ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - # 25

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They're both lying. It appears that way to me and LE statements have backed that up. At this stage IMO I don't think it matters who is "more" guilty. They both know exactly what happened but aren't saying - they're both guilty, maybe to different degrees and of different acts, but they're still both guilty.

This is a very general thing, but I feel sorry for JM on one level (not on every other level, what she's presumably done and what she's doing now is unforgivable). Society puts a lot of expectations on women to want to be mothers. It's assumed at every step of the way during adulthood that you're trying to become pregnant, want to be pregnant, or if you're excited about something it's that you're pregnant. I think it's very very easy to go along with that without examining yourself and your suitability to parenthood before it's too late and a child exists.

There are lot of mothers out there that aren't maternal - but most of them still do a good job anyway because they take responsibility for their choices. Of course it's very wrong for women who discover they're not maternal too late to kill, harm, or abandon their children (obviously), but I think it would be a good thing if wider society stopped simply assuming every woman should be or wants to be a mother by default. Women who choose not to reproduce because they know they won't be good mothers should be praised and lauded, not criticised harshly as selfish as they so often are. They're the ones doing the right thing, and more women should be encouraged to really examine the choice of motherhood. It can never happen, but you really should have to jump through hoops to become eligible for parenthood. Nature makes it too damn easy.
 
When it comes to great grandpa I do have to wonder if someone thinks throwing suspicion on him for DeOrr's disappearance is because he's old and frail and the justice system would never put him in prison for this.
To some people it seems everyone is dispensable.

I can't imagine the toll it's taken on RW or anyone not responsible or covering up for that matter.

Okay back to catching up.

JMO

I get where you're coming from, but I honestly don't know what age has to do with our justice system. And it's not like he's 95 and on his death bed. So he uses a little O2, not that big a deal, IMO. And, justice is justice. I know what Sheriff B has stated about him, but then Sheriff B has said a lot of things, and they don't necessarily always mean that much. You have to admit, Sheriff B is pretty smooth, and he holds it all close to the vest... JMO
 
I get where you're coming from, but I honestly don't know what age has to do with our justice system. And it's not like he's 95 and on his death bed. So he uses a little O2, not that big a deal, IMO. And, justice is justice. I know what Sheriff B has stated about him, but then Sheriff B has said a lot of things, and they don't necessarily always mean that much. You have to admit, Sheriff B is pretty smooth, and he holds it all close to the vest... JMO
I agree with you but can see them thinking they'll never convict him. He's too old and frail and they'll just think with him that he wasn't watching him close enough, let him wander off and get lost, or whatever they're thinking today.


JMO
 
But the thing is, the abduction from the campground scenario makes no sense whatsoever! I don't think (gosh, I hope) that a jury would find that this creates reasonable doubt. I just wonder if they watched and listened to other interview of parents who lost a child. The bit about "he could do nothing wrong in our eyes" (sorry if this is a misquote, but it's an approximation) . .. seems like something a parent would say if their teenager was a runaway!

I thought that was off as well, doesn't seem age appropriate speaking of a 2 1/2 y/o child... which is still a baby, IMO. But then I don't think the parents are age appropriate either, they seem to have more of a teenager mentality. Maybe they're emotionally underdeveloped, as in just immature and self-centered, which unfortunately seems to be a very common thing with today's young people. Regardless of the cause I can't ignore that there appears to be at least some dysfunctional role reversal going on, i.e., attempting to make baby Deorr older than he really is, thus trying to make themselves less culpable... only in their eyes of course ... JMO.
 
I have been following this one from the beginning - this case reminds me so much of Noah Thomas' disappearance. Neglect-accident-panic-coverup. Maintain the story to the end, because you know, omg do you know that the punishment that you will give to yourself, knowing that you let your baby down, that you failed him, even though it had never even occurred to you that something like this could happen is so much worse than anything LE can possible dole out.

IMHO, I do believe that VDK and JM are guilty of panicking, hiding a body, and misleading LE and the public. That being said, I think that little Deorr Perished accidentally, either in a hot car (because he was sleeping peacefully, and they felt he was comfortable and safe there), or by the accidental discharge of a loaded gun (maybe from mom's purse or in the tent with the camping supplies)

I lean towards these scenarios for the following reasons:

1) in either scenario, one or more adults would/could face charges for neglect, amoung other things
2) for the hot car scenario, I have, when my children were very young, either: driven around aimlessly because they were asleep, and I didn't dare wake them up, or, sat in my parked car with the windows down, in a shady spot, for a half hour or so, because sometimes waking a sleeping toddler (especially if they had been overtired and especially difficult that day) is just inviting disaster. Perhaps VDK and JM did ask GGP to sit with him in the truck while they went for their walk, but, after the first few minutes, GGP elected to check in on him every once in a while, and continued to set up camp, or use the restroom, and then suddenly, it was too late. In that case, a terrible tragedy, and I can see how one might want to protect their family member ("it was an accident, it's no-ones fault. We know that you are a trusted and responsible adult, no-one blames you" They clean up, they cover-up, and because the instructions weren't clear enough, they all call 911 at the same time. Then, everything got too real, the story got too much press, and there is no turning back.

3. With the gun scenario, i can see it playing out the same way- whomever owned the hypothetical gun shouldn't have had it loaded, it should have had a safety, it should have been locked up, and it should never have been in a place where little hands could get it. While I understand that no physical evidence has been found that corroborates this theory, I believe that there was a considerable amount of time that elapsed before 911 was called. Enough time to perhaps dispose of a tent and its contents, park a vehicle over the spot, and have the team meeting: "it was an accident, it's no-ones fault. We know that you are a trusted and responsible adult, no-one blames you" They clean up, they cover-up, and because the instructions weren't clear enough, they all call 911 at the same time. Then, everything got too real, the story got too much press, and there is no turning back. Only IR, who didn't have a family members feelings to protect, said "nope. I was fishing. I have no idea what you are talking about. This coversation never happened." MOO

While I don't think that anyone involved in this inner circle should have been nominated "parent of the year", I firmly believe that there was no malicious intent here. Little Deorr was loved, and is loved by his extended family, his siblings, etc. People screw up, and make bad choices. Lying about what happened is not going to bring back this little angel, and hopefully at some point, one of them will step up to the plate, ask for a plea bargain, and lay it all out on the table; because even a mediocre parent would be tortured by the thought of their beautiful baby being eaten by vultures and worms.

I know that I am rambling a bit, but I also wanted to touch on the topic of little Deorr trying to cheer up mama.... My children have always been loved, and safe, and cared for. They have never experienced any real pain or anxiety, nobody fights or swears around them. However, even from a very young age, all of my children, if they saw my tears (PMS may have been a factor in these moments of weakness), my children would hug me, and say "don't cry mommy, everything will be okay" and "I love you so much", etc. The more nurturing of my kids would maybe rub my back, the more animated child would try to make me laugh. When my kids stepped up to the plate, and did and said these things, it reminded me that I had taught them that. I said those same words to comfort them. I would move mountains to bring back a smile. That my children would do the same for me meant that I had done something right. I taught them kindness, and love, and empathy.. If someone were to try to turn that around on me and say that my children must be neglected, damaged, scared, abused because they show compassion- it just couldn't be further from the truth. At the age of sweet little Deorr, manipulation for self preservation wouldn't be his motive. Someone had made him laugh and smile when he was sad, when he fell. He wanted to make mama smile when she was unhappy, because that's what mama (or at least someone in his life) had done for him. If he had been neglected and abused and unloved, if no one had treated him with kindness in his short little life, he may not have wanted so badly to make mama all better. JMO

Also, (I promise that this is my last point), as far as JM "knowing where the body is" this may be the speculative outcome of a line of questioning by LE or Klein that I imagine goes something like this:
(LE) "so, you say your son was alive and well when you arrived at your campsite, right? And you say that you have not given/sold him to another person, correct? And we haven't found him, even though we have used every resource at our disposal. So, let me ask you this- wouldn't it be fair to say that you know that your son has almost definitely perished by now, and that you know that his body is somewhere on this property?"
(JM) "yes he was here, no, I wouldn't sell my baby. I know he can't have survived in the elements, yes, I guess that he has to still be on this property"

In summary:
I have to believe that JM and VDK loved their baby. That they may have been frustrated or short with him sometimes, but would never dream of hurting him on purpose. Why go through the hassle of taking a toddler camping, away from the TV and iPad that can keep him occupied and quiet at home, to bring him to a location where he needs constant attention "stay back from the fire", "don't go near the water" "eeew, don't put that in your mouth" , "don't trip on the tree roots and rocks" - if he was an "inconvenience" as some are implying, why not dump him with a sitter? They love(d) him, they taught him compassion. Something terrible happened, and someone got all "Olivia Pope" and took the reins, made a plan, gave everyone their script, carried out the dirty work, maybe threatened to testify against anyone who broke character..... But, Someone tries too hard to "sell" the story, offers too many little details. They can't possibly keep it consistent if more details keep getting added. But, after the shock wears off, and the memories start to hurt too much, resentment starts to build. Loyalties start to feel misplaced. I do believe that we are starting to see it all unravel.
JMO JMHO MOO
 
I thought that was off as well, doesn't seem age appropriate speaking of a 2 1/2 y/o child... which is still a baby, IMO. But then I don't think the parents are age appropriate either, they seem to have more of a teenager mentality. Maybe they're emotionally underdeveloped, as in just immature and self-centered, which unfortunately seems to be a very common thing with today's young people. Regardless of the cause I can't ignore that there appears to be at least some dysfunctional role reversal going on, i.e., attempting to make baby Deorr older than he really is, thus trying to make themselves less culpable... only in their eyes of course ... JMO.

Yes, there are recurring themes here and we get to see more of them in the last interview with JM and VDK who get to talk a lot. I think JM or her Mom might have told VDK off for not letting JM speak in the first interview with Nate, so this is why JM spoke more and VDK apologises for interrupting her in the recent interview. But he can't help blabbing on and for both of them it's about "impression management". As has been mentioned, "we are great loving parents, I still buy presents for my child. I love the car noises. I buy nuggets because I forget he is not there..." He is buying nuggets because he has forgotten his child is missing? Go figure? I bet the Behav analysis troops at the FBI are doing a ROFLOL about that!
Another recurring theme is JM and not stepping up to the plate to be a parent from all we have heard. Families go haywire and out of balance when parents expect to be looked after by children. So spot on neesaki about her emotional state that so many have mentioned. How could anyone see a toddler as responsible for "cheering me up" ? Like, Midge M and kammiemc, it's sad and rings alarm bells. The mention of immaturity and self-centredness also reminds me of Klein's last interview where he said "millennials" can't step up and take responsibility for their actions. He said that even when people have made terrible decisions it's better to come clean and own up and to tell the truth under any circumstance. This was a thinly veiled message to JM and VDK to step up, act like adults and tell the truth and an accusation that they were acting to save their own skins before anything else. It doesn't look like the parents are willing to step up so the thaw, along with the searches, can't come soon enough!
 
Been lurking on this case for a long time, and wanted to bring up something from this last interview. Did anyone else notice that JM says they have searched for Little Deorr "a thousand times more than the police have"....yet a minute later VDK is saying they "never search unless LE is with them" ??? How can those statements line up at all? I mean, OBVIOUSLY "a thousand times more" would be an exaggeration, that isn't my point. My point is that they can't have searched ANY more than LE if LE is always with them searching. These two are literally making it up as they go.
 
When LE first got to the campground it would be a matter of SOP to separate all four of the people there and get each individual's statement of what happened and when it happened. JMO, but the stories would conflict from the beginning and that would be a huge red flag for LE. The reason I don't think the four were separated at the beginning is Chief Penner's statement that the parents were 'solid', meaning they were telling the truth about what actually happened. Why would he even say this when it has turned out to be that they are lying?

The parents could have refused to answer any and all questions after the first statement given after the 911 call. Common sense would tell the parents that if they refused to cooperate with LE, it would point to deception and guilt. So the parents talked with LE, continued to be interviewed, and even took polygraphs all the while continuing to lie. They still continue the deception to this day, IMO.

The interview would have been much better if we could have seen Vernal and Jessica's face from the front instead of only the side. I wonder why it was set up this way? I have never in my life seen parent's who continue to lie as much as these two when their baby is missing unless they are guilty of something. I still think the parents either sold little DeOrr or staged an abduction (re-homing) for money. Maybe that is how they can come across as so very cold and unfeeling. Maybe they know he is okay or he is at least not dead. I seriously do not believe he is on that mountain at all and that there are others involved. Only time will tell, if at all.

I know I am alone in this thinking, but there I am. Even Sheriff Bowerman alluded to the possibility of it being something else, IIRC.

I place my faith in Sheriff Bowerman and the FBI. No one else.

JMO

You aren't alone in your thinking. I think there is a very real possibility of a staged abduction or something of that nature. I've thought so from the beginning and I think their extremely odd behavior supports something like this. I always thought that at the time of the very first interview, they felt there was still a possibility of getting him back alive and well. Not so much now....

I'm not excusing their behavior in ANY way. They are no less guilty in my mind if something like this happened. I just think this is a possibility.

I do have a hard time believing it's something sexual like a pedophile ring etc. as some have suggested. I know there are some sick people out there, but I can't imagine both of his parents being involved in such a thing. My mind just can't fathom that. I guess I don't want to believe that people can look even halfway normal and be that sick and twisted. I'm not naive to the fact that it does happen.


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Been lurking on this case for a long time, and wanted to bring up something from this last interview. Did anyone else notice that JM says they have searched for Little Deorr "a thousand times more than the police have"....yet a minute later VDK is saying they "never search unless LE is with them" ??? How can those statements line up at all? I mean, OBVIOUSLY "a thousand times more" would be an exaggeration, that isn't my point. My point is that they can't have searched ANY more than LE if LE is always with them searching. These two are literally making it up as they go.

Good point, so no more just lurking, lol. :)
 
I don't think they really loved DeOrr at all. If they really loved him, how could they find him dead and then, instead of calling for help, dump him in the wilderness for animals to eat? Or just dig a hole and throw him in? Seriously, how could anyone do that if they found that their beloved child had accidentally died? How could they appear on TV afterwards showing barely any emotion? How could they set up an online shop selling missing posters (a missing poster was $5 when they first opened shop) and trinkets, and profit from their son's death?
 
I don't think they really loved DeOrr at all. If they really loved him, how could they find him dead and then, instead of calling for help, dump him in the wilderness for animals to eat? Or just dig a hole and throw him in? Seriously, how could anyone do that if they found that their beloved child had accidentally died? How could they appear on TV afterwards showing barely any emotion? How could they set up an online shop selling missing posters (a missing poster was $5 when they first opened shop) and trinkets, and profit from their son's death?

I lay here every night having a hard time sleeping because I find myself mourning over sweet little DeOrr. I truly ache just thinking about him. I don't understand how I have seen more love, worry, and compassion for this little angel from complete strangers than his own family. The people that should love him more than anything have failed him. It scares me to think if this is how they are when he's gone, how were they when he was alive? After this last interview I have sadly swayed away from this being an accident. I am so angered to think not only did they fail him, they wouldn't even let him rest with his favorite blanket.


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I have been following this one from the beginning - this case reminds me so much of Noah Thomas' disappearance. Neglect-accident-panic-coverup. Maintain the story to the end, because you know, omg do you know that the punishment that you will give to yourself, knowing that you let your baby down, that you failed him, even though it had never even occurred to you that something like this could happen is so much worse than anything LE can possible dole out.

IMHO, I do believe that VDK and JM are guilty of panicking, hiding a body, and misleading LE and the public. That being said, I think that little Deorr Perished accidentally, either in a hot car (because he was sleeping peacefully, and they felt he was comfortable and safe there), or by the accidental discharge of a loaded gun (maybe from mom's purse or in the tent with the camping supplies)

I lean towards these scenarios for the following reasons:

1) in either scenario, one or more adults would/could face charges for neglect, amoung other things
2) for the hot car scenario, I have, when my children were very young, either: driven around aimlessly because they were asleep, and I didn't dare wake them up, or, sat in my parked car with the windows down, in a shady spot, for a half hour or so, because sometimes waking a sleeping toddler (especially if they had been overtired and especially difficult that day) is just inviting disaster. Perhaps VDK and JM did ask GGP to sit with him in the truck while they went for their walk, but, after the first few minutes, GGP elected to check in on him every once in a while, and continued to set up camp, or use the restroom, and then suddenly, it was too late. In that case, a terrible tragedy, and I can see how one might want to protect their family member ("it was an accident, it's no-ones fault. We know that you are a trusted and responsible adult, no-one blames you" They clean up, they cover-up, and because the instructions weren't clear enough, they all call 911 at the same time. Then, everything got too real, the story got too much press, and there is no turning back.

3. With the gun scenario, i can see it playing out the same way- whomever owned the hypothetical gun shouldn't have had it loaded, it should have had a safety, it should have been locked up, and it should never have been in a place where little hands could get it. While I understand that no physical evidence has been found that corroborates this theory, I believe that there was a considerable amount of time that elapsed before 911 was called. Enough time to perhaps dispose of a tent and its contents, park a vehicle over the spot, and have the team meeting: "it was an accident, it's no-ones fault. We know that you are a trusted and responsible adult, no-one blames you" They clean up, they cover-up, and because the instructions weren't clear enough, they all call 911 at the same time. Then, everything got too real, the story got too much press, and there is no turning back. Only IR, who didn't have a family members feelings to protect, said "nope. I was fishing. I have no idea what you are talking about. This coversation never happened." MOO

While I don't think that anyone involved in this inner circle should have been nominated "parent of the year", I firmly believe that there was no malicious intent here. Little Deorr was loved, and is loved by his extended family, his siblings, etc. People screw up, and make bad choices. Lying about what happened is not going to bring back this little angel, and hopefully at some point, one of them will step up to the plate, ask for a plea bargain, and lay it all out on the table; because even a mediocre parent would be tortured by the thought of their beautiful baby being eaten by vultures and worms.

I know that I am rambling a bit, but I also wanted to touch on the topic of little Deorr trying to cheer up mama.... My children have always been loved, and safe, and cared for. They have never experienced any real pain or anxiety, nobody fights or swears around them. However, even from a very young age, all of my children, if they saw my tears (PMS may have been a factor in these moments of weakness), my children would hug me, and say "don't cry mommy, everything will be okay" and "I love you so much", etc. The more nurturing of my kids would maybe rub my back, the more animated child would try to make me laugh. When my kids stepped up to the plate, and did and said these things, it reminded me that I had taught them that. I said those same words to comfort them. I would move mountains to bring back a smile. That my children would do the same for me meant that I had done something right. I taught them kindness, and love, and empathy.. If someone were to try to turn that around on me and say that my children must be neglected, damaged, scared, abused because they show compassion- it just couldn't be further from the truth. At the age of sweet little Deorr, manipulation for self preservation wouldn't be his motive. Someone had made him laugh and smile when he was sad, when he fell. He wanted to make mama smile when she was unhappy, because that's what mama (or at least someone in his life) had done for him. If he had been neglected and abused and unloved, if no one had treated him with kindness in his short little life, he may not have wanted so badly to make mama all better. JMO

Also, (I promise that this is my last point), as far as JM "knowing where the body is" this may be the speculative outcome of a line of questioning by LE or Klein that I imagine goes something like this:
(LE) "so, you say your son was alive and well when you arrived at your campsite, right? And you say that you have not given/sold him to another person, correct? And we haven't found him, even though we have used every resource at our disposal. So, let me ask you this- wouldn't it be fair to say that you know that your son has almost definitely perished by now, and that you know that his body is somewhere on this property?"
(JM) "yes he was here, no, I wouldn't sell my baby. I know he can't have survived in the elements, yes, I guess that he has to still be on this property"

In summary:
I have to believe that JM and VDK loved their baby. That they may have been frustrated or short with him sometimes, but would never dream of hurting him on purpose. Why go through the hassle of taking a toddler camping, away from the TV and iPad that can keep him occupied and quiet at home, to bring him to a location where he needs constant attention "stay back from the fire", "don't go near the water" "eeew, don't put that in your mouth" , "don't trip on the tree roots and rocks" - if he was an "inconvenience" as some are implying, why not dump him with a sitter? They love(d) him, they taught him compassion. Something terrible happened, and someone got all "Olivia Pope" and took the reins, made a plan, gave everyone their script, carried out the dirty work, maybe threatened to testify against anyone who broke character..... But, Someone tries too hard to "sell" the story, offers too many little details. They can't possibly keep it consistent if more details keep getting added. But, after the shock wears off, and the memories start to hurt too much, resentment starts to build. Loyalties start to feel misplaced. I do believe that we are starting to see it all unravel.
JMO JMHO MOO
I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you said, however with the cadaver dogs...I don't see the gun part being possible. Everything else though is my thoughts exactly.

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I am so angered to think not only did they fail him, they wouldn't even let him rest with his favorite blanket.


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RSBM

Exactly. Could not agree more! [emoji35]



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I went back and watched any interview I could find with JM or VK talking. There weren't many, but I can't find a single one where they mention DeOrr by name. I found one where JM cried, but she was crying about the meanies on SM back in October. http://www.localnews8.com/news/parents-of-missing-2yearold-talk-about-social-media/36054316

I did find her smiling in one video talking about DeOrr, but then she also has a smile/smirk when talking about the SM meanies comments about the horrible things done. http://www.onenewspage.com/video/20...nd-Friends-Continue-Search-for-DeOrr-Kunz.htm

And going through videos, I listened to one from July 13th where, I believe it was a volunteer searcher, specifically says "a lot of facts just didn't add up". I thought that was an odd comment from someone who was there in the initial days. I take it the "facts" in this case came from the original story of JM and VK taking off to explore/fish 50 yds/10 minutes away and GGP was watching DeOrr at camp. Maybe he just meant they should have found him, but I thought it was an odd choice of words.
 
I guess putting your head down and your hand to your face is a good way to hide the fact that there are no tears!
 
I just thought too, when Vernal cried tears in the first interview, and Jessica cried real tears when she was saying that mean social media comments are the worst thing about having a missing child, neither of them put their heads down or hid their face with their hand. So it's not even something they naturally do when crying.
 
I just thought too, when Vernal cried tears in the first interview, and Jessica cried real tears when she was saying that mean social media comments are the worst thing about having a missing child, neither of them put their heads down or hid their face with their hand. So it's not even something they naturally do when crying.

Yep, they should have paid for acting lessons before they spent money on the attorney.
 
I finally watched the full edit and just don't know what to think. I don't get the impression JM is an especially warm person (and what is it with being incapable of closing her teeth - drove me mad!) while VDK seems much more amiable.

Having said that VDK was very much "I, me, my" which is egotistical, I didn't hear many references to "we, our". It almost felt that VDK is in on the game and has been drafted by LE to trap JM. Silly I know, but I just didn't feel they're united in this.

BIG inconsistency with the "we searched 1000 times more than LE / LE were always with us" thang and I'm just finding it all so, so weird now.
 
This is just something I noticed. Probably doesn't hold any significance. Close to the 2:45 mark, DK says, "Everybody sits and pla..." and then changes it to "Everybody sits and thinks..." Leakage? Was he thinking of DeOrr sitting and playing before something happened? ONE of the stories is that he was playing with his cars by the campfire before he "disappeared." I'm anxious to read what the statement analysts think about this.
 
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