ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[CanSleuth]

This is similar to a theory I have, only I put the mysterious GGPA (we STILL haven't heard from him) at the wheel repositioning the vehicle - to me he's the 1 person all 3 would lie for.

No disrespect for your opinion but I think GGPA would be one of the least people JM or VDK would lie for. I could see IR covering for his friend but I couldn't imagine any mother covering for her grandfather. The only person I could see her covering for is Vernal, and mostly one because she fears him or feels she cant live without him (financially and or emotionally). So what if GGPA loses his licence. He is older and being cared for by family anyway. Unless there were a lot of drinking and/or drugs involved on the part of all 4 adults, I would assume that Deorr being hit by the truck during the set up of camp at dusk would be nothing more than a horrible accident. Nobody would go to jail for an accident. Calling 911 as soon as he was noticed would be the logical thing to do.

When we were camping in Idaho last summer we nearly ran over our dog (leashed to the bumper of our truck) when backing up to hook up to the trailer. We were all sober. The dog had crawled under the truck for shade. My husband then got in and started backing up, not able to see the dog or leash in the rearview. Luckily I screamed for him to stop and no harm was done. But based on this experience I could totally see how a small child could be in the vicinity and not seen by a driver. A toddler's head would be about bumper height. If there was any significant blood or tissue on the bumper I would have assumed it would have been noticed in the initial search and media would not have gone on an on about a child either getting lost, abducted, or eaten by a wild animal. It should have been obvious from the beginning that it was an accident/cover up, unless the truck was cleaned well (maybe the real reason to go back to town Friday morning?) and no evidence was visible to the naked eye.

 

[Sillybilly]

Bickering posts and responses to them have been removed. Move on without further discussion of them.

:tyou:

 

[Purplepixii]

It's possible, but I dunno, I just can't see DK covering for an extended family member of JM's. Especially when the blame is being placed on DK instead.

Would he sacrifice his own welfare and his own future just so an older man who is not in his family wouldn't get in trouble for killing his own son? That seems very generous and would demonstrate an unexplainable level of loyalty.

RSBM

Stranger things have been done "in the name of love".

Anyway, my theories in this case flip-flop all over the place, I'll probably agree with you tomorrow then change my mind again on Monday

 

[giagreen]

This is similar to a theory I have, only I put the mysterious GGPA (we STILL haven't heard from him) at the wheel repositioning the vehicle - to me he's the 1 person all 3 would lie for.

This is what I think. But then I can't help but think would an older man running over a child really be something they would cover up? Why not just tell the truth if that's all it was. A horrible tragic accident.

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[CanSleuth]

Building on my most recent post (related to the theory Deorr was hit by the truck/run over during the set up of camp. I think it would be most likely if he was struck by the bumper of the truck (but only lightly)--with any one of the 4 adults at the wheel (probably GGPA or VDK). The truck would likely not be moving very fast in reverse. Perhaps just inching backwards. Deorr's height would put him in range of the bumper but out of range of the rearview mirriors. Perhaps he got struck in the head and knocked over, but the injury did not appear serious at first. A few tears, and a bump but no blood or broken bones. He may have actually suffered a concussion or bleeding on the brain that went undetected. Deorr could have passed away in his sleep overnight while JM and VDK were sleeping. They would have been shocked, confused and panicked when they got up in the morning and couldn't wake him. Perhaps they didn't call for help because it was obvious that he had been dead for many hours and no amount of emergency medicine would save him AND they didn't want to admit that the injury had occurred the night before (thinking they would be held negligent for not getting him medical attention) OR the parents may have still been high from drug use or hungover from alcohol use and not wanted to interact with LE and 911 early in the morning for fear of being blamed.

 

[LietKynes]

If there was any significant blood or tissue on the bumper I would have assumed it would have been noticed in the initial search and media would not have gone on an on about a child either getting lost, abducted, or eaten by a wild animal. It should have been obvious from the beginning that it was an accident/cover up, unless the truck was cleaned well (maybe the real reason to go back to town Friday morning?) and no evidence was visible to the naked eye.

SABBM Snipped for brevity

It almost seems like parts of this puzzle are falling into place --if this is what possibly occurred ?

Still wondering where IR fits into any of this --and I'd like to know if he ever saw DeOrr Jr. wide awake and scurrying around , or only saw him when he was asleep in his carseat ?

Just pondering out loud... but would like to hear SOMETHING from ggpa (RW) .
Is it possible Klein, SB, or someone in le interviewed him and they've kept that under wraps ? Or do any interviews have to be made public ?
MOO

 

[Mickshawn]

SABBM

Agreed and very well said !

And finally I think we might have a motive for the "less than truthful" , or outright lying from JM and DK.

It's been puzzling that if an accident happened-- why lie ?
Why not just say-- we were drinking or otherwise indulging , and went to move the truck and ran over our child accidentally....?

Was this obfuscation of the incident due to the fear of possible job loss , or someone temporarily losing their driver's license ?
Who knows ?

Please tell me that this is wrong or completely out in left field : that--to some -- possible fear of lost wages might be more important than your little one going missing or maybe deceased.

:moo:

..and I keep thinking maybe JM fearing losing all visiting privileges of her other 2 children?

 

[kammiemc]

RSBM

Stranger things have been done "in the name of love".

Anyway, my theories in this case flip-flop all over the place, I'll probably agree with you tomorrow then change my mind again on Monday

I guess it would make sense if he was covering because JM wanted him too. But then why kind of make him responsible for the disappearance by saying it happened under ggp's watch? Maybe a compromise?


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[CoverMeCagney]

This is what I think. But then I can't help but think would an older man running over a child really be something they would cover up? Why not just tell the truth if that's all it was. A horrible tragic accident.

Because whoever did it (not necessarily Grandpa) was drink driving? And they thought DeOrr would be ok in the morning. But then he wasn't?

Don't forget:

The sheriff said "they tried to get food" suggesting they didn't manage to and went to the SD possibly drinking on an empty stomach. Vernal could lose his licence if caught drink driving, Jessica could lose custody again.
They allowed people to think they arrived Friday therefore hoping to eliminate Thursday night from suspicion.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

SABBM Snipped for brevity

It almost seems like parts of this puzzle are falling into place --if this is what possibly occurred ?

Still wondering where IR fits into any of this --and I'd like to know if he ever saw DeOrr Jr. wide awake and scurrying around , or only saw him when he was asleep in his carseat ?

Just pondering out loud... but would like to hear SOMETHING from ggpa (RW) .
Is it possible Klein, SB, or someone in le interviewed him and they've kept that under wraps ? Or do any interviews have to be made public ?
MOO

Interviews do not have to be made public and no one has to submit to an interview.

 

[giagreen]

Because whoever did it (not necessarily Grandpa) was drink driving? And they thought DeOrr would be ok in the morning. But then he wasn't?

Don't forget:

The sheriff said "they tried to get food" suggesting they didn't manage to and went to the SD possibly drinking on an empty stomach. Vernal could lose his licence if caught drink driving, Jessica could lose custody again.
They allowed people to think they arrived Friday therefore hoping to eliminate Thursday night from suspicion.

Maybe. My only thing is that I don't see why IR would lie for VDK if he was the drunk driver. And I'm sure they wouldn't lie for him.

But I could see how all three might have motive to cover for ggp.

I think the weirdest thing about this case is that nobody has actually come out and accused the other.

I think the closest it got was VDK saying he left his son with a trusted and respected adult. Other wise IR seems to think the parents didn't do nothing. They don't seem to think IR did anything and then there is that one comment from VDK about the respected adult.



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[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Because whoever did it (not necessarily Grandpa) was drink driving? And they thought DeOrr would be ok in the morning. But then he wasn't?

Don't forget:

The sheriff said "they tried to get food" suggesting they didn't manage to and went to the SD possibly drinking on an empty stomach. Vernal could lose his licence if caught drink driving, Jessica could lose custody again.
They allowed people to think they arrived Friday therefore hoping to eliminate Thursday night from suspicion.

"Drink driving." I like that term! Never heard it before.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

"Drink driving." I like that term! Never heard it before.

Really? It's a very common term over the pond. I think you guys use DUI instead.

 

[giagreen]

SABBM Snipped for brevity

It almost seems like parts of this puzzle are falling into place --if this is what possibly occurred ?

Still wondering where IR fits into any of this --and I'd like to know if he ever saw DeOrr Jr. wide awake and scurrying around , or only saw him when he was asleep in his carseat ?

Just pondering out loud... but would like to hear SOMETHING from ggpa (RW) .
Is it possible Klein, SB, or someone in le interviewed him and they've kept that under wraps ? Or do any interviews have to be made public ?
MOO

Well if DeOrr was out and about to get ran over then IR would of had to have seen him other then in his carseat or sleeping.

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[CoverMeCagney]

Maybe. My only thing is that I don't see why IR would lie for VDK if he was the drunk driver. And I'm sure they wouldn't lie for him.

But I could see how all three might have motive to cover for ggp.

I think the weirdest thing about this case is that nobody has actually come out and accused the other.

I think the closest it got was VDK saying he left his son with a trusted and respected adult. Other wise IR seems to think the parents didn't do nothing. They don't seem to think IR did anything and then there is that one comment from VDK about the respected adult.

I'm not convinced IR would be aware. I'm not totally sure IR is aware of much and probably likes it that way. He confirmed he'd seen DeOrr and that could have been at the SD or at some point getting comforted by a parent. Nobody has ever said he saw him on Friday, and Klein's timeline starts at 8am when they'd be getting up.

It's just another option though isn't it? They couldn't call the police because they'd all had a few. They thought he'd just had a nasty bump and they'd take him back to the campground, get him to sleep, and then maybe pass off any injuries as a campsite accident the next day. Except there wasn't a next day for DeOrr and by then, as someone said upthread, they knew he'd been gone a few hours and panicked.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Regarding the suspects and POIs, accusations are most likely being discussed behind closed doors. Publicly accusing someone can have deep legal ramifications.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Really? It's a very common term over the pond. I think you guys use DUI instead.

Yep, or "drunk driving."

 

[giagreen]

I'm not convinced IR would be aware. I'm not totally sure IR is aware of much and probably likes it that way. He confirmed he'd seen DeOrr and that could have been at the SD or at some point getting comforted by a parent. Nobody has ever said he saw him on Friday, and Klein's timeline starts at 8am when they'd be getting up.

It's just another option though isn't it? They couldn't call the police because they'd all had a few. They thought he'd just had a nasty bump and they'd take him back to the campground, get him to sleep, and then maybe pass off any injuries as a campsite accident the next day. Except there wasn't a next day for DeOrr and by then, as someone said upthread, they knew he'd been gone a few hours and panicked.

IR is a hard character to know where to place in all this.

I guess I just imagine a bunch of drunk people running over a child to be dramatic and loud. Crying, yelling, blaming, and basically just a commotion that at some point he'd have to be awear that something was going on. Yet SB says IR says that he seen DeOrr after the store trip they made on Friday. Idk I can't make my mind up on any of it.

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[CoverMeCagney]

IR is a hard character to know where to place in all this.

I guess I just imagine a bunch of drunk people running over a child to be dramatic and loud. Crying, yelling, blaming, and basically just a commotion that at some point he'd have to be awear that something was going on. Yet SB says IR says that he seen DeOrr after the store trip they made on Friday. Idk I can't make my mind up on any of it.

I don't think many of us can, to be honest!

IR could still have been in the bar, or the toilet, or having a smoke, or they played it down not realising the severity of it, or they got him in the car with the door shut and IR saw/heard him then. I still think there's a chance either/both parents could have gone out the next morning to hide him, they had enough time do come up with a plan.

Hypothetically: Let's tell Grandpa and Isaac we have to get tampons, they won't question it, when we get back we'll act all "where's Deorr?"... but then when they get back IR is off fishing, even better: let's go find him and say we left DeOrr with Grandpa.


Maaaaayyyybeeee.

 

[desert-blue]

Because whoever did it (not necessarily Grandpa) was drink driving? And they thought DeOrr would be ok in the morning. But then he wasn't?

Don't forget:

The sheriff said "they tried to get food" suggesting they didn't manage to and went to the SD possibly drinking on an empty stomach. Vernal could lose his licence if caught drink driving, Jessica could lose custody again.
They allowed people to think they arrived Friday therefore hoping to eliminate Thursday night from suspicion.

I agree.

It also could be that DeOrr died instantly and by the time they sobered up, they knew if they called for help, the paramedics and/or coroner would be able to determine his time of death.

ETA: (Maybe IR and/or GGPA didn't go to the SD)