ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[Donjeta]

First of all, IR never said he couldn't answer ANY questions, and second:

question: "Did you advise or instruct Isaac Reinwand not to talk to the media?"
answer: "No."

This is a bit different than what actually happened. IR didn't answer specific questions. He refused to answer three specific questions (iirc). Am I the only one seeing the difference here? I will also repeat that IR never said that LE told him not to talk to the media or not to answer those specific question, which means it's quite possible that his attorney did. Or that LE told him not to answer those specific questions (rather than not talking to the media at all).

He says that his attorney told him not to speak to the press in the beginning.

EATON: We’re hearing from you for the first time. Is there a reason you wanted to be quiet?

REINWAND:It was mostly just because of how the social media was reacting and my attorney said it might be better not to say anything until they know exactly what’s going on with the case.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/isaac-reinwand-i-had-nothing-to-do-with-deorrs-disappearance/

 

[Donjeta]

Link?

SB said parents were very cooperative yes, but NEVER "very truthful". It is consistent though, parents are cooperative answering LE questions by keep answering with lies.

I picture VDK being "very forthcoming" with rambling explanations to something other than what they were asked.

 

[kammiemc]

I picture VDK being "very forthcoming" with rambling explanations to something other than what they were asked.

Hahaha. That is so true. I have a feeling if you asked him something simple, you'd get a confusingly embellished over-explanation.


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[desert-blue]

I'm starting to wonder if GGP was the first call. Originally, I thought it was an error or just not clear when Klein gave the list.

Let me propose two scenarios.

GGP knows Deorr is missing, but has no idea why at the time. He tries to convince JM and DK to call 911. They still haven't had a chance to figure out what to do or what to say, so they try to convince GGP to hold off "until they look a while longer". GGP gets frustrated and says if you aren't calling, I am. Now the parents might feel forced to call. They need to give 911 the "correct" information/story. Maybe GGP didn't really speak to 911, just told them that JM was calling and she could talk to them. Since SB has stated the parents are lying, we don't even know if DK hauled down the road to make a call, or if he was already MIA from camp, maybe already hiding Deorr, or if he was sitting at camp the entire time.

Scenario two. GGP knows or suspects what happened and is convinced calling 911 is the best way to handle the situation. To prevent GGP from saying anything incriminating, JM and DK are once again forced to call 911 to cover their butts.

I suspect people who are more concerned about what people on SM are saying than they are their "missing" child might be more concerned about how it would look if they didn't call 911 after he had been "missing" for so long. IR was there and could potentially destroy their story about how long Deorr had been "missing" before calling 911.

I'm wondering if GGP was the first to call as well. Sure wish we knew what he said...

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The EIN transcript is a bit misleading here.



That makes it sound like it's something new but the transcript is not accurate.

What they really said in the video:



It still sounds like he's heard GGP is doing worse but the oxygen is more like an afterthought than the news.

(And Nate, what a leading question...)

If GGP would die, would JM and VDK then accuse him of having done something to little Deorr? :thinking: Are they waiting for that convenient opportunity (IF it's NOT the truth)??

 

[forsaken]

If GGP would die, would JM and VDK then accuse him of having done something to little Deorr? :thinking:

They already tried lol.

But I believe GGP agreed to take one for the team if it ever comes to it. Someone convinced him it is the best, for the "future" of the younglings, thinking GGP might get a pass.

 

[desert-blue]

They already tried lol.

But I believe GGP agreed to take one for the team if it ever comes to it. Someone convinced him it is the best, for the "future" of the younglings, thinking GGP might get a pass.

This is one of my fears with this case.

 

[MBK]

If GGP would die, would JM and VDK then accuse him of having done something to little Deorr? :thinking: Are they waiting for that convenient opportunity (IF it's NOT the truth)??

Is it my opinion that GGP is prime candidate for elder abuse. I hope someone is looking out for him.

 

[Hatfield]

I'm wondering if GGP was the first to call as well. Sure wish we knew what he said...

I find it funny we never heard about the GGP call in the first interview. We only heard a marathon explanation of why VDK had to drive down a road to get a signal. Then we find out the signal is obviously ok with her phone. And now we know that the signal is probably ok with GGP phone too.

So all this talk about a signal seems like BS.

I'm kind of wondering if maybe little Deorr was still in the truck as they pretended he was lost and maybe GGP said "Look I am going to call 911 about this" so then VDK takes off pretending he needs a signal but really took off to go deposit Deorr before authorities get there.

Just another scenario that could have happened.

It would be good if we could hear GGP 911 call.

 

[Donjeta]

And what about IR? Did his phone have a signal

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Do you have a link for that? I thought it could be a problem in later stages of the illness in *some* patients, not the early stages.

We don't know that ggp has been diagnosed with any kind of dementia. There are other reasons for poor memory. It seems like a bit of a stretch to try and link memory problems with toddler killing.

Some peer-reviewed studies:
http://www.jaapl.org/content/17/2/183.full.pdf+html [FULL]
http://www.jaapl.org/content/17/2/183.short [ABSTRACT]

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/157/1/86.short [ABSTRACT ONLY]

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.153.2.243 [ABSTRACT ONLY]

Just a few I found through a quick search. Also, it's something I'm personally very aware of through professional experience in nursing homes.

I also would not link poor memory, or even dementia with toddler killing. But based on IR's interview, I do think it's possible that RW was a participant in whatever crime occurred- accident, intentional, death, cover-up, or otherwise. If he has a form of dementia (which you are correct, has not been confirmed), it has the potential of offering a slim, possible hint towards an explanation. Or it could be completely irrelevant!
I'm not willing to say that I believe RW participated in causing the death of DeOrr, but I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibilities, either.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

I did actually quickly Google it before I asked, but was unable to find anything about violence being common in early stage dementia. Rather than rudely accuse a fellow poster of being wrong, I asked them for their sources. As we are entitled to do here on WS.

I didn't take offense to you asking me for sources.

 

[Rayemonde]

Some peer-reviewed studies:
http://www.jaapl.org/content/17/2/183.full.pdf+html [FULL]
http://www.jaapl.org/content/17/2/183.short [ABSTRACT]

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/157/1/86.short [ABSTRACT ONLY]

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.153.2.243 [ABSTRACT ONLY]

Just a few I found through a quick search. Also, it's something I'm personally very aware of through professional experience in nursing homes.

I also would not link poor memory, or even dementia with toddler killing. But based on IR's interview, I do think it's possible that RW was a participant in whatever crime occurred- accident, intentional, death, cover-up, or otherwise. If he has a form of dementia (which you are correct, has not been confirmed), it has the potential of offering a slim, possible hint towards an explanation. Or it could be completely irrelevant!
I'm not willing to say that I believe RW participated in causing the death of DeOrr, but I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibilities, either.

Thanks, but I still can't see anything about violence in *early* dementia in those links. Just violence in dementia that had advanced to the stage that acute hospitalisation is needed (in the first study), and third study found that violence and verbal outbursts are more likely when hallucinations and delusions are present - although it did note that violence was not correlated with the severity of the dementia, but that doesn't mean that any people with *early* dementia were even included in the study - it might be referring to people with more or less severe advanced dementia.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Thanks, but I still can't see anything about violence in *early* dementia in those links. Just violence in dementia that had advanced to the stage that acute hospitalisation is needed (in the first study), and third study found that violence and verbal outbursts are more likely when hallucinations and delusions are present - although it did note that violence was not correlated with the severity of the dementia, but that doesn't mean that any people with *early* dementia were even included in the study - it might be referring to people with more or less severe advanced dementia.

Okie doke! I know that one of the studies I found specifically referred to patients with mild to moderate dementia, but I'm not sure if that's one I ended up linking. When I pop on tonight, I'll go back through and find it.

 

[kammiemc]

Okie doke! I know that one of the studies I found specifically referred to patients with mild to moderate dementia, but I'm not sure if that's one I ended up linking. When I pop on tonight, I'll go back through and find it.

Focus group of one, but my father is in the earlier stages of what they believe is Alzheimer's (at least he is on the meds for it). He has frequent delusions, forgetfulness, but sometimes he is just fine. He drives (don't get me started). He does get frustrated and have anger sometimes. Never even a hint of violence. No one has said anything to us about the possibility of violence.

He would make a terrible witness because you never know for sure whether he is remembering something with clarity or remembering something he completely fabricated in his mind.


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[renarde]

Earlier today, the boyfriend/"adoptive dad" took a plea in the Colton Turner case... Twenty years. His lawyer said the boyfriend was the one who led police to Colton's body and had it not been for that, the little boy might have never been found. The lawyer stated Michael was remorseful about what had happened. He will probably testify when the mother's case comes up.

"Police say Meagan Work changed her stories many times about what happened to Colton but it was Michael who led them to a shallow grave where his body was found. Michael pled guilty to two counts of tampering with evidence stemming from burying Colton’s body before removing him and burying him in a different location. He also pled guilty to 2nd degree Reckless Injury to a Child by Omission, a lesser charge than Intentional Injury to a Child, a 1st degree crime."

http://kxan.com/2016/02/26/boyfriend-charged-in-colton-turner-case-expected-to-plead-guilty/

 

[cobalt sky]

Klein Investigations and Consulting There were three 911 calls which are public - 14:22, 14:26 and 14:28 hours on the 10th. January 11 at 5:25pm

BOS: Who made the 3rd phone call to 911. Was there a disposable phone in the hands of anyone while camping?
Klein Investigations and Consulting There were three calls made to 911. First, Vernal. Second, Jessica. Third, the grandfather.

Note: Regardless of the above Klein statement, the 911 call, by Jessica, audio clearly states in the beginning that the call was received (by JM) at 2:28 p.m! Therefore, JM had to have been last according to the first statement by Klein above.

Link to Jessica's 911 call audio:
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

I f we assume that Klein's times are correct 2:22, 2:26 and 2:28, and we know JM's was at 2:28 (because of the time stamp on her 911 call), I wonder who made the first call - DK or GGPA?

So, Klein either made an error on the time stamps or else he made an error on the order (or both)?

The 911 call situation has been driving me crazy for a while now. I doesn't seem possible that JM's call was last; in the beginning of JM's call, the 911 operator does not mention that a call regarding a missing child has already been received. I would think she would have, since further into JM's call when DK was on the phone with the other operator she made a point to mention it to JM. And she put JM on hold a few times during the call to communicate with others at the 911 center so it's not like she was out of the loop as to what was going on. Based on it appearing during JM's 911 call that DK's came in after hers, it doesn't seem possible that her call was last. Or, at the very least, that her call came AFTER DK's. What are we missing here? Was JM calling from DK's phone, and vice versa?

I thought maybe there would be a difference between the cell phone record times (time call was placed) and the 911 center times (time call started with 911), and that Klein's times were actually cell phone record times, as opposed to 911 center times. (not sure how that works, if there would be a difference or not). But Klein's time of 2:28 matches JM's 911 call time of 14:28. So it appears that he was using the 911 center times.

I really wish this could be cleared up. Klein has been made aware of the questions regarding the 911 times but afaik has not clarified. He stated the calls were at the times of 2:22, 2:26, and 2:28. He stated the calls were in this order: first Vernal, second Jessics, third GGP (or someone calling from their phones). On JM's 911 call the time is clearly stated as 2:28. So, based on his own words, it is impossible that JM's call was second, unless he is using call times other than the 911 center times. It's like everything else with this case, any answer we get just begets more questions. IMO.

 

[Beezneez]

JM had to have been the first call that got through. It's possible that VDK & GGP both called prior to JM getting through, but the calls were dropped. Then VDK leaves to "haul down the road" like a reckless maniac & JM was able to get through. That would explain a possible record of outgoing 911 calls prior to the JM conversation that we heard.

 

[The Apparition]

Earlier today, the boyfriend/"adoptive dad" took a plea in the Colton Turner case... Twenty years. His lawyer said the boyfriend was the one who led police to Colton's body and had it not been for that, the little boy might have never been found. The lawyer stated Michael was remorseful about what had happened. He will probably testify when the mother's case comes up.

"Police say Meagan Work changed her stories many times about what happened to Colton but it was Michael who led them to a shallow grave where his body was found. Michael pled guilty to two counts of tampering with evidence stemming from burying Colton’s body before removing him and burying him in a different location. He also pled guilty to 2nd degree Reckless Injury to a Child by Omission, a lesser charge than Intentional Injury to a Child, a 1st degree crime."

http://kxan.com/2016/02/26/boyfriend-charged-in-colton-turner-case-expected-to-plead-guilty/

Well here's hoping for a hard 20 years. Not exactly breaking news but inmates usually frown upon child murderers in the joint, so it might be a little dicey for the tough guy now that he's dealing with grown men.

 

[Tr.]

This discussion today makes me wonder what strategies LE have in play to move this along and what is wise and not wise to discuss and who may be lurking..IDK

- To the the point of the 911 calls, I think it was asked in the first VDK/JM interview who had called and JM replied that her call was at 2:36. VDK stated that when he called the operator informed him that JM was already on the line. therefore it was speculated that GGP was the first caller just ahead of JM. And that would be no surprise imo if JM and VDK returned from the creek walk and began their ruse by creating confusion and panic in GGP and IR. Imo GGP reacted as any frantic parent would and made the call immediately.

- To the point of GGP being involved in a wrong doing or cover up..I don't believe so. I believe that GGP has been played and that he firmly believes that no wrong doing occurred. I also suspect that he may the alibi witness to a 8:00am sighting of Deorr at the campground and therefore the reason for the 8:00am timeline. This may extend to IR as well but either/or I think that both GGP and IR have been played and I suspect that what they think they saw wasn't as it seems.

-IMO the last sighting of Deorr alive outside of the camp was in Leadore by the store clerk that saw a man and a child in a black truck at around 6:30 the night before Deorr disappeared.
In interview #1 with JM/VDK ...JM is asked if there is anything she wanted to mention ..anything of importance and this sighting is what she brought up. VDK admits in this same interview that this was indeed him in the sighting but says that it was the following day and disputes the store clerks account of the sighting as to who and when.
This dispute is crucial to the entire timeline because VDK wants it believed that JM was with him and Deorr during that sighting. He says "We went as a family to pick up a few things".
The store clerk and their account of that sighting is the only thing that links Deorr to a time when he was not with both parents imo by anyone outside the camp.

So, rolling with this scenario for the moment we have the family arriving at the camp around 6pm. Everyone's hungry and tired and they decide to start dinner and maybe need some things. Deorr is still asleep from the long trip so VDK runs back to the store with him in the car seat while JM stays behind to start things. Maybe VDK is tired , hungry, and angry that JM didn't pack the food..maybe. Deorr wakes up, uncomfortable and hungry after now three hours in the car seat and moms not there to change him, feed him, or comfort him.
So what the store clerk saw could have been extremely accurate.imo..."a dirty, crying baby in a black truck"...(with a man).

Whatever happened next happened on the way back to the camp. And whatever that was put VDK into self-preservation mode.
If this were not so then there would be no cause to dispute the store clerks sighting so profoundly. JM with cameras rolling chose to bring up the store clerks story but in doing so she appears ready to debunk the entire account in defense of VDK when suddenly VDK jumps in to dispute only the timeline. A not so well rehearsed corroboration..imo

So, how did JM get on board with all this if she were back at camp when when something went wrong? Simply put she got played and she knows it now..imo
I believe it's possible that VDK duped her into thinking that Deorr found one of his mom's pills in the truck and put it in his mouth. Maybe he claims to have tried to pump the boys stomach and thereby injured his ribs and/or internal organs in the process of trying to save him from an overdose. Making JM believe such a tale would insure her total cooperation because now she's responsible and that sends her in to self-preservation mode.

If Deorr suffered a fracture injury and/or internal organ injury that wasn't as severe but steadily worsened as the night rolled on then I suppose he may have been able to make a trip to the reservoir and back as suggested by the track dogs. Or maybe that walk made things worse and that's why it was the only scent they found. Then again how far could he walk in those boots anyway?

In this scenario the next morning was all a ruse and the trip to Leadore part of an alibi. I have no link to the report of VDK and JM seen pumping gas but it only takes one to pump the gas and usually one will run in to shop for something imo...unless your just there to be seen maybe. And nobody at the store saw that adorable baby boy who should have been up, cleaned up, fed and very active at that time.
This is why there's no good story for who cooked breakfast ...etc (per SM) ...there's just not much to tell.

In this scenario;
VDK may never crack but I believe JM suspected as early as the first interview that VDK's story about what happened on the way back from the store is all bs. She can't be sure and unless convinced that she's not responsible she may never talk either.
The first interview is very telling imo..and while this scenario sounds strange, this case is strange, the characters are strange and I suppose my imagination is strange too.
But i just can't help but wonder why JM simply cant stop looking at VDK's right hand during that interview as she clutches the blanket she brought her baby home from the hospital wrapped in...idk

The receipt from that morning trip to the store in Leadore will help to calculate time and distance in searching for Deorr...imo

Feel free to shoot holes because if this is wrong then Im definitely back to the Mountain Lion theory.