ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #19

[LisaB]

I have a question about lawyers. What is a ballpark figure for the retainer? Are we talking $100's or $1000's up front for VDK's lawyer?

One thing this family doesn't seem to have is money and I'm wondering if VDK having a lawyer and JM not is simply down to cost?

Once charged either or both could get a Public Defender if cost is an issue. In this case, they have not been charged, therefore the state is not responsible for providing them with an attorney. I am sure that if/when charges are filed, JM will get a PD.

 

[Paulas88]

Here's what gets me... if they know he is gone and won't be found, what did they have to lose by offering a reward... even from their own pockets... since nobody was ever going to claim it!?

That's a good question. (IMO) I think they just wanted/hoped this would all just go away. They tried to control SM and the (IMO) investigation... like we were all supposed to just forget DeOrr. Not happening. Justice for DeOrr!

ETA: I had my doubts, and thought they might just get away with this. I applaud the LE and all agencies that have contributed to this very difficult case.

 

[ReadySet]

I had the same horrible, sick, awful thought Lisa. I dismissed it as unrealistic since others were there, but my mind went there and I hate that it did.

That's an interesting idea, but I don't know.

There was already a fire ring there for that campsite. If they started another campfire at a place other than the dedicated fire ring, it would be questioned--why did you need another one? And it may not have even been allowed. If they dug up the existing fire ring, I think it would be obvious. JMO

 

[desert-blue]

I just had a horrible, sick, awful thought... What if they dug a hole, buried the child, covered it up, and then built a campfire on that spot. Nobody was going to put the fire out to dig, because they would assume the fire had been burning all along.

Not that they couldn't have built a fire elsewhere, but that campsite has an established fire pit (you can see it in some of the photos - it's not too far from the picnic table). Campers are generally encouraged (or even required) to use the existing fire pits to decrease the chance of wildfires. This campground, however, is pretty remote and I don't think there were any fire restrictions in that area at the time, so it's possible a fire was built somewhere else, but to me it seems not super likely... MOO.

 

[TeaTime]

I disagree w/ the remark that "VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good." If I'd been named a "POI" in such a case, I'd damned sure want a lawyer advising me. In fact, if LE told me I didn't do well on a polygraph, I'd have hired a lawyer right then, and certainly wouldn't have taken a 2nd, 3rd and 4th poly without my attorney being present. For the guilty and innocent alike, things can quickly go sideways when a person becomes a POI/suspect. A good attorney can literally be a life-saver.

Perhaps I should have started that part of my post with "as it stands NOW..." but I thought it was understood that we are talking about the present.

VDK's lawyer isn't able to do anything for him right now as there is nothing he can advise that VDK doesn't already know now, which is to shut the he** up and stop cooperating with LE. Getting a lawyer now doesn't help him re-do anything he has already done, such as many interviews/interrogations, allowing voluntary searches of his home/vehicles/technical equipment and taking 4 polys. This is all water under the bridge and too late for his attorney's advice to make a difference, it is all done.

Plus, attorneys can not be present in the room while the polys are administered.

All his attorney can do now is talk to the media and so far, it appears to me that he does not have a grasp of the facts thus far but is running his mouth anyway. So, not helping at all.

All VDK has to do now is refuse to further cooperate and no one needs a lawyer to refuse to cooperate. If and when he is charged, then he will need representation.

 

[LisaB]

So did mine, although it was about the rock. But I never voiced it because I figured the dogs would have hit on it.

But a burning fire, especially one they might have burned food scraps, paper plates and plastic utensils in would probably be "too much" scent for a dog, and they would likely avoid getting too close to the fire to begin with.

 

[ReadySet]

You maybe on to something. I can't find the link but it was stated that Bowerman, Penner, Bonnevail(?) & the FBI spent the previous or the weekend before that at the campground on snowmobiles. I thought that was so strange, and Bowerman said on Tricia show they were up there recently and there was 4 to 6 feet of snow.

I agree Paula88's idea is a good one. I can't find the link about the snowmobiles either, but I remember it too. It might just a be a tip that they don't find totally credible, but they have to follow up on tips. There could be avalanche danger, they have a duty to keep searchers safe. They might have gone up to look at a possible site.

 

[LisaB]

Not that they couldn't have built a fire elsewhere, but that campsite has an established fire pit (you can see it in some of the photos - it's not too far from the picnic table). Campers are generally encouraged (or even required) to use the existing fire pits to decrease the chance of wildfires. This campground, however, is pretty remote and I don't think there were any fire restrictions in that area at the time, so it's possible a fire was built somewhere else, but to me it seems not super likely... MOO.

Assuming their fire went out while they slept, someone could have buried something under the pit before restarting the fire. I do not know anything you do not, but suppose the parents were to "play act" that Deorr was with them that morning... Perhaps telling him to "stay put while they change the diaper he slept in", and then producing a dirty diaper after the mock-diaper change. Telling him to "stay put in the car because they needed to run to town", then returning from the trip with a bundle they passed off as a sleeping child, who was no longer with them. This could lead GGP and IR to believe he was there.

It is a VERY long shot, but I can't think of many places people would NOT look (especially people who drained the portapotty).

 

[pappa rob]

Money talks and BS walks. This is so messed up I hardly know what to think anymore..

 

[TeaTime]

I agree with your post, TeaTime, but re the polygraphs: we don't know if those were the exact questions asked, and even if they were the answer should have been an unequivocal NO. If DeOrr wandered off and got lost, or got abducted, or got taken by a mountain lion, or got killed by IR and hidden, they should not have waivered over those questions.

Occam's Razor tells me he ran off and is outside the search zone. But the fact that every member of authority (LE and 2 PI's) have put out pretty damning reports about the parents (which would not be done lightly in my opinion and is presumably with the backing of the FBI) does rather suggest that there is something not right here.

I've said before we should attach less importance on the actual polygraphs, and more on the fact that all these authorities have met the parents, spent time with them, questioned them, seen their body language, heard some lies, got frustrated with the changing stories, and come to the conclusion that they may well be involved somehow.

I dunno. I'm sitting back until something else happens. The 1pm sighting has confused the heck out of me too!

I am not sure that being convinced that the child wandered off and is still on the mountain would not interfere with a 'no' response.

No matter what LE says, it is all opinion at this time; nothing more than educated guesses as far as we know. And these guesses are based, in part, on a complete absence of any evidence to prove an alternate theory.

 

[Bootsctr]

I just rewatched the video and it looks like at 3 20 minutes Mom does something with her cell phone without checking it. Did it ring? I didn't hear it but I would have looked at it. It could have been the call or text that little DeOrr was found.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. I think she had it on vibrate because I didn't hear it ring either. But, you are absolutely correct, she never looked to see who was calling, or even say I need to check this call, she simply turned it off.

 

[desert-blue]

The parents or the family could put up reward money right now for any tip or information that leads to the location of DeOrr and/or which leads to an arrest or charges.

 

[ReadySet]

LOL, posters keep correcting this but it keeps popping up. For the sake of accuracy, SB did not say the parents were "solid." It was Deputy Penner. Besides, IMO, saying someone is "solid" is pretty open to interpretation.

LEADORE, Idaho -- Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner asked people not to speculate about the parents of a 2-year-old boy who went missing during a fishing trip six days ago.
"We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/deorr-kunz-missing-family/30239047/

 

[desert-blue]

LOL, posters keep correcting this but it keeps popping up. For the sake of accuracy, SB did not say the parents were "solid." It was Deputy Penner. Besides, IMO, saying someone is "solid" is pretty open to interpretation.

LEADORE, Idaho -- Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner asked people not to speculate about the parents of a 2-year-old boy who went missing during a fishing trip six days ago.
"We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/deorr-kunz-missing-family/30239047/

You're right - thanks for bringing that up! I just edited one of my responses to reflect that....

 

[TeaTime]

I have a question about lawyers. What is a ballpark figure for the retainer? Are we talking $100's or $1000's up front for VDK's lawyer?

One thing this family doesn't seem to have is money and I'm wondering if VDK having a lawyer and JM not is simply down to cost?

A criminal case such as this one may turn out to be can start with retainers of $15K-$25K. Of course, some lawyer may charge only a small retainer of $5K but every time DVK's lawyer speaks to the media, the client, the clients parents, the PIs - whomever and whatever actions he may take such as letters, phone calls, travel time etc., the retainer is being drained at his hourly rate. When the retainer fee, which is held in a non-interest bearing account, gets low the client has to come up with more funds.

 

[Rayemonde]

LOL, posters keep correcting this but it keeps popping up. For the sake of accuracy, SB did not say the parents were "solid." It was Deputy Penner. Besides, IMO, saying someone is "solid" is pretty open to interpretation.

LEADORE, Idaho -- Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner asked people not to speculate about the parents of a 2-year-old boy who went missing during a fishing trip six days ago.
"We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/deorr-kunz-missing-family/30239047/

JMO but I bet the family asked LE to do something about the SM accusations, so LE put that statement out to keep the family happy and co-operating....

The family were obsessed by SM from the beginning. I bet they got a shock when Klein made made the SM situation so much worse for them, after they begged him to please make the rumours stop!

 

[GennaB]

Once charged either or both could get a Public Defender if cost is an issue. In this case, they have not been charged, therefore the state is not responsible for providing them with an attorney. I am sure that if/when charges are filed, JM will get a PD.

I've had family in deep trouble with the law and it was thousands to get a lawyer on the case and then they had to pay thousands more later. It was worth it for a good attorney! Agree, they can both definitely get a public defender, paid for by the state if charges are filed against them. In this case, if I were them, I would definitely want to be able to hire my own attorney. Public defenders are appointed so they would not get a choice of who represents them. Since they take on so many cases, they rarely have a lot of one-on-one face time with their clients and not a lot of time to gather what they need for a good defense. But you never know, they may be able to come up with the cash needed for representation of their choosing. Some good information on private vs public attorneys here: http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=31757

 

[LisaB]

I've had family in deep trouble with the law and it was thousands to get a lawyer on the case and then they had to pay thousands more later. It was worth it for a good attorney! Agree, they can both definitely get a public defender, paid for by the state if charges are filed against them. In this case, if I were them, I would definitely want to be able to hire my own attorney. Public defenders are appointed so they would not get a choice of who represents them. Since they take on so many cases, they rarely have a lot of one-on-one face time with their clients and not a lot of time to gather what they need for a good defense. But you never know, they may be able to come up with the cash needed for representation of their choosing. Some good information on private vs public attorneys here: http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=31757

I meant to suggest that, if money is an issue, they may HAVE to wait for charges to be filed (at which time they can request a Public Defender) to retain an attorney.

 

[TeaTime]

If it was some sort of accident, where is the grief? Whether your child had drowned, been killed by an animal, or killed any number of ways...I would think the parents would be showing grief no matter what. Their child is GONE. I realize we haven't been privy to their lives since the disappearance, but from what I ascertain from interviews and the 911 call, very little emotion is shown by the parents.

In the first interview, Deorr kind of just had manic speech IMO, perhaps out of nervousness. Jessica looks defeated, like she already knows what happened at that finding her son is a lost cause.

Again, no matter how he disappeared, the lack of emotion has me scratching my head.

All the things you describe are emotions. Remember the first 'look' we had of the parents was 3 days after the child disappeared. JM looks drained, despondent and hopeless which I would expect of a parent whose toddler had been alone in the mountain terrain for 3 days and nights. VDK is teary eyed and talking non-stop about things that we think are not important but he is drained, despondent and exhausted too. You can bet they have not slept and are barely functioning.

My take is that he is so impressed with the search technology that he is hoping that such fancy stuff will in fact find his child. Wishful thinking and hope is all he has.

 

[Bootsctr]

No doubt they are tired and exhausted, but yet VDK seems a little perturbed at the press after a seemingly non-ending ramble about the search, and asks what else do you guys want to know? And JM is tired, I am positive. But, I wanted her to look at the camera and BEG and PLEAD that whomever had DeOrr to please return him and PLEASE don't hurt him. WE LOVE HIM! WE miss him. We need him in our lives for us to be a family. Bring him back to us. Her demeanor is just... odd. Pardon me if that offends, but something is just off with both of them... And yes maybe I am twisting what I am seeing knowing they are considered suspects. It's more than just being exhausted and tired... In specific to the baby blanket, VDK referred to it sort of like a true replica of a security blanket. Did they have 2 blankets just alike so JM could wash one when the other was dirty? I know he was tired. He had a hard time saying the name of the search & rescue team. But, it was as if he wanted to talk about EVERYTHING but DeOrr and he didn't let JM get in a word edgewise. She seems so subdued. Again, hoping I am wrong and DeOrr is found soon and this nightmare can come to an end.