ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[KatieLiz]

Is there another cattle guard one & a half miles from the campsite? I believed VDK allegedly made his phone call by the one 400m from the camp.

400 m= 0.25 miles.... big difference from the 1.5 miles Vernal claims to have travelled...

 

[koios]

Thank you for that. Therefore, is it possible Klein has used the wrong location to determine the distance from the camp VDK travelled to make the 911 call - because he hadn't visited the site at the time of or used GE as well as you are able?

Ideally if they had been able to take him back up to the area and have him show them the spot where he made the 911 call, they would know the exact location, however that probably didn't happen.
If not then they must be using a distance estimated from a combination of distance said in V statements plus their time-distance study
In a press interview it was said to be about 0.5 mile, in a released snippet of a statement to KIC it was said to be about 1.5 miles, but there might be further information in unreleased statements.

 

[byo]

Is there another cattle guard one & a half miles from the campsite? I believed VDK allegedly made his phone call by the one 400m from the camp.

BBM

I added the other cattleguard (400m from camp) to the Case Map. Thanks, Misty!

 

[misty48]

Ideally if they had been able to take him back up to the area and have him show them the spot where he made the 911 call, they would know the exact location, however that probably didn't happen.
If not then they must be using a distance estimated from a combination of distance said in V statements plus their time-distance study
In a press interview it was said to be about 0.5 mile, in a released snippet of a statement to KIC it was said to be about 1.5 miles, but there might be further information in unreleased statements.

The original "horse's mouth" said approx half a mile in the first interview, We haven't seen or heard a second statement from VDK altering the distance, only the word of the PI afaik.
Therefore, if VDK was only 400m from JA when he made his 911 call, he could have easily driven back to camp in under 3 minutes.

 

[KatieLiz]

The original "horse's mouth" said approx half a mile in the first interview, We haven't seen or heard a second statement from VDK altering the distance, only the word of the PI afaik.
Therefore, if VDK was only 400m from JA when he made his 911 call, he could have easily driven back to camp in under 3 minutes.

But it has been stated that this is a lie.

 

[koios]

No. It is not dirt road all the way from Leadore. The first part is paved. The 6 miles in the other article is probably referring to the part that is not paved.
And if you knew your baby was missing and lost, wouldn't you drive back to camp so very slowly, because he could be in the road, he could be in the sagebrush to either side of the road, so you would be looking from side to side to see if you could spot him. You would be afraid that if you drove quickly, you might run over him if he emerged from the brush into the road, you would be driving slowly, scanning for his blonde hair or blue pants, hoping against hope that you would see him. Right?
And the dirt road is full of deep ruts and big rocks and No, you cannot drive 20 or 15 mph. And if you didn't know where your little beloved 2 yr. old was, and there was brush surrounding the road your were driving on, you would be focused on looking side to side, not driving as fast as you could. Right?

I checked and you are right about the road surface. From Leadore the first 3.1 miles are surfaced with some kind of grit surfacing, and the remaining 6.5 miles are dirt-track.

Your assertions about safe driving speed are correct, I could not agree with you more. However the actual speed of driving away from the campsite was considerably faster (unless there is a serious misprint in the H section of my truckers slang dictionary).

 

[misty48]

But it has been stated that this is a lie.

It is only a lie if you are using incorrect & assumed location information.

 

[koios]

BBM

I added the other cattleguard (400m from camp) to the Case Map. Thanks, Misty!

Thanks byo. One thing missing from that map is the actual campsite. This picture will help find it. Campfire circled.

 

[TxJan1971]

The original "horse's mouth" said approx half a mile in the first interview, We haven't seen or heard a second statement from VDK altering the distance, only the word of the PI afaik.
Therefore, if VDK was only 400m from JA when he made his 911 call, he could have easily driven back to camp in under 3 minutes.

BBM:
Nope! That is not true! "We" didn't hear "only the word of the PI" -- as it was VDK himself who "changed his story." IMO, this particular critical piece of the timeline is just one of the many, ever-changing stories that Bowerman and Klein have told us about repeatedly in MSM, etc. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall someone asked KIC about this same "hauling down the road" activity, and his response was, (paraphrasing) - "This is but one statement of VDK's - but there are 8 others!

To save you the hassle of scrolling back to find it, here's a cut & paste of my previous post on this - post #716 this same thread:

July 13, 2015
Direct Quote from VDK

VDK:
It was 2:36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So she got very very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't think…I didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my…talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile down the road.

Versus:

VDK's Written Statement:

VDK:
Dirt road looking at my phone till I seen I had 2 bars of 3 g service. I slammed on the brakes. I was about 1.5 miles from camp. I call 911 and told them I lost my son but couldn’t remember the name of where I was. I

Unknown date. (Note: If Klein asked VDK to write this statement, it had to have been in November 2015 when he first came on board. If this is a LE statement that Klein used, then the date could be early on in the investigation. My money is Klein asked VDK to write this but stand to be corrected if otherwise.)


Corroborating the discrepancy:

Klein:
The Cell Phone Impact study was able to determine that Vernal Kunz’s testimony was fabricated. As well it was determined that Vernal Kunz’s testimony that he drove 1.5 miles to get a cell signal was not truthful.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/07...orr-kunz-case/

 

[misty48]

BBM:
Nope! That is not true! "We" didn't hear "only the word of the PI" -- as it was VDK himself who "changed his story." IMO, this particular critical piece of the timeline is just one of the many, ever-changing stories that Bowerman and Klein have told us about repeatedly in MSM, etc. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall someone asked KIC about this same "hauling down the road" activity, and his response was, (paraphrasing) - "This is but one statement of VDK's - but there are 8 others!

To save you the hassle of scrolling back to find it, here's a cut & paste of my previous post on this - post #716 this same thread:

July 13, 2015
Direct Quote from VDK

VDK:
It was 2:36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So she got very very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't think…I didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my…talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile down the road.

Versus:

VDK's Written Statement:

VDK:
Dirt road looking at my phone till I seen I had 2 bars of 3 g service. I slammed on the brakes. I was about 1.5 miles from camp. I call 911 and told them I lost my son but couldn’t remember the name of where I was. I

Unknown date. (Note: If Klein asked VDK to write this statement, it had to have been in November 2015 when he first came on board. If this is a LE statement that Klein used, then the date could be early on in the investigation. My money is Klein asked VDK to write this but stand to be corrected if otherwise.)


Corroborating the discrepancy:

Klein:
The Cell Phone Impact study was able to determine that Vernal Kunz’s testimony was fabricated. As well it was determined that Vernal Kunz’s testimony that he drove 1.5 miles to get a cell signal was not truthful.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/07...orr-kunz-case/

That particular link is not available.
Possibly a verbal statement made by VDK was transcribed by a member of Klein Investigations who misheard or incorrectly recorded the distance. If we cannot see a signed & dated statement then it is difficult to accuse anyone of lying. Surely the statements made to LE would not have been shown to the PI's - as per Sheriff B in his Websleuths interview.
The Cell Phone Impact would be inaccurate if Klein was using a distance of 1.5 miles instead of the correct distance.

 

[KatieLiz]

It is only a lie if you are using incorrect & assumed location information.

That doesn't make sense.

It's a lie if it didn't happen. Which is what LE has stated.

I believe here at websleuths we go by what LE reports. Someone, correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[KatieLiz]

That particular link is not available.
Possibly a verbal statement made by VDK was transcribed by a member of Klein Investigations who misheard or incorrectly recorded the distance. If we cannot see a signed & dated statement then it is difficult to accuse anyone of lying. Surely the statements made to LE would not have been shown to the PI's - as per Sheriff B in his Websleuths interview.
The Cell Phone Impact would be inaccurate if Klein was using a distance of 1.5 miles instead of the correct distance.

<modsnip>
"We don't have a video showing the suspect say this, how can we trust what the police wrote in their report?"

<modsnip> It's their job to report the information accurately. If they made errors in their cases they wouldn't have jobs. It's called being a professional.

And you say they used 1.5 miles "instead of the correct distance". Are you Vernal? Because only Vernal knows "the correct distance". And let's remember all this info is public and Vernal hasn't once disputed it.

 

[Onebest]

Assuming a maximum walking speed of 1.5 mph.
If the 1st period (when he was unwatched) was 10 minutes, he could have walked 1/4 mile.
If the 2nd period (the pre-911 search) was 20 minutes, he could have walked a further 1/2 mile.
So he could have been 3/4 mile away at the time 911 was called MOO.

These must be strictly hypothetical "periods" that you are speculating about right? To the best of my recall the only periods I read in any official report had to do with JM-whatever her name is now starting hers while camping. Glad to be corrected if need be. JMO

 

[misty48]

<modsnip>

"We don't have a video showing the suspect say this, how can we trust what the police wrote in their report?"

<modsnip> It's their job to report the information accurately. If they made errors in their cases they wouldn't have jobs. It's called being a professional.

And you say they used 1.5 miles "instead of the correct distance". Are you Vernal? Because only Vernal knows "the correct distance". And let's remember all this info is public and Vernal hasn't once disputed it.

We do have evidence on a video of VDK referring to about half a mile.
We do not have a signed & dated statement by VDK altering the distance to one & a half miles.
It is unprofessional to assume the location at which VDK made his call and base all analysis of the call around that assumption. I would hope that LE/FV had established the location of the 911 call when they did their reconstruction with the parents in 2015. Klein Investigations could not do that due to weather conditions.

 

[koios]

Full recording of J's 911 call
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/
My own transcript (not an official transcript) starting at 34 seconds, MOO.

911Lady: Are you by water?
J: Yes
911Lady: Ok stay on the phone with me ok?
J: Ok
911Lady: I'm going to put you on hold.
911Lady(speaking to 911 man): John!
911Man(in background): yeah
911Lady(speaking to 911 man): I may..." (911Lady suddenly stops sentence here)

Here is how I interpret the audio and it all just my opinion:
It is 911Lady's voice that says "John. I may..."
And it is not "I made the call", nor is it "I made...", it is "I may..."
It can't be J's voice because there is no-one called John at the campground.
Also "John. I may..." has no cellphone distortion.
911Lady, as soon as she hears J say there is water present, puts J on hold and turns to 911Man to say something like "John. We may need search and rescue"
But she stops after "I may" and I assume this is because 911Man is hand-signalling something like "wait" because he can't interrupt the call he is handling.
All MOO.

 

[misty48]

That doesn't make sense.

It's a lie if it didn't happen. Which is what LE has stated.

I believe here at websleuths we go by what LE reports. Someone, correct me if I'm wrong?

Have LE commented on the veracity of Klein Investigations cell phone impact study?

 

[KatieLiz]

We do have evidence on a video of VDK referring to about half a mile.
We do not have a signed & dated statement by VDK altering the distance to one & a half miles.
It is unprofessional to assume the location at which VDK made his call and base all analysis of the call around that assumption. I would hope that LE/FV had established the location of the 911 call when they did their reconstruction with the parents in 2015. Klein Investigations could not do that due to weather conditions.

Do you even read the responses TxJan posts to you? She gave you the info on this just one page ago.

VDK has made more than 1 statement. Yes his initial statement is 0.5 miles. Which he changes to 1.5 miles in his WRITTEN statement.

LE and Klein are NOT required to release this written statement to us. It is for the jury and we are NOT the jury. If they have made a statement saying this is what is in his written statement then that is what is considered the "truth" that would be used in court. 1.5 miles is from Vernal's mouth. Unless you are Vernal it isn't accurate for you to say that 1.5 miles is not the correct distance.

Just because WE do not have the signed and dated statement does not take away it's legitimacy. This is not made up information this is the case facts. Vernal has made 8 or 9 changing stories- 2 of which are 0.5 miles and 1.5 miles. End of story. There is no debate because he made the statements and contradicted himself.

 

[KatieLiz]

Have LE commented on the veracity of Klein Investigations cell phone impact study?

I think you know the answer to that.
Have they disputed anything Klein says? No, they haven't. And if it was compromising their investigation they would stop him or make a statement that he is not to be believed.

Not to mentions the lawsuit filed by J and V hasn't moved since the day it was filed.

It's common sense. If what Klein was saying was inaccurate someone would have spoken out. Face of the matter, no one has.

 

[Onebest]

Ideally if they had been able to take him back up to the area and have him show them the spot where he made the 911 call, they would know the exact location, however that probably didn't happen.
If not then they must be using a distance estimated from a combination of distance said in V statements plus their time-distance study
In a press interview it was said to be about 0.5 mile, in a released snippet of a statement to KIC it was said to be about 1.5 miles, but there might be further information in unreleased statements.

How on earth would you know if this did or did not happen? These unsubstanciated statements stated as fact are very disconcerting. IMO

 

[koios]

KIC released not merely a transcription, but an actual image of those four lines of the handwritten statement.