ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #30

[misty48]

I think the best place to look, on whether he arrived at the campsite or not, would be at the most recently released professional theories of LE and KI. There has been some doubt expressed about whether he was on the Friday trip to town, based on the absence of definite sightings at shop and pump, but that doesn't rule out arrival at campground on Thursday MOO.

I find it hard to believe that LE/KI would base their professional theories solely on the absence of independent sightings of Deorr at the shop or gas station.
Four people on the trip have said he was there.
The tracker dogs first on the scene trailed to the reservoir.
There were clothing & personal effects pertaining to Deorr at the site.
The consistency in all 4 statements is that he was present at the commencement of the trip to the fishing hole in the afternoon. Whatever happened, it occurred after that point in time IMO.
If LE/KI had solid evidence placing the lad elsewhere at the time the journey to Timber Creek first started on the Thursday I think we would have heard about it by now.

 

[Hoosier952]

From a bit of googling I am guessing that If V had a GPS phone E-9-1-1 would report his phone's exact GPS location.
But if he had a non-GPS phone E-9-1-1 would only report mast location, which would be useful only to automatically route the call to the relevant 911 call center (Salmon).
MOO.

Does anyone know exactly how accurate this tech is in places without great cell reception/gps signal? I ask because last time I called 911 (in Indiana), it directed my call to the neighboring county about 7-8 miles away from where I was located. The dispatcher had to transfer my call to the correct county. My phone is GPS enabled and both counties have E911. I figured if it could tell my location, it could certainly buzz me in to the right county.

I don't think Vernal's call began after J's call, ..rather before her call. When listening to the unedited 911 call, I hear another operator talking to a Vernal, and it sounds to me as if that call is ending, rather than beginning. .

Also KIC reported that there were 3 911 calls, and the times as, 2:22, 2:26, and 2:28.
KIC also said that (at a different time) V's call was first, J's second, and GGPA, 3.
I don't have the links handy, but this information can be found in our threads in late Jan. & Feb.

We know that J.'s call was at 2:28. KIC's 911 info leaves me confused.

Sheriff B. has said that there are are copies of the 911 calls out there, however after the parents were named suspects, he said that they would no longer be released, as they could be possible evidence.

So was VK's call 6+ minutes or 2+ minutes? The first time I listened to the 911 call, I thought for sure the person in the background was telling VK that someone had already called in and the other dispatcher was getting information from them just from the limited amount you can hear. This was before it came out that J was the last person to call and I'm not sure why I originally had that thought. It seems if VK was the first to call, there wouldn't be any real need for J to talk to the dispatcher if VK had already given the required information.

I could see GGP calling first and realizing he didn't know any height/weight/birthday/whatever info and handing the phone over to VK or J, him saying "I'm going to have his mom/dad call you to give you that info", or one of the parents getting frustrated with him asking them questions and calling themselves.

I just don't understand why 3 people needed to call when someone had obviously already gotten through at 2:22 or why two people would have needed to talk to dispatch for the same reason.

 

[misty48]

Does anyone know exactly how accurate this tech is in places without great cell reception/gps signal? I ask because last time I called 911 (in Indiana), it directed my call to the neighboring county about 7-8 miles away from where I was located. The dispatcher had to transfer my call to the correct county. My phone is GPS enabled and both counties have E911. I figured if it could tell my location, it could certainly buzz me in to the right county.




So was VK's call 6+ minutes or 2+ minutes? The first time I listened to the 911 call, I thought for sure the person in the background was telling VK that someone had already called in and the other dispatcher was getting information from them just from the limited amount you can hear. This was before it came out that J was the last person to call and I'm not sure why I originally had that thought. It seems if VK was the first to call, there wouldn't be any real need for J to talk to the dispatcher if VK had already given the required information.

I could see GGP calling first and realizing he didn't know any height/weight/birthday/whatever info and handing the phone over to VK or J, him saying "I'm going to have his mom/dad call you to give you that info", or one of the parents getting frustrated with him asking them questions and calling themselves.

I just don't understand why 3 people needed to call when someone had obviously already gotten through at 2:22 or why two people would have needed to talk to dispatch for the same reason.

Here's an article from just last year about the GPS data failures in the 911 system.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/22/cellphone-911-lack-location-data/23570499/


I am of the same opinion as you regarding the calls, placing VK's call approx 2mins after J's call.

 

[koios]

Does anyone know exactly how accurate this tech is in places without great cell reception/gps signal? I ask because last time I called 911 (in Indiana), it directed my call to the neighboring county about 7-8 miles away from where I was located. The dispatcher had to transfer my call to the correct county. My phone is GPS enabled and both counties have E911. I figured if it could tell my location, it could certainly buzz me in to the right county.




So was VK's call 6+ minutes or 2+ minutes? The first time I listened to the 911 call, I thought for sure the person in the background was telling VK that someone had already called in and the other dispatcher was getting information from them just from the limited amount you can hear. This was before it came out that J was the last person to call and I'm not sure why I originally had that thought. It seems if VK was the first to call, there wouldn't be any real need for J to talk to the dispatcher if VK had already given the required information.

I could see GGP calling first and realizing he didn't know any height/weight/birthday/whatever info and handing the phone over to VK or J, him saying "I'm going to have his mom/dad call you to give you that info", or one of the parents getting frustrated with him asking them questions and calling themselves.

I just don't understand why 3 people needed to call when someone had obviously already gotten through at 2:22 or why two people would have needed to talk to dispatch for the same reason.

E 9-1-1 is implemented in two phases. In phase 1 the system provides "the location of the cell site or base station". In the more advanced phase 2 the system provides "the latitude and longitude of the caller". Maybe your network and area was on phase 1, and the mast or cell coverage area included parts of both counties.
https://www.fcc.gov/general/9-1-1-and-e9-1-1-services

 

[koios]

MOO V's call began after J's call began, but V's call probably ended before J's call ended?

 

[Hoosier952]

MOO V's call began after J's call began, but V's call probably ended before J's call ended?

But...
I'm 99% Klein said J called last. I cannot recall if LE has also confirmed that information.

 

[neesaki]

Bumping for little Deorr.

 

[The Apparition]

I find it hard to believe that LE/KI would base their professional theories solely on the absence of independent sightings of Deorr at the shop or gas station.
Four people on the trip have said he was there.
The tracker dogs first on the scene trailed to the reservoir.
There were clothing & personal effects pertaining to Deorr at the site.
The consistency in all 4 statements is that he was present at the commencement of the trip to the fishing hole in the afternoon. Whatever happened, it occurred after that point in time IMO.
If LE/KI had solid evidence placing the lad elsewhere at the time the journey to Timber Creek first started on the Thursday I think we would have heard about it by now.

Well I think you answered your hypothetical question yourself, LE/Klein would not base their theories solely upon the gas station man and a mini mart clerk. You neglect to account for how Issac hired a lawyer and suddenly became best buddies with Klein and LE. Have you ever considered that Issac told LE/Klein behind closed doors that he never saw Deorr? Who knows about the dogs, maybe the guilty parties dragged a pair of Deorr's worn pajamas around all over the campsite, while definitely not a smart bunch they at least seem like they would know how scent dogs work. The personal effects line must be a joke, right? If, and I do mean if, Deorr was deceased prior to the camping trip and this was planned don't you think one of these Mensa members would think to bring some of his stuff? I would not try to base my innocence arguments on the "fishing hole story" as almost everyone who reads this thread can tell you all about the changing stories of the suspects. Lastly, as I hope you know LE doesn't have solid evidence about Deorr's location prior to the trip, thus the conundrum. Absent hard physical evidence LE's job becomes very difficult and it seems these 2 (or 3) suspects have stumbled onto a great method for making a child disappear, for now of course!

 

[katydid23]

I feel like we are just spinning our wheels these days.:back:

 

[bluesneakers]

Well I think you answered your hypothetical question yourself, LE/Klein would not base their theories solely upon the gas station man and a mini mart clerk. You neglect to account for how Issac hired a lawyer and suddenly became best buddies with Klein and LE. Have you ever considered that Issac told LE/Klein behind closed doors that he never saw Deorr? Who knows about the dogs, maybe the guilty parties dragged a pair of Deorr's worn pajamas around all over the campsite, while definitely not a smart bunch they at least seem like they would know how scent dogs work. The personal effects line must be a joke, right? If, and I do mean if, Deorr was deceased prior to the camping trip and this was planned don't you think one of these Mensa members would think to bring some of his stuff? I would not try to base my innocence arguments on the "fishing hole story" as almost everyone who reads this thread can tell you all about the changing stories of the suspects. Lastly, as I hope you know LE doesn't have solid evidence about Deorr's location prior to the trip, thus the conundrum. Absent hard physical evidence LE's job becomes very difficult and it seems these 2 (or 3) suspects have stumbled onto a great method for making a child disappear, for now of course!

Mensa members.

You're killing me.

 

[misty48]

Well I think you answered your hypothetical question yourself, LE/Klein would not base their theories solely upon the gas station man and a mini mart clerk. You neglect to account for how Issac hired a lawyer and suddenly became best buddies with Klein and LE. Have you ever considered that Issac told LE/Klein behind closed doors that he never saw Deorr? Who knows about the dogs, maybe the guilty parties dragged a pair of Deorr's worn pajamas around all over the campsite, while definitely not a smart bunch they at least seem like they would know how scent dogs work. The personal effects line must be a joke, right? If, and I do mean if, Deorr was deceased prior to the camping trip and this was planned don't you think one of these Mensa members would think to bring some of his stuff? I would not try to base my innocence arguments on the "fishing hole story" as almost everyone who reads this thread can tell you all about the changing stories of the suspects. Lastly, as I hope you know LE doesn't have solid evidence about Deorr's location prior to the trip, thus the conundrum. Absent hard physical evidence LE's job becomes very difficult and it seems these 2 (or 3) suspects have stumbled onto a great method for making a child disappear, for now of course!

I think LE/Klein have actually based their theory that Deorr wasn't at the campground solely on the absence of independent witnesses verifying his presence in Leadore. Why would Klein cold-case it otherwise? LE were originally 99% sure he was at the camp site. Vilt was, too - he was originally convinced an abduction had occurred. Only the input of a PI team who hadn't even visited the location drastically altered that opinion.
Since when did IR become best buddies with LE/Klein? Neither IR nor his lawyer would co-operate with Klein originally. It was only the day after J & V had been declared suspects by LE that IR deemed it "safe" to give his first interview. If you truly believe that IR told LE/Klein behind closed doors that he never saw Deorr then what was his timeline interview aired on July 11th 2016 all about? Lying in public about Deorr to fool all the good folks?
Deorr was on the trip, no question about that imo. If anything untoward had been planned, J would not have kept trying to phone her mum in a panic. Furthermore, I don't believe IR or RW would have wanted to remain under the scrutiny of LE if they could have cleared themselves of any suspicion of complicity.

 

[The Apparition]

I think LE/Klein have actually based their theory that Deorr wasn't at the campground solely on the absence of independent witnesses verifying his presence in Leadore. Why would Klein cold-case it otherwise? LE were originally 99% sure he was at the camp site. Vilt was, too - he was originally convinced an abduction had occurred. Only the input of a PI team who hadn't even visited the location drastically altered that opinion.
Since when did IR become best buddies with LE/Klein? Neither IR nor his lawyer would co-operate with Klein originally. It was only the day after J & V had been declared suspects by LE that IR deemed it "safe" to give his first interview. If you truly believe that IR told LE/Klein behind closed doors that he never saw Deorr then what was his timeline interview aired on July 11th 2016 all about? Lying in public about Deorr to fool all the good folks?
Deorr was on the trip, no question about that imo. If anything untoward had been planned, J would not have kept trying to phone her mum in a panic. Furthermore, I don't believe IR or RW would have wanted to remain under the scrutiny of LE if they could have cleared themselves of any suspicion of complicity.

You are making assumptions and I'm sure you are familiar with what happens when you make assumptions? I believe no independent witness sightings is only a piece of the puzzle. I believe those silly LE people actually believed the parents for some period of time. How long who knows, as I believe it behooved them to play along with the parents while they were looking for further leads. It is safe to say they suspected them well before they made the official announcement, as you may recall the sheriff said he was naming them suspects because he felt bad for people donating to "their' scam fund.

Klein cold cased the investigation because he has no where else to go, it's as simple as that. Klein and Issac became buddies after Klein got to interview him and he gave his private statements to Klein and LE. Klein himself said Issac also told a couple of versions but seems satisfied with whatever his last version is. I'm not sure why Issac would tell different versions of events but it is low on my list because he seems like the only person who isn't involved in a serious crime.

Just because Jessica was calling her mom proves nothing to me. Maybe she wanted to go over her 911 script one more time before calling the law. Perhaps she was worried GGP was going to say something stupid like when is the funeral? Maybe she was calling mom so as to sync up the time perfectly, so mom had time to be there before the cops and help further muddy the situation. There are so many possibilities...

 

[koios]

But...
I'm 99% Klein said J called last. I cannot recall if LE has also confirmed that information.

Yes your opinion appears to be confirmed by the automated "14:28:04" timestamp on the recording of the mother's 911 call.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

 

[koios]

In this interview it is stated that the first 911 call was at 2:26pm
https://youtu.be/8vEx4Eiu_z4 (15:46)

 

[neesaki]

You are making assumptions and I'm sure you are familiar with what happens when you make assumptions? I believe no independent witness sightings is only a piece of the puzzle. I believe those silly LE people actually believed the parents for some period of time. How long who knows, as I believe it behooved them to play along with the parents while they were looking for further leads. It is safe to say they suspected them well before they made the official announcement, as you may recall the sheriff said he was naming them suspects because he felt bad for people donating to "their' scam fund.

Klein cold cased the investigation because he has no where else to go, it's as simple as that. Klein and Issac became buddies after Klein got to interview him and he gave his private statements to Klein and LE. Klein himself said Issac also told a couple of versions but seems satisfied with whatever his last version is. I'm not sure why Issac would tell different versions of events but it is low on my list because he seems like the only person who isn't involved in a serious crime.

Just because Jessica was calling her mom proves nothing to me. Maybe she wanted to go over her 911 script one more time before calling the law. Perhaps she was worried GGP was going to say something stupid like when is the funeral? Maybe she was calling mom so as to sync up the time perfectly, so mom had time to be there before the cops and help further muddy the situation. There are so many possibilities...

Thank you Apparition, you have a way of stating things, straight and to the point, and so precisely.

 

[amateur sleuth]

way to go Apparition!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think LE/Klein have actually based their theory that Deorr wasn't at the campground solely on the absence of independent witnesses verifying his presence in Leadore. Why would Klein cold-case it otherwise? LE were originally 99% sure he was at the camp site. Vilt was, too - he was originally convinced an abduction had occurred. Only the input of a PI team who hadn't even visited the location drastically altered that opinion.
Since when did IR become best buddies with LE/Klein? Neither IR nor his lawyer would co-operate with Klein originally. It was only the day after J & V had been declared suspects by LE that IR deemed it "safe" to give his first interview. If you truly believe that IR told LE/Klein behind closed doors that he never saw Deorr then what was his timeline interview aired on July 11th 2016 all about? Lying in public about Deorr to fool all the good folks?
Deorr was on the trip, no question about that imo. If anything untoward had been planned, J would not have kept trying to phone her mum in a panic. Furthermore, I don't believe IR or RW would have wanted to remain under the scrutiny of LE if they could have cleared themselves of any suspicion of complicity.

bbm

You may ask: On what trip exactly - on what day exactly - being well and alive - or being severely injured - or being dead since when ....???

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think LE/Klein have actually based their theory that Deorr wasn't at the campground solely on the absence of independent witnesses verifying his presence in Leadore. Why would Klein cold-case it otherwise? LE were originally 99% sure he was at the camp site. Vilt was, too - he was originally convinced an abduction had occurred. Only the input of a PI team who hadn't even visited the location drastically altered that opinion.
Since when did IR become best buddies with LE/Klein? Neither IR nor his lawyer would co-operate with Klein originally. It was only the day after J & V had been declared suspects by LE that IR deemed it "safe" to give his first interview. If you truly believe that IR told LE/Klein behind closed doors that he never saw Deorr then what was his timeline interview aired on July 11th 2016 all about? Lying in public about Deorr to fool all the good folks?
Deorr was on the trip, no question about that imo. If anything untoward had been planned, J would not have kept trying to phone her mum in a panic. Furthermore, I don't believe IR or RW would have wanted to remain under the scrutiny of LE if they could have cleared themselves of any suspicion of complicity.

bbm

Acting on "panic" or not: Why didn't know Jessica (it seems) that her mother usually wasn't available per cell phone during her working time???

 

[SubtleGrace]

bbm

Acting on "panic" or not: Why didn't know Jessica (it seems) that her mother usually wasn't available per cell phone during her working time???

I've commented about this before. Obviously Jessica knew her Mom couldn't take phone calls because she was texting her earlier that morning (about the personal items). Yet when Deorr supposedly goes missing, she suddenly forgets, and starts calling her repeatedly, yet DOESN'T SEND A TEXT that he is missing? Trina sent me a screen shot of all her messages from Jess that day. One in the morning, about 9:30ish saying she started her monthly and needed to go to town, one around 12:30 saying all was well and they were headed back to the campsite, then one very strange message at 2:26 stating "911", which is when she finally called 911. Why would she text her mom "911", if she had just spoken with her (according to Trina) and mom told her to call 911? Isn't that what Trina stated? She told Jess to call 911, then she did? If she did so immediately after talking to her mom, why did she need to text her "911"?

 

[turtlefur]

Maybe Trina called Jessica back to make sure she was calling and Jessica texted her "911" to show her she was on the phone with them?


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