, and I've come to terms with that. I also don't think the investigation has been perfect. I think that some evidence was probably lost because of the campground not being secured early on, however, who wants to waste precious time when a toddler's life is thought to be at stake? I think this case is very strange and has been quite challenging for LE, however, I just don't think that they would come out after 7 months of silence with unsubstantiated accusations. MOO.

ETA: Changed SB to Penner since he is the one that said the parents were solid...

 

[desert-blue]

Thanks. I see what you're saying. Following your reasoning, the potential lesser charges may add up to a strong suspicion about what actually happened, but not be enough to charge them for the more serious action. For example, hypothetically, there may be evidence of neglect and lying which could add up to a suspicion that there was an accident covered up, but not enough evidence to make a charge that will hold up in court. They may have to pick the strongest lesser charge, as in your Capone example, if they can't come up with enough evidence for a more serious charge.
JMO

In all honesty, I think there is one key piece of evidence that needs to be found... :-(

 

[gliving]

I disagree w/ the remark that "VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good." If I'd been named a "POI" in such a case, I'd damned sure want a lawyer advising me. In fact, if LE told me I didn't do well on a polygraph, I'd have hired a lawyer right then, and certainly wouldn't have taken a 2nd, 3rd and 4th poly without my attorney being present. For the guilty and innocent alike, things can quickly go sideways when a person becomes a POI/suspect. A good attorney can literally be a life-saver.

Yes, and now that VDK has his own attorney, I predict his attorney will have VDK take another independent poly which he will pass 100%.

 

[haven71]

Which part? About SB saying he was very truthful, or that he gets a free pass when his polygraphs came back?

I don't remember this. Do you have a link?

 

[bluesneakers]

"Never being there???" This almost sounds like he slipped up and said DeOrr was never there?

He was saying he (Vernal) had never been there before.

 

[LisaB]

Where we live, we can drive one mile down into the valley for cell coverage or drive for about 10 minutes to higher ground in the opposite direction to get coverage. Everything between our house and those points are dead zones. All the various mountains around us are what create those dead zones. There are so many spots where it seems like we "should" get coverage, but we don't.

We haven't been told whether they ever went up to the reservoir before they called 911. Personally, I can't imagine they hadn't explored that before their trip into town. It would have been one of the first things we would have done if we were up there for a vacation, and early morning is perfect for that kind of exploring. Anyway, it's possible they did go up there and noticed they didn't get service (disclaimer: I have no idea if they get service at the reservoir or not, my point is simply that it's possible they didn't get service and they knew it).

I think if I woke up with my period, getting to the store for "supplies" would trump a leisurely drive to check out the campground. I'd tell my SO we could drive up AFTER we went to the store.

 

[Lilibet]

I just had a horrible, sick, awful thought... What if they dug a hole, buried the child, covered it up, and then built a campfire on that spot. Nobody was going to put the fire out to dig, because they would assume the fire had been burning all along.

I had the same horrible, sick, awful thought Lisa. I dismissed it as unrealistic since others were there, but my mind went there and I hate that it did.

 

[Dee10]

I'm wondering if the LE got a tip (previous withheld info) to where DeOrr's remains could be located on the mountain? Maybe a witness (the other campers) saw VK/JM somewhere outside of the search area, and the LE have to wait till spring to search?
This could be why LE is waiting to make an arrest.

You maybe on to something. I can't find the link but it was stated that Bowerman, Penner, Bonnevail(?) & the FBI spent the previous or the weekend before that at the campground on snowmobiles. I thought that was so strange, and Bowerman said on Tricia show they were up there recently and there was 4 to 6 feet of snow.

 

[haven71]

SB said he believed IR was being "very truthful" when being interviewed next to his deputy at the picnic table. The rest is MOO.

I don't remember this. Do you have a link?

 

[LisaB]

Parents prevent the offer of a reward.
Parents don't participate in the re-enactment and don't like TV-involvement.
PI quits his job because of untruthfulness of his clients.

In the last thread I was corrected for stating these things. They are NOT FACTS. They are "things Vilt said" which is different.

 

[Ella82]

Does anyone have ideas on motive? If he was made to disappear, it could have been an accident of some sort and/or someone losing their temper. Is that it?

 

[LisaB]

So, I've done some searching on the Idaho Court Records website under DeOrr's name, but wasn't using "Vernal" as a first name. Today I finally used Vernal and discovered he was divorced from a J**** C******* Kunz on 8/29/11 (no children involved). He was born in 1989 so that means he was 22 years old at the time. Sheesh! That sure is young to already be married and divorced!

LOL. I met my first husband at age 18, in 1982. We got engaged that summer, on my 19th birthday, and married the following September, when I was 20. After 15 weeks, we split up, and the divorce was final when I was 21. Full disclosure... my mom found out that we had sex after becoming engaged and insisted on the marriage going off as planned, even after I changed my mind. I never really expected it to last.

 

[haven71]

If it was some sort of accident, where is the grief? Whether your child had drowned, been killed by an animal, or killed any number of ways...I would think the parents would be showing grief no matter what. Their child is GONE. I realize we haven't been privy to their lives since the disappearance, but from what I ascertain from interviews and the 911 call, very little emotion is shown by the parents.

In the first interview, Deorr kind of just had manic speech IMO, perhaps out of nervousness. Jessica looks defeated, like she already knows what happened at that finding her son is a lost cause.

Again, no matter how he disappeared, the lack of emotion has me scratching my head.

 

[Rayemonde]

I think about how cautious and careful SB has been from day one. He has diverted suspicion away from the parents in almost every interview he's given (or at least he's been so vague that it wasn't clear he ever thought they were involved). Even now, it almost pains him to have to disclose that the parents are suspects. I think that SB does not take such accusations lightly and is very aware of the repercussions. I don't believe for a second that he would make a statement like that without a whole lot of evidence to back it up (as in, enough evidence to prosecute). I feel that Klein's arrival kind of sped things up and that if left to his own devices, that SB may have prolonged naming them suspects. I think SB was just observing everything and hoping/praying for someone to rat someone out, and in the meantime, he played "good cop" so as not to tip them off. Once it was obvious that they were the prime suspects (which became clear after Klein's statements), there really was probably little reason for SB to keep it secret any longer. At some point you just have to cut to the chase, so to speak.

As far as the parents' guilty knowledge, I think that when you look at the individual actions of the parents, there is always a way to explain their actions with some amount of credibility, but when you look at the sum of their actions, it really becomes clear, at least to me, that their collective actions are not indicative of parents who are really trying to find their toddler and/or who really have no idea what happened to him.

MOO.

:goodpost:

 

[LisaB]

IMO this rumour about IR going "missing" for an hour was spread by the suspects. So I don't give it much credence, since they have a vested interest in making IR look suspicious.

I think the parents would have noticed noticed if one of their vehicles had gone missing for an hour. And I think it would be pretty difficult to carry a body on a bicycle, especially on that rough terrain.

I do not think IR carried him off on a bike, but a backpack would have made that a POSSIBILITY.

 

[KYPastTracker]

I had the same horrible, sick, awful thought Lisa. I dismissed it as unrealistic since others were there, but my mind went there and I hate that it did.

So did mine, although it was about the rock. But I never voiced it because I figured the dogs would have hit on it.

 

[Sillybilly]

When the sheriff says the parents couldn't tell the same story twice and answered "absolutely" when asked about whether the parents know where their son is, I fully believe he is right. The FBI seems pretty legit too in their conclusion that the parents are untruthful.

<rsbm>

Just to refresh, SB's actual wording wrt the FBI is:

13:54
SB: You know they&#8217;ve been very cooperative. They&#8217;ve been very willing to talk to me and to my office and to my detectives down in Bonneville County so&#8230;not until the first polygraph came out and there was some indication that they were being less than truthful. At that time I was somewhat suspicious but I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, so you know&#8230;just more recently once the FBI concluded theirs and said beyond any doubt they have knowledge and they are being less than truthful.

<bbm>

from:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319129#post12319129

 

[LisaB]

This just blows my mind! It has since Vilt made it known and even more when the sheriff stated he didn't tell them not to do the reward.

Even if Vilt wanted them to pay him back and they didn't have $20,000 sitting around - so what. I don't have that kind of money sitting around but if my son were missing I'd be damned sure I'd figure out a way to get the money even if it meant working my *advertiser censored* off for Vilt himself for the next 10 years. I can't think of any parent I know who wouldn't. IMHO, it's obvious they don't want their son back or at least know there's no way they're getting him back.

Here's what gets me... if they know he is gone and won't be found, what did they have to lose by offering a reward... even from their own pockets... since nobody was ever going to claim it!?

 

[LisaB]

Sensible ones.

Law Enforcement themselves frequently discourage this approach as it can lead to a flurry of calls which waste the time of the investigation.

I've noticed since the absurdity of the McCann case in England that the police are much more careful with their media management in important missing persons cases (e.g Becky Watts)

The public are asked to help in focussed ways where crowd sourcing adds value.

LE stated that they DID NOT ask the parents not to offer a reward or seek nationwide publicity.

 

[LaLaw2000]

I just had a horrible, sick, awful thought... What if they dug a hole, buried the child, covered it up, and then built a campfire on that spot. Nobody was going to put the fire out to dig, because they would assume the fire had been burning all along.

IDK about that, but I do hope the ashes from all of the fires was sifted for evidence someone might have tried to destroy. I don't mean bones or bone fragments either. I mean anything that may have been thrown into the fire. I have a feeling that did not happen (may have), but certainly should have been done, IMO.