ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[Trident]

Regarding the discussion about reading everything, rehashing, etc. I think we are comparing apples and oranges and chairs and cats. There is a big difference between asking for clarification about the blanket, and asking to be caught up on everything that has happened since September. There is a big difference between asking for a reminder about what SB said about the timeline, and saying that the sheriff said the campers were solid, so they are not suspects.
Just sayin'.

I believe the best way for newbies to catch up is to read the media thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=11960500#post11960500

All of the other threads are simply ideas, rehash of ideas and things that are no longer there and ya missed some of the best parts, LOL. Oh, it will be hard to find, so don't bother, but there were some surprises about things we didn't know for quite a while - like IR was there; they got to the campground Thursday some time instead of Friday like we were led to believe; the parents went to the store in Leadore twice; and a few other things which I've forgotten. C'mon all you regular posters, help me help the newbies.

:cow:

 

[Lillahazel]

Wow, logged on to see lots of new posts only to find that the thread's turned into a FaceBook bashing frenzy. I can appreciate that some don't like FB and that's fine - it obviously doesn't float your boat. Others do like FB and that's fine too. Then there are those in the middle who see it as a "tool" and for some situations, like investigating crimes, it certainly can be (why else do some LE's have person(s) dedicated to it!)

I respect the WS rule that if it isn't in MSM or on an MSM FB page then we can't mention it here - that helps keep out some of the crazyness. But at the same time I sometimes think that we're missing a trick by ignoring it completely. I read a while back someone suggested a thread being made in the Parking Lot (I think it was the PL) so that FB stuff could be discussed - perhaps this isn't such a bad idea because something gleaned from FB (or other social media tbh) could just be the thing that makes one of us have a lightbulb moment.

In other words, yes FB contains its fair share of crazies - but as with any source of information if one does some due diligence and applies critical thinking it can be useful. "FaceBook" and "critical thinking" are not mutually exclusive.

:moo:

I agree and also use FB as a "tool". Especially considering we are discussing two people that fall into the FB generation. I have two much younger sisters that fall into this generation and I learn more personal information about them via FB posts than when I'm sitting right in front of them. I am not saying FB is right or that it isn't a glamorized version that's toned up or down of a person but a lot of times there is an exaggerated truth there.

I completely understand WS's rules about not using it as a tool because it's a bit like Pandora's Box for some (not meaning anyone here on WS). When I think about FB I think about two compleley different things on this case.
1. The suspects own personal words
2. All the he said she said "witch hunting" comments from others that follow.
I personally only focus on #1.

If it wasn't for FB many of the photos we have wouldn't be there, I wouldn't have stumbled across his sweet little face in my newsfeed and done a Google search, and found WS.

JMO

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I believe the best way for newbies to catch up is to read the media thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=11960500#post11960500

All of the other threads are simply ideas, rehash of ideas and things that are no longer there and ya missed some of the best parts, LOL. Oh, it will be hard to find, so don't bother, but there were some surprises about things we didn't know for quite a while - like IR was there; they got to the campground Thursday some time instead of Friday like we were led to believe; the parents went to the store in Leadore twice; and a few other things which I've forgotten. C'mon all you regular posters, help me help the newbies.

:cow:

IMO, Klein wasn't very clear about the trips to the store. He said VDK made two transactions but he didn't say if they were during the same trip or two different trips.

 

[desert-blue]

I have been on this board since the very first thread. I am also the one that mistakenly used the word "months" instead of "almost a month and a half" when referring to how long it was before LE officially stated that the family did, in fact, arrive on Thursday evening. I was responding to someone else's post. I realize the subject has been discussed at length in previous threads so I apologize if my response was deemed as unnecessary rehashing (and also that my recollection of time was slightly off). However, it has never been cleared up as to how the misinformation occurred, so it's unclear to me why it cannot be discussed. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you want to believe that the parents were completely forthcoming and told LE right up front that they arrived on Thursday night (even though SB's words were that he learned "during the investigation"), then that's your right. I happen to feel that the reason for the mix-up was because the parents were not forthcoming. When NE asked them to go back to the beginning, during their interview three days after DeOrr disappeared, VDK did not start with Thursday evening and their arrival at the campground. Instead he acted like he couldn't remember what day it was and then he proceeded to skip over everything and start with Friday's 911 call. Link: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/uncut-entire-interview-with-parents-of-deorr-kunz/

Yes, "rumors" started early on about them arriving Thursday evening due to TBC's FB comments (which I can't provide a link for). On August 11th, Frank Vilt made a comment about them going to the store "the morning after they arrived." Here is a link to the interview: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/kunz-family-investigator-everything-points-to-an-abduction/ . This started a debate on this forum about whether he meant they went the morning of the same day they arrived or the morning of the next day - you can read all about it on Thread #7, starting with post #101 and going intermittently until at least post #224, perhaps longer but I don't have all day to re-read the entire thread. Ultimately, the Thursday arrival was not allowed as "fact" on WS because MSM had continually and consistently stated that the family arrived on Friday morning.

Then, on August 18th, SB finally confirmed that they arrived on Thursday evening. Thread #9, post #5, is when the WS timeline was officially changed to reflect the date of arrival as Thursday.

So, it took 5.5 weeks for official confirmation that they arrived on Thursday, instead of Friday. Yes, rumors started well before that. But, that is precisely the problem: it was rumor. When a child is missing (and the parents are pushing abduction), a crucial piece of information like that should not be a rumor. It should be a well-stated fact. MOO.

It took over 6.5 months until it was released that some of them went to the Silver Dollar on Thursday night as well. Link: https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/posts/1688440941411392 The question was asked on February 1st.

Going back to the media thread does not clear up this issue because it is NOT known HOW it became such a source of confusion. Going back to the media thread only tells us that they did indeed arrive on Thursday evening. That is not the point of contention.

It is my opinion that the parents were not forthcoming about their arrival date. Perhaps it was just a lie of omission, but one has to wonder if perhaps there was a reason they didn't want to discuss Thursday night, especially now that they are suspects in the disappearance of their son. In their interview on July 13th, they should have provided a clear timeline, especially when suggesting he may have been abducted. Again, MOO.

So, I apologize if my slightly erroneous comment caused such utter exasperation to some on the board. However, I think the whole point of my post was misunderstood because I was not suggesting that the arrival date was unclear. I was commenting on the suspicious nature regarding the amount of time that passed before the "rumor" of the arrival date was officially cleared up by LE (and subsequently, MSM).

OT, but I'd also like to note that I have no problem whatsoever with new (or old) followers of this case asking questions or discussing issues, even if they have already been discussed. Each person provides a unique perspective and you never know when two pieces of the puzzle might snap together.

 

[MaryReyn]

Another newbie who stepped away from the discussion for a couple of days. Can someone clarify about the blanket or lead me to where is was earlier discussed?

 

[desert-blue]

Legally, they are innocent until proven guilty. But in reality and fact, they are innocent, or guilty. And reality is all that matters for little Deorr.

I agree. It's interesting that in a court of law, a person is found guilty or not guilty. No one is found "innocent." Not guilty just means the evidence, etc. left reasonable doubt.

 

[desert-blue]

Another newbie who stepped away from the discussion for a couple of days. Can someone clarify about the blanket or lead me to where is was earlier discussed?

The parents talked about the blanket in their first interview on the July 13th - VDK gets tongue twisted and calls it a replica, but he may have just been misusing words. You can google the interview or look on East Idaho News if you want to watch it.

The parents said DeOrr didn't go anywhere without his blanket, but it was left behind when he disappeared. I'm not sure where it was left though.

Lately (earlier in this thread), a poster found several photos of DeOrr with another blanket (green with darker green polka dots). So, it's been questioned whether DeOrr maybe had two blankets and that this green blanket maybe be with DeOrr wherever he is, or maybe it was destroyed as evidence, and the big question is whether the parents have this other blanket in their possession.

Not sure if that helps at all...

 

[Trident]

I have been on this board since the very first thread. I am also the one that mistakenly used the word "months" instead of "almost a month and a half" when referring to how long it was before LE officially stated that the family did, in fact, arrive on Thursday evening. I was responding to someone else's post. I realize the subject has been discussed at length in previous threads so I apologize if my response was deemed as unnecessary rehashing (and also that my recollection of time was slightly off). However, it has never been cleared up as to how the misinformation occurred, so it's unclear to me why it cannot be discussed. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you want to believe that the parents were completely forthcoming and told LE right up front that they arrived on Thursday night (even though SB's words were that he learned "during the investigation"), then that's your right. I happen to feel that the reason for the mix-up was because the parents were not forthcoming. When NE asked them to go back to the beginning, during their interview three days after DeOrr disappeared, VDK did not start with Thursday evening and their arrival at the campground. Instead he acted like he couldn't remember what day it was and then he proceeded to skip over everything and start with Friday's 911 call. Link: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/uncut-entire-interview-with-parents-of-deorr-kunz/

Yes, "rumors" started early on about them arriving Thursday evening due to TBC's FB comments (which I can't provide a link for). On August 11th, Frank Vilt made a comment about them going to the store "the morning after they arrived." Here is a link to the interview: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/kunz-family-investigator-everything-points-to-an-abduction/ . This started a debate on this forum about whether he meant they went the morning of the same day they arrived or the morning of the next day - you can read all about it on Thread #7, starting with post #101 and going intermittently until at least post #224, perhaps longer but I don't have all day to re-read the entire thread. Ultimately, the Thursday arrival was not allowed as "fact" on WS because MSM had continually and consistently stated that the family arrived on Friday morning.

Then, on August 18th, SB finally confirmed that they arrived on Thursday evening. Thread #9, post #5, is when the WS timeline was officially changed to reflect the date of arrival as Thursday.

So, it took 5.5 weeks for official confirmation that they arrived on Thursday, instead of Friday. Yes, rumors started well before that. But, that is precisely the problem: it was rumor. When a child is missing (and the parents are pushing abduction), a crucial piece of information like that should not be a rumor. It should be a well-stated fact. MOO.

It took over 6.5 months until it was released that some of them went to the Silver Dollar on Thursday night as well. Link: https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/posts/1688440941411392 The question was asked on February 1st.

Going back to the media thread does not clear up this issue because it is NOT known HOW it became such a source of confusion. Going back to the media thread only tells us that they did indeed arrive on Thursday evening. That is not the point of contention.

It is my opinion that the parents were not forthcoming about their arrival date. Perhaps it was just a lie of omission, but one has to wonder if perhaps there was a reason they didn't want to discuss Thursday night, especially now that they are suspects in the disappearance of their son. In their interview on July 13th, they should have provided a clear timeline, especially when suggesting he may have been abducted. Again, MOO.

So, I apologize if my slightly erroneous comment caused such utter exasperation to some on the board. However, I think the whole point of my post was misunderstood because I was not suggesting that the arrival date was unclear. I was commenting on the suspicious nature regarding the amount of time that passed before the "rumor" of the arrival date was officially cleared up by LE (and subsequently, MSM).

OT, but I'd also like to note that I have no problem whatsoever with new (or old) followers of this case asking questions or discussing issues, even if they have already been discussed. Each person provides a unique perspective and you never know when two pieces of the puzzle might snap together.

Excellent post! I hope you didn't think "I" was casting aspersions 'cause I weren't.

One thing about this thread though, sometimes things go off limits or off altogether and none of us know why. That strikes me a bit odd when I go to look for a particular discussion. Are we taking a leaf from well, uh, maybe SB's book, LOL?

:cow:

 

[Lillahazel]

Another newbie who stepped away from the discussion for a couple of days. Can someone clarify about the blanket or lead me to where is was earlier discussed?

Welcome fellow newbie. I posted in this thread starting with post #137 of DeOrr photographed with two different blankets in various photos. Hopefully this is what your looking for


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ReadySet]

Yes it is important to find out what happened to Deorr and where he is, obviously.

Well of course. Maybe we are on the same page?

 

[cantkeepquietanymore]

I agree and also use FB as a "tool". Especially considering we are discussing two people that fall into the FB generation. I have two much younger sisters that fall into this generation and I learn more personal information about them via FB posts than when I'm sitting right in front of them. I am not saying FB is right or that it isn't a glamorized version that's toned up or down of a person but a lot of times there is an exaggerated truth there.

I completely understand WS's rules about not using it as a tool because it's a bit like Pandora's Box for some (not meaning anyone here on WS). When I think about FB I think about two compleley different things on this case.
1. The suspects own personal words
2. All the he said she said "witch hunting" comments from others that follow.
I personally only focus on #1.

If it wasn't for FB many of the photos we have wouldn't be there, I wouldn't have stumbled across his sweet little face in my newsfeed and done a Google search, and found WS.

JMO

Agreed. Deorr's little face showed up on my newsfeed as well

I also think fb can be a useful tool (if you ignore the crazies). Not so much by looking at the general comments, but by using it as a window to see into deeper things.... like relationships and connections.
I don't consider those commenters on fb to be "internet detectives", as they are so often referred to. More like internet lynch mobs. Some of it is pretty harsh, and vile.

I've gone back and forth on this, and don't know what happened (as none of us do). But the amount of comments (on fb) completely stating as fact that these parents outright murdered their child is shocking!
IMO I am leaning towards an accident and cover up. I think that these are two very young and very immature parents, and i don't think it would have to necessarily be something sinister for them to want to cover it up. I think they fear the law, but more so i think they fear the opinion of others. Family members especially. One side in particular.

 

[Butler]

I agree. It's interesting that in a court of law, a person is found guilty or not guilty. No one is found "innocent." Not guilty just means the evidence, etc. left reasonable doubt.

Not guilty means not guilty. In the USA some of us still hold to the meaning of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

[ReadySet]

I have been on this board since the very first thread. I am also the one that mistakenly used the word "months" instead of "almost a month and a half" when referring to how long it was before LE officially stated that the family did, in fact, arrive on Thursday evening. I was responding to someone else's post. I realize the subject has been discussed at length in previous threads so I apologize if my response was deemed as unnecessary rehashing (and also that my recollection of time was slightly off). However, it has never been cleared up as to how the misinformation occurred, so it's unclear to me why it cannot be discussed. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you want to believe that the parents were completely forthcoming and told LE right up front that they arrived on Thursday night (even though SB's words were that he learned "during the investigation"), then that's your right. I happen to feel that the reason for the mix-up was because the parents were not forthcoming. When NE asked them to go back to the beginning, during their interview three days after DeOrr disappeared, VDK did not start with Thursday evening and their arrival at the campground. Instead he acted like he couldn't remember what day it was and then he proceeded to skip over everything and start with Friday's 911 call. Link: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/uncut-entire-interview-with-parents-of-deorr-kunz/

Yes, "rumors" started early on about them arriving Thursday evening due to TBC's FB comments (which I can't provide a link for). On August 11th, Frank Vilt made a comment about them going to the store "the morning after they arrived." Here is a link to the interview: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/kunz-family-investigator-everything-points-to-an-abduction/ . This started a debate on this forum about whether he meant they went the morning of the same day they arrived or the morning of the next day - you can read all about it on Thread #7, starting with post #101 and going intermittently until at least post #224, perhaps longer but I don't have all day to re-read the entire thread. Ultimately, the Thursday arrival was not allowed as "fact" on WS because MSM had continually and consistently stated that the family arrived on Friday morning.

Then, on August 18th, SB finally confirmed that they arrived on Thursday evening. Thread #9, post #5, is when the WS timeline was officially changed to reflect the date of arrival as Thursday.

So, it took 5.5 weeks for official confirmation that they arrived on Thursday, instead of Friday. Yes, rumors started well before that. But, that is precisely the problem: it was rumor. When a child is missing (and the parents are pushing abduction), a crucial piece of information like that should not be a rumor. It should be a well-stated fact. MOO.

It took over 6.5 months until it was released that some of them went to the Silver Dollar on Thursday night as well. Link: https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/posts/1688440941411392 The question was asked on February 1st.

Going back to the media thread does not clear up this issue because it is NOT known HOW it became such a source of confusion. Going back to the media thread only tells us that they did indeed arrive on Thursday evening. That is not the point of contention.

It is my opinion that the parents were not forthcoming about their arrival date. Perhaps it was just a lie of omission, but one has to wonder if perhaps there was a reason they didn't want to discuss Thursday night, especially now that they are suspects in the disappearance of their son. In their interview on July 13th, they should have provided a clear timeline, especially when suggesting he may have been abducted. Again, MOO.

So, I apologize if my slightly erroneous comment caused such utter exasperation to some on the board. However, I think the whole point of my post was misunderstood because I was not suggesting that the arrival date was unclear. I was commenting on the suspicious nature regarding the amount of time that passed before the "rumor" of the arrival date was officially cleared up by LE (and subsequently, MSM).

OT, but I'd also like to note that I have no problem whatsoever with new (or old) followers of this case asking questions or discussing issues, even if they have already been discussed. Each person provides a unique perspective and you never know when two pieces of the puzzle might snap together.

Excellent post.

 

[Beezneez]

Several random thoughts:
It is going to be late April/-early May before it is thawed & the mud has dried enough to do anything productive. The ground is frozen a couple feet down & while that thaws it's all mud. Heavy vehicles sink & horses or people on foot would quickly become exhausted & hypothermic, since everything is wet.

I was new to this site until Deorr, and have ventured into some other threads, but always try to inform myself as best I can. I've asked & answered plenty of questions, no problem. I've also been repeatedly asked "where did you get that information" or "what is your source" on things. Every single time I have replied that it is in the media thread or provided some documentation to back up my opinion. Despite that, there have still been people questioning my statements about very basic things surrounding the dissapearance of DeOrr. That is frustrating because the info is readily available if someone is genuinely curious enough to look.

On fb- goodness, it is a two sided coin for sure. I consider it a tool, especially since Klein, NE/EIN & CB and now Allan Browning have all used it primarily to communicate about this. The Kunz/Mitchell/Clegg families (or someone using all their accounts) have also been active using that media as a platform for public speech. A lot of this situation has played out on Facebook. There are plenty of nuts out there too. Watch your step!
Favebook is a huge, destructive elephant in the room that might have just one or two spots of useful information.

 

[12madelyn]

Yes, it is a very big leap. "Mental state" could.mean that he suffers from anxiety or something. Bowerman said "Mental state", not mental capacity.

Same for grandpa. He's probably just anxious.

 

[ReadySet]

Agreed. Deorr's little face showed up on my newsfeed as well

I also think fb can be a useful tool (if you ignore the crazies). Not so much by looking at the general comments, but by using it as a window to see into deeper things.... like relationships and connections.
I don't consider those commenters on fb to be "internet detectives", as they are so often referred to. More like internet lynch mobs. Some of it is pretty harsh, and vile.

I've gone back and forth on this, and don't know what happened (as none of us do). But the amount of comments (on fb) completely stating as fact that these parents outright murdered their child is shocking!
IMO I am leaning towards an accident and cover up. I think that these are two very young and very immature parents, and i don't think it would have to necessarily be something sinister for them to want to cover it up. I think they fear the law, but more so i think they fear the opinion of others. Family members especially. One side in particular.

I haven't read a lot on SM, but the impression I get, and it's just a sense,is that the suspects' thinking may go like this:
Just speculation:

Oh no. Now we've really screwed up. What's (Mom, Dad, etc.) going to say? They said this was my last chance...they already gave me money, bailed me out, took me in, helped with the kids, stood up for me, supported me. They were so angry when I (went in debt, used drugs, lost the kids, got divorced.) They'll never forgive me! After everything that's happened, they can't know that we lost the baby!

JMO

 

[Trident]

Same for grandpa. He's probably just anxious.

I'll just betcha there's enough anxiety to go around. At least I hope so.

 

[Trident]

I agree. It's interesting that in a court of law, a person is found guilty or not guilty. No one is found "innocent." Not guilty just means the evidence, etc. left reasonable doubt.

Exactly. The Anthony case was a good example, IMO.

 

[12madelyn]

We don't know. Which is exactly why we should avoid labelling innocent people (people who have not even been named suspects), especially with old-fashioned terms now seen as derogatory. And why we should avoid saying that the sheriff said something he didn't, or stating opinion as fact.

You know what? I would greatly appreciate it if you never again call me one who inappropriately, derogatorily labels innocent people with old-fashioned terms. "Diminished mental capacity" or "less than average IQ" are the only terms I have ever used. Do you suffer from last-word-itis or maybe mountain-out-of-molehill disorder. These are PC terms for "diminished politeness".

Again, please don't reference my character again.

 

[Rayemonde]

I have been on this board since the very first thread. I am also the one that mistakenly used the word "months" instead of "almost a month and a half" when referring to how long it was before LE officially stated that the family did, in fact, arrive on Thursday evening. I was responding to someone else's post. I realize the subject has been discussed at length in previous threads so I apologize if my response was deemed as unnecessary rehashing (and also that my recollection of time was slightly off). However, it has never been cleared up as to how the misinformation occurred, so it's unclear to me why it cannot be discussed. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you want to believe that the parents were completely forthcoming and told LE right up front that they arrived on Thursday night (even though SB's words were that he learned "during the investigation"), then that's your right. I happen to feel that the reason for the mix-up was because the parents were not forthcoming. When NE asked them to go back to the beginning, during their interview three days after DeOrr disappeared, VDK did not start with Thursday evening and their arrival at the campground. Instead he acted like he couldn't remember what day it was and then he proceeded to skip over everything and start with Friday's 911 call. Link: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/uncut-entire-interview-with-parents-of-deorr-kunz/

Yes, "rumors" started early on about them arriving Thursday evening due to TBC's FB comments (which I can't provide a link for). On August 11th, Frank Vilt made a comment about them going to the store "the morning after they arrived." Here is a link to the interview: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/kunz-family-investigator-everything-points-to-an-abduction/ . This started a debate on this forum about whether he meant they went the morning of the same day they arrived or the morning of the next day - you can read all about it on Thread #7, starting with post #101 and going intermittently until at least post #224, perhaps longer but I don't have all day to re-read the entire thread. Ultimately, the Thursday arrival was not allowed as "fact" on WS because MSM had continually and consistently stated that the family arrived on Friday morning.

Then, on August 18th, SB finally confirmed that they arrived on Thursday evening. Thread #9, post #5, is when the WS timeline was officially changed to reflect the date of arrival as Thursday.

So, it took 5.5 weeks for official confirmation that they arrived on Thursday, instead of Friday. Yes, rumors started well before that. But, that is precisely the problem: it was rumor. When a child is missing (and the parents are pushing abduction), a crucial piece of information like that should not be a rumor. It should be a well-stated fact. MOO.

It took over 6.5 months until it was released that some of them went to the Silver Dollar on Thursday night as well. Link: https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/posts/1688440941411392 The question was asked on February 1st.

Going back to the media thread does not clear up this issue because it is NOT known HOW it became such a source of confusion. Going back to the media thread only tells us that they did indeed arrive on Thursday evening. That is not the point of contention.

It is my opinion that the parents were not forthcoming about their arrival date. Perhaps it was just a lie of omission, but one has to wonder if perhaps there was a reason they didn't want to discuss Thursday night, especially now that they are suspects in the disappearance of their son. In their interview on July 13th, they should have provided a clear timeline, especially when suggesting he may have been abducted. Again, MOO.

So, I apologize if my slightly erroneous comment caused such utter exasperation to some on the board. However, I think the whole point of my post was misunderstood because I was not suggesting that the arrival date was unclear. I was commenting on the suspicious nature regarding the amount of time that passed before the "rumor" of the arrival date was officially cleared up by LE (and subsequently, MSM).

OT, but I'd also like to note that I have no problem whatsoever with new (or old) followers of this case asking questions or discussing issues, even if they have already been discussed. Each person provides a unique perspective and you never know when two pieces of the puzzle might snap together.

:goodpost: