ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

[Sparky]

:stop:

Please stop posting the link to the FB page that's not allowed here per TOS. Also, no rumors. No sleuthing the family. Thank you!

 

[shellbythesea]

It's all over the news everywhere here. We have had a few other "incidences" here, but this is by far the strangest.

 

[La Louve]

"We've got a pack of wolves in there -- about 15 of them," Bowerman said. "We actually chased one out the day before yesterday."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/2...den-yield-no-clues-in-hunt-for-idaho-toddler/

There's an interesting comment under this article. To paraphrase, they way that with 15 wolves right in the area, there would be a high nutritional requirement to keep all of them fed. Now I've read that wolves don't often attack humans, but if the wolves are getting the big share of the local food source, it could be that cougars, etc, would be hungrier. More competition for a food source.

Good post!

Some stats on how much wolves eat:
"Wolves require at least 3.7 pounds of meat per day for minimum maintenance. Reproducing and growing wolves may need 2-3 times this much. It has been estimated that wolves consume around 10 pounds of meat per day, on average. However, wolves don’t actually eat everyday. Instead, they live a feast or famine lifestyle; they may go several days [ETA as many as 10-14 days] without a meal and then gorge on over 20 pounds of meat when a kill is made.

In Minnesota, each wolf in eats an average of 15-20 adult-sized deer or their equivalent per year to meet their nutritional requirements,. Based on this average, and the estimate of 2,400 wolves in Minnesota, wolves kill the equivalent of about 36,000 to 48,000 adult-sized deer per year. In comparison, Minnesota hunters take around 52,500 deer per year in wolf range (over 250,000 for the entire state) and several thousand are killed during collisions with vehicles." http://www.wolf.org/learn/basic-wolf-info/biology-and-behavior/hunting-feeding-behavior/ ETA note I realize this data is from Minnesota but I have personally been to the facility at that website and I trust their data. I believe Idaho wolves' eating behavior would be very similar.

In a fifteen wolf pack, there were probably 3 or 4 pups born this year, probably the same number of juvenile yearlings, maybe a couple or 3 two year olds, and a couple betas that are siblings to the two alphas. To maintain that large of a pack, food supply has to be reliable and plentiful. I don't know if there would be enough predation to stress the resident cougar population though. I think if Deorr was attacked by a wild animal it was opportunistic.

 

[nervous_nellie]

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2012/02/03/would-real-wolves-act-like-the-wolves-of-the-grey/

Daniel MacNulty, a wildlife-ecology professor at Utah State University whose research on Arctic wolves is funded in part by the National Geographic Society.
First off, would wolves see men as prey and stalk them in the wild? I’d think that in a remote area like this one, wolves might fear or avoid humans.
In my 16 years of studying wolves in Yellowstone National Park, I have never been approached by a wolf or wolf pack. On the contrary, when I’ve inadvertently bumped into wolves they turn and run away—which is a problem when my objective is to observe them!

I dont know what I think of the wolf theory, but I do think there would be some evidence found since the wolf would not eat bones...moo

 

[pappa rob]

Yesterday or the day before, I inquired about "the creek" by the campsite...and I believe someone mentioned it had a few forks?

I wonder if ALL these forks got searched as well.

Anybody know?

With most creeks and rivers the forks would be up stream or flowing into the creek. Why would you need to check them, stuff doesn't float upstream. Sometimes a river or creek will have channels that would split apart for a short distance. I would think that SAR would check anything like that out.

 

[La Louve]

I dont know what I think of the wolf theory, but I do think there would be some evidence found since the wolf would not eat bones...moo[/FONT]

RSBM that is incorrect. Wolves will eat and digest bones. You can track wolves by observing their scat. The last thing they digest is bones and those poops are nearly pure white. I learned this in Minnesota at the International Wolf Center (link quoted in my previous post). We went out in the woods with one of the resident wolf biologists to howl for wolves. It was very cool and we got a bonus of Aurora Borealis when we were back at the parking lot at 1 a.m.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

BBM that is incorrect. Wolves will eat and digest bones. You can track wolves by observing their scat. The last thing they digest is bones and those poops are nearly pure white. I learned this in Minnesota at the International Wolf Center (link quoted in my previous post). We went out in the woods with one of the resident wolf biologists to howl for wolves. It was very cool and we got a bonus of Aurora Borealis when we were back at the parking lot at 1 a.m.

What an exciting experience!

:wolf2:

 

[gitana1]

I wish MSM was as quick as SM is, especially if what I'm reading on SM is true!
:tantrum:

SM is unfounded rumor. MSM is backed up. I've seen so much nonsense on SM in these cases that was utter garbage. That's why we don;t get sucked into the rabbit hole on websleuths.

As SM is (rightly) not deemed a quotable source all anyone reading it can do is allude to what they're reading. Then, if someone sleuths this it's up to them. Consequently the point of these posts is to guide sleuthers to what is out there on the internet, without breaking the TOS.

Well, that's how I see it anyway
JMO


ETA: If I have misunderstood the TOS then I apologise. Having re-read the TOS perhaps I should have said:

This is a rumour, not fact, as it is on SM not MSM. Comments by "CG" are (IMHO) interesting.

It is simple. You can say, "Interesting comments on the twitter account of, [MEDIA OR PUBLIC ENTITY], [or on a Facebook group, or media article], by a person with the initials, blank, blank, posted at blank o'clock." That's what we typically do with rumor and social media. But making vague comments about things or slyly alluding to something that may be happening is not cool.

Yeah, I agree leilarose. It's like LE saying they're "solid" as if that clears them. Sorry but that isn't any kind of official term with any official meaning. They can only end speculation by saying "the family are not suspects" - and nothing less. See the William Tyrrell case, where police have made it very clear over and over again that they have investigated family thoroughly and they are not suspects. They don't mince words and say "they're not suspects at this time" or call them "solid". They just say they are not suspects.

I am NOT saying anything about the family - just about the language LE use.

The Lemhi County sheriff office said neither the boy's parents, nor foul play is suspected. Mom Jessica Mitchell and dad Deorr Kunz Sr., have taken polygraph tests and been cleared of suspicion. Idaho police have repeatedly assured the public that they do not suspect the parents. http://www.examiner.com/article/missing-idaho-toddler-deorr-kunz-jr-parents-foul-play-not-suspected

Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman says the parents are not suspects in the case.http://www.localnews8.com/news/Search-for-DeOrr-Kunz-scaled-back/34255568

The parents of a missing 2-year-old Idaho boy who's been missing for 10 days are not considered suspects into the disappearance of the child, sheriff's officials say.Sheriff Lynn D. Bowerman said in the statement that family members have cooperated and volunteered to take polygraphs for the investigation. Bowerman also hasn't ruled out a stranger abduction or possibly even that wild animals may played a role. http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/DeOrr-Kunz-Missing-Idaho-317566701.html

I agree.

In this particular case, I really think the Sheriff has hurt himself and caused a lot of the questions and rumors by putting out contradicting and incomplete information.

Like talking only about 1/2 of the people that were present. It may have been better to just say nothing than to do that.

It is probably because he is not experienced in such an important and time sensitive case such as this, but he would have to know that people and the news sites are wanting to know every bread crumb they can find to help find the boy.

This below is an example of the inconsistent statements we have seen which I feel contribute to the problems this case is facing in the media.

First he says the drone is being brought in to help search and then he says they are not looking for anything in particular. That is sheer contradiction. Its no wonder media and people have questions.

"A remote-operated drone will be used Wednesday to help with the search in the area where the two-year-old disappeared. Bowerman said the Twin Falls County Sheriff’s Office will fly their drone in an effort to cover areas that are difficult to access on foot.

“They are just photographing the area in case this should ever turn into a criminal investigation,” Bowerman said. “They are not looking for anything in particular, just a photo of the area in general.”"

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/lemhi-sheriff-on-deorr-kunz-we-do-not-suspect-foul-play/

To me it just shows that even though they do not suspect foul play, they are investigating every avenue, as they should.

You have 4 adults with this child. 2 of them with child at any given moment. 10 min window for a 2 year old to completely vanish from a wilderness with very rough terrain. Nothing found. No clothes, no boots. No blood or traces of clothing. Its almost impossible to imagine how this could have happened. jmo

But it has happened many times.

Laura Bradbury: http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-bradbury-ss-htmlstory.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/19/local/la-me-0920-bradbury-second-20100918-58

Gage Wayment: http://www.pulitzer.org/works/2002-Feature-Writing

Dennis Martin: http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/2014/05/22/dennis-martin-missing-45-years/9405607/
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/local-news/missing-dennis-martin

Douglas Legg: http://poststar.com/news/local/year...cle_8a42bf94-af20-11e0-835c-001cc4c03286.html

Bobby Dunbar (I read a fascinating book about his case. No trace of him. Not a thing): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Bobby_Dunbar

 

[La Louve]

What an exciting experience!

:wolf2:

OT but yes, it was. It's in the Iron Mountain range of NE Minnesota. Beautiful country.

We didn't get any wolves to answer our howls, but we did scare some high school kids that were out partying in the woods nearby. LOL

 

[Elainera]

It's all over the news everywhere here. We have had a few other "incidences" here, but this is by far the strangest.

What are you talking about? What is all over the news? Link?

 

[Jules71]

I'm sure we've seen this before but I thought it was interesting to read again and noted the date 7/13/15 was just 3 days into the search.
SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15 LMS

Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told the Lemhi County Commissioners Monday, July 13, that based on the intense and extensive search conducted near Leadore for two year old Deorr Kunz Jr., it doesn’t make sense that the boy was not found.

Bowerman said the trained search dogs found nothing and kept coming back to the camp. Helicopters were used day and night to fly the area and fly over Stone Reservoir which is shallow enough to see to the bottom. He said divers explored the lake while approximately 150 volunteers on foot and on horseback conducted a thorough three mile grid-search of Timber Creek. The possibility of abduction by bear, wolf or mountain lion is not being ruled out although no trace of the boy or his apparel, which included oversized cowboy boots, was found.

The small boy disappeared Friday, July 10, from the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir. Bowerman said Timber Creek terrain is steep and rugged and is a mix of sagebrush and timber. He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day.

Commissioner Chairman Rick Snyder described the area where the family was camped as being at the lake’s outlet which is very steep with very fast moving water flowing through brush and trees and limbs, all of which were pulled apart by searchers. Bowerman said people in wet suits were in the creek searching every hole.

The search has been officially suspended. The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved.

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap


Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[SleuthMom]

Mom Jessica Mitchell and dad Deorr Kunz Sr., have taken polygraph tests and been cleared of suspicion.

Hi Gitana, in which link you quoted it states that they took polygraph tests and they have been cleared of suspicion? Thanks in advance.

 

[Sheoftensaid]

As rare as animal attacks are they do happen. Everyone remembers Azaria Chamberlain - and it was years until a trace of her was found (and only after the mom had already been in jail a few years...) since LE doesn't think the parents are involved I do think it was an animal.

 

[Cardinal47]

Didn't a poster say earlier today there would be news on the case today? I took that to mean something would be told in the local papers. I am seeing nothing???

 

[SleuthMom]

Didn't a poster say earlier today there would be news on the case today? I took that to mean something would be told in the local papers. I am seeing nothing???

Yes, I was told they will have information on the friend of the great-grandfather later today. I don't know what happened.

 

[nervous_nellie]

RSBM that is incorrect. Wolves will eat and digest bones. You can track wolves by observing their scat. The last thing they digest is bones and those poops are nearly pure white. I learned this in Minnesota at the International Wolf Center (link quoted in my previous post). We went out in the woods with one of the resident wolf biologists to howl for wolves. It was very cool and we got a bonus of Aurora Borealis when we were back at the parking lot at 1 a.m.

So then that means a wolf/wolves ate absolutely every last bit of him including his clothing and boots and the dogs were unable to pick up anything?

I still dont know what I think of the wolf theory...lol

 

[jashrema]

I don't understand all the hooplah about the ggf friend. He/she was there at the campsite when Deorr went missing, I get that. Is the assumption that somehow this person abducted and hid Deorr while the parents were on a walk and great grandpa was busy getting gear unloaded ? If that is even remotely possible, then how does one abduct, silence, bury(?), and cover up the crime scene to the point that 200 searchers find no evidence of any kind ?

Oh, and you do it all in about 10 minutes with a living witness just a few feet away.........yeah.........okay.

I think the hoopla comes from NO INFO about the friend in media.

 

[sarx]

While a small child could be intriguing to a wolf perhaps, the problem with this theory is that adults were around up until presumably the last few minutes. Wolves want nothing to do with "another" pack, especially the human variety. They would not hang around to see if the adults left.

 

[Cardinal47]

While a small child could be intriguing to a wolf perhaps, the problem with this theory is that adults were around up until presumably the last few minutes. Wolves want nothing to do with "another" pack, especially the human variety. They would not hang around to see if the adults left.

Does anybody happen to know how far this den of 15 wolves was from the campsite. TIA

 

[Elainera]

I'm sure we've seen this before but I thought it was interesting to read again and noted the date 7/13/15 was just 3 days into the search.
SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15 LMS

Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told the Lemhi County Commissioners Monday, July 13, that based on the intense and extensive search conducted near Leadore for two year old Deorr Kunz Jr., it doesn’t make sense that the boy was not found.

Bowerman said the trained search dogs found nothing and kept coming back to the camp. Helicopters were used day and night to fly the area and fly over Stone Reservoir which is shallow enough to see to the bottom. He said divers explored the lake while approximately 150 volunteers on foot and on horseback conducted a thorough three mile grid-search of Timber Creek. The possibility of abduction by bear, wolf or mountain lion is not being ruled out although no trace of the boy or his apparel, which included oversized cowboy boots, was found.

The small boy disappeared Friday, July 10, from the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir. Bowerman said Timber Creek terrain is steep and rugged and is a mix of sagebrush and timber. He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day.

Commissioner Chairman Rick Snyder described the area where the family was camped as being at the lake’s outlet which is very steep with very fast moving water flowing through brush and trees and limbs, all of which were pulled apart by searchers. Bowerman said people in wet suits were in the creek searching every hole.

The search has been officially suspended. The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved.

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap


Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Thank you Jules.

Despite the part I bolded I still believe he's in the creek.