ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[courtneyb]

First post here. I have been lurking for a long time. This is the very reason why I don't ask questions on threads.

Great post.

EVERYONE's insight is valuable. Just because a person insinuates or even says that they are smarter, better, more knowledgeable, more thorough, etc., doesn't mean they are. It only means they want you to feel as if they are. I'm not just talking about here, but all the time.

Glad you are here. Can't wait to hear your thoughts, especially curious since you've been lurking and seeing the discussion from just a step outside. [emoji4]


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[persimmon]

http://m.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992

I agree that no one saw DeOrr. I think SB also indicated there were no verifiable sightings outside of the four campers.

I always thought the clerk told LE(? No sure who) that she saw a little filthy crying boy and a man in a black truck. I assumed it struck her as odd somehow because she remembered it. From there, I imagined investigators showed her pictures of DeOrr and perhaps VDK and she said nope not the people I saw. Something along those lines. I guessed she initially said it because perhaps she heard a black truck was involved somehow ....not sure. To me it was merely a coincidence. But, I wouldn't put it past the parents to create for some irrational reasons.

 

[Elle*Bee]

In Scotland they have a middle ground verdict "not proven". I like it and can think of several cases it would apply.

"Not proven is a verdict available to a court in Scotland. As with other judicial systems, the burden to prove guilt rests with the prosecution. Under Scots law, a criminal trial may end in one of three verdicts: one of conviction ("guilty") and two of acquittal ("not proven" and "not guilty")"

Very interesting. Just curious: in Scotland, if the verdict comes back as "not proven" (acquitted), could that person ever be re-tried if more evidence becomes available? Or is it like double jeopardy in the US in which a person acquitted can not be tried again on the same charges?

 

[persimmon]

The last sentence in this quote is very weird:

"Til the day I die, til the day we die, I will find him," said Vernal. "I refuse to leave this earth without knowing where he is or what happened at least. At least knowing that he's okay."

It's like he's talking about a runaway or something. It implies that if he found his son living elsewhere with another family, he could die peacefully. There is no logic in it at all.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Very interesting. Just curious: in Scotland, if the verdict comes back as "not proven" (acquitted), could that person ever be re-tried if more evidence becomes available? Or is it like double jeopardy in the US in which a person acquitted can not be tried again on the same charges?

I believe they cannot be tried again. I'm not sure how that or double jeopardy works though in the worst case scenario. What if after a not proven or not guilty verdict there emerges irrefutable evidence of guilt??

 

[persimmon]

The last sentence in this quote is very weird:

"Til the day I die, til the day we die, I will find him," said Vernal. "I refuse to leave this earth without knowing where he is or what happened at least. At least knowing that he's okay."

It's like he's talking about a runaway or something. It implies that if he found his son living elsewhere with another family, he could die peacefully. There is no logic in it at all.

It almost suggests that he may be covering for something JM may have orchestrated. But I tend to not go for overly elaborate scenarios or selling children because I cannot possibly imagine how that could happen without his involvement. Regardless, his language here is suggestive imo

 

[Butler]

I believe they cannot be tried again. I'm not sure how that or double jeopardy works though in the worst case scenario. What if after a not proven or not guilty verdict there emerges irrefutable evidence of guilt??

I don't know about Scotland but in the US double jeopardy applies and they can not be tried again. That is why often it seem obvious someone is guilty but LE waits to arrest or charge. Once an arrest is made the clock starts ticking for the prosecution to prove the case. If they can't, it's all over. People can't be arrested for something and then the prosecution gets unlimited time to gather evidence to prove the case.

I like the way Scotland does things in this regard.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I don't know about Scotland but in the US double jeopardy applies and they can not be tried again. That is why often it seem obvious someone is guilty but LE waits to arrest or charge. Once an arrest is made the clock starts ticking for the prosecution to prove the case. If they can't, it's all over. People can't be arrested for something and then the prosecution gets unlimited time to gather evidence to prove the case.

I like the way Scotland does things in this regard.

Me too, but unfortunately there is talk of abolishing it. Personally I think it should be rolled out everywhere! I guess it would be an awful verdict if you were truly innocent as it pretty much says (to me) "we know you got away with it". Still, I'd quite like that hanging over certain peoples' heads, especially in some cold cases where evidence and memory fade over time.

 

[Angiebla]

I've been following this case since the very beginning and try my best to stay up to date with everything. I know I'm guilty of bringing up stuff from way back in the beginning. Sometimes a comment about something that happened later jogs my memory about something that happened way back in the beginning and makes me look at it differently or makes me question some tiny piece of information that may or may not be relevant to the case or the discussion. We all have our own opinions and those differing opinions will bring up differing questions and interpretations of what we've seen or heard. We'll put more thoughts and emphasis on different aspects of the case. Something that is old news or not worth discussing to me might be the most important part of the case to you.

These case is basically 9 months of unanswered questions and confusing statements. I have 9 months worth of questions and confusion to go along with it.

BBM

I have read almost every single post of every thread, and I still feel unsure about the information "I think" I know. There is really so much conflicting information out there. I've followed several other cases on other forums, and none of them are as nonsensical when it comes to the "facts" of the case.

One example: the 911 calls. I've heard Vernal called first, then Jessica, then GGP. Then I heard they called in the complete opposite order! If vernal had to leave the camp ground to call, how could his call have been first?

Im obviously already emotionally invested in this case. I want to see a conclusion. I just don't know what/who to believe.

 

[Lillahazel]

The last sentence in this quote is very weird:

"Til the day I die, til the day we die, I will find him," said Vernal. "I refuse to leave this earth without knowing where he is or what happened at least. At least knowing that he's okay."

It's like he's talking about a runaway or something. It implies that if he found his son living elsewhere with another family, he could die peacefully. There is no logic in it at all.

The last interview was interesting to me because JM spoke and I don't feel like it worked to her benefit. VDK on the other hand seemed to really choose his words carefully. There were a few moments where he backpedaled and I'm guessing that's because he knew people were going to be analyzing his words. It felt like someone told him to keep his mouth shut because of the first interview. I really am starting to question if VDK is out of the loop on what happened to DeOrr and battling with himself about trusting JM. Maybe his instinct was to say "I" but he quickly replaced it with "we". Is it possible he failed Polys because he doesn't know what happened but his gut feeling does? I'm really asking this question to others because I don't know the answer.


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[eileenhawkeye]

I think the parents have this belief that if they keep protesting or if they say/do the "right" things, people will stop accusing them of killing their son. Their actions make no sense because there is no plan. They're trying whatever they can...do interview where you are stoic, do interview where you try to show emotion, have PI speak out for you, etc. They are addicted to the attention, addicted to defending themselves. They can't log off their computers because then people will keep accusing them and they won't be able to say anything back.

 

[courtneyb]

The last interview was interesting to me because JM spoke and I don't feel like it worked to her benefit. VDK on the other hand seemed to really choose his words carefully. There were a few moments where he backpedaled and I'm guessing that's because he knew people were going to be analyzing his words. It felt like someone told him to keep his mouth shut because of the first interview. I really am starting to question if VDK is out of the loop on what happened to DeOrr and battling with himself about trusting JM. Maybe his instinct was to say "I" but he quickly replaced it with "we". Is it possible he failed Polys because he doesn't know what happened but his gut feeling does? I'm really asking this question to others because I don't know the answer.


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This question is acceptable to me. [emoji6]

Despite the looooooonnnnngggg discussions regarding polygraphs, now we have the newest interview which, IMO, was chock full of body language and verbal cues, word choices and phrasing that seemed...off. Seeing and hearing them speak again and seeing and hearing more animation, more fire in their souls when talking about SM and how intensely affected they are by what people are saying on Facebook, than when they speak about "him", was bizarre and sad.

I believe they are lying because SB says they are lying, but if I'd never heard of them and saw that interview cold, I wouldn't need a blood pressure cuff, pulse of, wires or any other machinery to know in my heart that they are both lying.

So, I guess perhaps the poly could pick up on those cues.

I'm still leaning accident with negligence or death due to discipline, maybe potty training related (I did not get the good feels from the "filthy" or "bawling" descriptors) but I definitely got the feeling that they do not feel they share equal blame in whatever happened.


ETA- OT, but I thought them accusing people of "moving on" or "putting it past them" was blatantly accusing other of doing what they have done. They are up to their eyeballs in SM fights and vulgarly defending themselves, but they have moved on, in their hearts and minds. They are still DEALING with the pitfalls of lying to LE, at the least, and the responsibility for the death and disposal of their child, at most. But, IMO, they've moved on.

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[Mickshawn]

BBM

I have read almost every single post of every thread, and I still feel unsure about the information "I think" I know. There is really so much conflicting information out there. I've followed several other cases on other forums, and none of them are as nonsensical when it comes to the "facts" of the case.

One example: the 911 calls. I've heard Vernal called first, then Jessica, then GGP. Then I heard they called in the complete opposite order! If vernal had to leave the camp ground to call, how could his call have been first?

Im obviously already emotionally invested in this case. I want to see a conclusion. I just don't know what/who to believe.

It sure is super confusing.....!!

 

[SubtleGrace]

ETA- OT, but I thought them accusing people of "moving on" or "putting it past them" was blatantly accusing other of doing what they have done. They are up to their eyeballs in SM fights and vulgarly defending themselves, but they have moved on, in their hearts and minds. They are still DEALING with the pitfalls of lying to LE, at the least, and the responsibility for the death and disposal of their child, at most. But, IMO, they've moved on.

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How could anyone move on that quickly in those circumstances? If guilty they are murderers and if innocent they have no clue what happened to their baby! Inconceivable!

 

[erinp]

Can someone please link me to the rules about what you can link to from social media? I've searched and can't find it, but I have seen it referenced so I know it's somewhere about.

I have seen it mentioned many times about DeOrr's blanket cup and monkey, and I found a picture posted by a family member on facebook (a public post) that shows DeOrr with the cup, monkey and blanket that Jessica was holding in the interview. I hadn't until now seen a picture of the monkey that had been mentioned so often. Is it allowable to post a link to this pic, or the picture itself?

 

[Cracka*Jaxx]

I believe they cannot be tried again. I'm not sure how that or double jeopardy works though in the worst case scenario. What if after a not proven or not guilty verdict there emerges irrefutable evidence of guilt??

There was a very well known case in the US where exactly this happened. It involved the rape, torture and murder of a woman by her current boyfriend and his former girlfriend, I believe. I think he was found not guilty, but years later a box of evidence was found buried behind his house. If I remember correctly, he came out and admitted the murder after his trial. Years later, when he was old and sickly, I think he fell down the inside staircase in his house and died. This all happened within the last 20 years, I think. He may have had a long, polish sounding name.

 

[Karinna]

I agree that no one saw DeOrr. I think SB also indicated there were no verifiable sightings outside of the four campers.

I always thought the clerk told LE(? No sure who) that she saw a little filthy crying boy and a man in a black truck. I assumed it struck her as odd somehow because she remembered it. From there, I imagined investigators showed her pictures of DeOrr and perhaps VDK and she said nope not the people I saw. Something along those lines. I guessed she initially said it because perhaps she heard a black truck was involved somehow ....not sure. To me it was merely a coincidence. But, I wouldn't put it past the parents to create for some irrational reasons.

Didn't Klein say he has a witness that verified they saw Deorr at 6pm.? Am not sure what day it was though on Thurs. or Fri.? But then again i'm not really sure about Klein's involvement/stance in this case either, and broadcasting such information to the general public that could prove prejedicual to this case in the long run if it does go to trial eventually?

 

[ModernAudrey]

There was a very well known case in the US where exactly this happened. It involved the rape, torture and murder of a woman by her current boyfriend and his former girlfriend, I believe. I think he was found not guilty, but years later a box of evidence was found buried behind his house. If I remember correctly, he came out and admitted the murder after his trial. Years later, when he was old and sickly, I think he fell down the inside staircase in his house and died. This all happened within the last 20 years, I think. He may have had a long, polish sounding name.

Mel Ignatow?

 

[Karinna]

I think the parents have this belief that if they keep protesting or if they say/do the "right" things, people will stop accusing them of killing their son. Their actions make no sense because there is no plan. They're trying whatever they can...do interview where you are stoic, do interview where you try to show emotion, have PI speak out for you, etc. They are addicted to the attention, addicted to defending themselves. They can't log off their computers because then people will keep accusing them and they won't be able to say anything back.

I really don't understand why parents of a missing child need to defend themselves to other people on Social Media at all? or doing useless interviews with msm? They should be working closely with investigators to help locate their child and do all in their power to find him and not worry about what other people are saying in the court of public opinion. Why would they even bother.

 

[courtneyb]

How could anyone move on that quickly in those circumstances? If guilty they are murderers and if innocent they have no clue what happened to their baby! Inconceivable!

I did not make myself clear. I apologize. I mean moved on as in they know he's gone and where he is and so they couldn't even fake muster up 1/2 the fire they had when talking about how wrongly people on Facebook have treated them. I believe that they hurt, have guilt probably, miss "him", almost certainly wish whatever happened had not happened. But, IMO, these expected feelings aren't as strong as their desire for self preservation. So, I will say I think they have true sorrow and all of the awful feelings that parents who lose children have, but, in my mind, those feelings must be muted, a shadow of the ones those parents who would NOT lie for months to the people who can help find your son and who WOULD call for medical help if they ran over him or if he died in a hot car or drowned because they weren't watching him, despite knowing they may face getting in trouble. Or call for help even if they were positive he couldn't be saved. Or not be able to wake up and breathe every day knowing your baby is wherever his body is, the ultimate denial of the last physical respect a person can have. Those feelings these two have obviously pale in comparison to the passion they display in defending themselves to the "haters". They have moved past the possibility that any of those feelings would stir them to tell the truth. Maybe on their deathbeds.. I just don't see either of them telling the truth unless one thinks they are both going down and so one talks. But that wouldn't be motivated by any love for or about DeOrr

As I was finishing my prior thought, my toddler painted the sofa and himself with Nutella, so, second bath time, [emoji4] then story and bed and sofa scrubbing. I didn't think I had even hit update yet. Oops.


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