ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #30

[MistyM]

i am sure if there was any clarification needed it was asked. look at it objectively and take it for how it's said. well that's how i roll...

i am enjoying the 'debate' though. this page could go cold with no new info coming, so clarifying and verifying things done and said is a great way to think outside of the box and keeps little deorr in our memory... (although most of us think he is gone, i don't want to forget about him, i want to help figure things out)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Great but what is the earliest possible day and time, in your opinion?
Also based on what they have publicly stated what is the earliest possible day and time in LE and in PI's current states of knowledge?

My opinion: Sometimes before Thursday 5pm. Earliest time would be connected to the opportunity whether the parents could hide the body at the home (shed?) of a currently unknown friend/family member and whether there was - sorry - a freezer. Maybe Tuesday/Wednesday perhaps? :dunno:

IMO It must have been so very early that the parents had already overcome the "shock" on Thursday 5pm.

 

[neesaki]

Well, someone's either lying or has very bad memory recall.
In the video interview clip Klein does with J, she says her and VDK were at the creek, IR had left and gone back to the campsite. Then, she saw IR come back down with his pole , then VDK yelled that they couldn't find Deorr, he was missing.

IR had stated in his interview that he was taking J and VDK down to the creek, but VDK and Deorr were lagging behind when he looked back. Then, while he was fishing he saw GGP pacing above and said Deorr was missing.

Does anyone have a theory on how the accounts could be different if not due to deception? I have to admit that in that interview with Klein, J comes across as fairly believable. I just don't know anymore what to believe, except that someone did something to that baby to cause his disappearance. JMO

 

[koios]

Well, someone's either lying or has very bad memory recall.
In the video interview clip Klein does with J, she says her and VDK were at the creek, IR had left and gone back to the campsite. Then, she saw IR come back down with his pole , then VDK yelled that they couldn't find Deorr, he was missing.

IR had stated in his interview that he was taking J and VDK down to the creek, but VDK and Deorr were lagging behind when he looked back. Then, while he was fishing he saw GGP pacing above and said Deorr was missing.

Does anyone have a theory on how the accounts could be different if not due to deception? I have to admit that in that interview with Klein, J comes across as fairly believable. I just don't know anymore what to believe, except that someone did something to that baby to cause his disappearance. JMO

It is interesting, and important, to try to unravel this. I think someone said in an interview something like that IR went to the end of the cul-de-sac area and from that location pointed out fishing spot(s). The way I interpret that (maybe wrongly) is that the cul-de-sac refers to the south end of the deforested area which is vegetated with grass and sagebrush with only occasional trees and bushes. Again the way I interpret it is he pointed out the fishing spot(s), not by accompanying anyone down the slope, but by pointing out from above, from the top of the slope, near the end of the campground. But I might be wrong. All MOO.

 

[koios]

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInves...864945696095/1131180406964542/?type=2&theater
Provisional transcript starting at 3:25 (-4:39), improvements welcome.
" ..... we got up to the top part of the culdesac area, and Issac said ... pointed to the creek and said 'right here, right here, right here, is where we fished and caught fish', and he turned around and walked towards the campground, and left me and Deorr standing there ....."
Sounds like this is standing at the top of the bank slope, pointing out the fishing spots below?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I remember vague that J and V were going down to the creek with IR. They had asked IR to show where he had caught some fish before (while J and V were on their drive to Leadore). When J and V were going she (J) looked back (said it 3 x) to be sure little Deorr wouldn't follow but staying with GGP.

I can't find a link.

 

[skinnycat]

I remember vague that J and V were going down to the creek with IR. They had asked IR to show where he had caught some fish before (while J and V were on their drive to Leadore). When J and V were going she (J) looked back (said it 3 x) to be sure little Deorr wouldn't follow but staying with GGP.

I can't find a link.

I remember that, it is what has always given me a little glimmer of hope that Jessica gave little DeOrr away, she kept looking to make sure the person took him.

 

[neesaki]

I remember that, it is what has always given me a little glimmer of hope that Jessica gave little DeOrr away, she kept looking to make sure the person took him.

Or because she knew it was the last time she'd ever see him again? :thinking:

 

[Sweetiemom]

Klein has posted an update on the Deorr case on his Facebook page...quite interesting.

 

[koios]

Quoting from the recent KIC release
'.... we have two sets of fresh eyes on this case that specialize in "cold cases." We have asked them to go over everything we have obtained. As well, our entire investigative team has started back from Day 1. We are in the process of going over everything with a fine tooth comb ....'

By bringing in fresh eyes, MOO they correctly recognise the importance of independent review of "everything", without restriction, and MOO without excluding scenarios previously stated to have been "ruled out beyond reasonable doubt".
A parallel approach for this forum, would be to follow that sterling example, and allow our (albeit amateur) fresh eyes and minds to constructively examine every theory and scenario, without restriction, MOO.

 

[bluesneakers]

<modsnip>

I believe investigators will continue to look at all possibilities they haven't eliminated whether or not we've exhausted them here. For instance LE can obviously investigate or question friends and family members though they are off-limits to us.

 

[koios]

I respect forum rules on any subject not allowed to be discussed. In the big picture, there's an important principle MOO that constructive posts are welcome even if they differ from one of the conclusions reached by private or public investigators. Taken to the extreme, here's an example "three people know what happened". I think it's important, essential, that people should be allowed to voice opinions/theories which differ from that. Because if not, all theories which proposed that even one two or all of those people is innocent would be out of bounds.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I respect forum rules on any subject not allowed to be discussed. In the big picture, there's an important principle MOO that constructive posts are welcome even if they differ from one of the conclusions reached by private or public investigators. Taken to the extreme, here's an example "three people know what happened". I think it's important, essential, that people should be allowed to voice opinions/theories which differ from that. Because if not, all theories which proposed that even one two or all of those people is innocent would be out of bounds.

Thing is, Koios, we all started out 30,000 posts ago being a bit more open minded, but then that pesky policeman told us the parents know where DeOrr is. At that point I guess we may have become a little less constructive.

We spent two billion years discussing / debating / dissecting every nuance of the life of a mountain lion before the Sheriff said "stop, my friends, we've ruled it right out".

Cynical? Jaded? Less than trusting?

All of the above. But please blame the authorities, they put us here.

 

[koios]

Thing is, Koios, we all started out 30,000 posts ago being a bit more open minded, but then that pesky policeman told us the parents know where DeOrr is. At that point I guess we may have become a little less constructive.

We spent two billion years discussing / debating / dissecting every nuance of the life of a mountain lion before the Sheriff said "stop, my friends, we've ruled it right out".

Cynical? Jaded? Less than trusting?

All of the above. But please blame the authorities, they put us here.

I'm keen also to discuss the theories which have not been officially ruled out, which are actively considered by both investigations, and one example is the theory that DK was not present on the trip to Leadore on Friday. What ideas do people have about that theory? For example, would that mean something happened on Friday morning before the trip to Leadore? Or that something happened on Thursday evening?

 

[Lilibet]

I'm keen also to discuss the theories which have not been officially ruled out, which are actively considered by both investigations, and one example is the theory that DK was not present on the trip to Leadore on Friday. What ideas do people have about that theory? For example, would that mean something happened on Friday morning before the trip to Leadore? Or that something happened on Thursday evening?

You'll have to help us out here. I'm not sure how anyone of us with no evidence at our disposal could have a coherent idea about when something might have happened to DeOrr before the camping trip. We can't just make up something out of thin air. And thin air is all we've been given. Where are your ideas about this theory going to come from. Honest question. No snark intended.

 

[Lilibet]

I respect forum rules on any subject not allowed to be discussed. In the big picture, there's an important principle MOO that constructive posts are welcome even if they differ from one of the conclusions reached by private or public investigators. Taken to the extreme, here's an example "three people know what happened". I think it's important, essential, that people should be allowed to voice opinions/theories which differ from that. Because if not, all theories which proposed that even one two or all of those people is innocent would be out of bounds.

I'd suggest taking up your thoughts about what should or should not be allowed with a mod. They would be in the best position to make any adjustments if they feel it's warranted. With that being said, these threads have caused major headaches for mods and have been shut down numerous times because the discussions cease to be constructive. I would also say that posts differing from the conclusions reached by investigators are not constructive. They have facts and evidence we don't have. On what basis are we able to differ with LE's conclusions without appearing to insult their efforts and getting into disputes?
JMO

 

[misty48]

I'm keen also to discuss the theories which have not been officially ruled out, which are actively considered by both investigations, and one example is the theory that DK was not present on the trip to Leadore on Friday. What ideas do people have about that theory? For example, would that mean something happened on Friday morning before the trip to Leadore? Or that something happened on Thursday evening?

If DK was not present, either alive or dead, on the camping trip, KI's cadaver dog findings at the campground are worthless - meaning that there is no intelligence suggesting the lad is deceased.

 

[koios]

If DK was not present, either alive or dead, on the camping trip, KI's cadaver dog findings at the campground are worthless - meaning that there is no intelligence suggesting the lad is deceased.

I think the best place to look, on whether he arrived at the campsite or not, would be at the most recently released professional theories of LE and KI. There has been some doubt expressed about whether he was on the Friday trip to town, based on the absence of definite sightings at shop and pump, but that doesn't rule out arrival at campground on Thursday MOO.

 

[Bemsmom]

I am chiming in late on this one, but it actually makes sense that Jessica personally HAD to call 9-1-1. She called her mother a bunch of times in a "panic" and her mother told HER to call 9-1-1. She would have no good excuse for not calling at that point and surely her mother would have told the LEOs that she told Jessica to call.

As for V calling, they might have agreed to have V do it before knowing that Jessica would be forced to call on her own. If she was arguing on the phone with her mom, and grandpa heard it, he could have taken it on himself to call.

 

[Sillybilly]

A parallel approach for this forum, would be to follow that sterling example, and allow our (albeit amateur) fresh eyes and minds to constructively examine every theory and scenario, without restriction, MOO.

<snip>

Members may examine things within Websleuths Terms of Service aka The Rules and/or as advised by management. We have thousands of members who post within TOS, and we don't change the rules just because a member feels they should be different.

ETA: Just jumping off this post on another matter ...

Discussion about family lineage has been removed.

Please do not bring info to WS from unknown blogs and present them as fact without being willing or able to provide a link to sources acceptable to Websleuths. Otherwise, the info is considered rumor and is not up for discussion at WS.

:tyou: