ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

[Inthedetails]

Snipped by me

BBM.


I could understand (if they were not aware of IR's criminal record) if they have said ""he was going to be good with grandpa and friend by the campfire" but no mention of the friend at all during the interview. As a matter of fact, it makes the viewer deduce that during that very crucial moment of the toddler's disappearance it was only little DeOrr and great-grandpa alone. IR seems to disagree. Actually, it makes the viewer deduce that the only people during the trip were: Mom, dad, little DeOrr and great-grandpa. The omission is intriguing.

Further thought along the same line as I am catching up with posts this morning....

The dad specifically says about the store visit - we went there as a family.

Why would someone specifically say that unless there were non-family member also at the campsite? If it were only the parents, child, and g-grandpa, you wouldn't need to specify you went to the store "as a family" because everyone is family. It's apparent from dad's story that IR did not go to the store with the others.

I'm wondering if our friend IR wasn't around the campsite when the family returned. The parents went exploring, DeOrr and G-GP stayed at the campsite...and friend IR appeared back at the site later. When did he reappear??

Just a possibility to consider as we look at all possibilities.

 

[bluesneakers]

Snipped by me

Further thought along the same line as I am catching up with posts this morning....

The dad specifically says about the store visit - we went there as a family.

Why would someone specifically say that unless there were non-family member also at the campsite? If it were only the parents, child, and g-grandpa, you wouldn't need to specify you went to the store "as a family" because everyone is family. It's apparent from dad's story that IR did not go to the store with the others.

I'm wondering if our friend IR wasn't around the campsite when the family returned. The parents went exploring, DeOrr and G-GP stayed at the campsite...and friend IR appeared back at the site later. When did he reappear??

Just a possibility to consider as we look at all possibilities.

Interesting thought. Did he arrive when they did? Maybe they did take two cars - GGP rode with the parents and Deorr, and IR arrived later in his own car.

 

[steelman]

I've watched the interview with the parents about 8 or 10 times already. They seem steadfast that he was abducted from the campsite. The person in the background that keeps bringing up the EMT bag is largely forgotten about by the end of the interview. The topic is never discussed. I assume the parents must think it doesn't have any relevance, or not much anyway, although dad does state early on "We'll get to that in a minute". If the EMT bag had some sort of major significance, I would think they would've addressed right from the start.

As far as the abduction theory, it sounds way out there to me, but if it turns out to be factual, I would say the store clerks sighting at 6 p.m. that evening was the actual abductor himself with Deorr in tow.
Him driving a black truck was a sheer coincidence. That may be part of the investigation that they are looking further into. For instance, LE may be pulling all the surveillance camera footage they can find within 40-50 miles of that store in order to see if they can capture a black truck on camera driving through the area around the 6 p.m. sighting time.

As remote as the area is, I highly doubt there are a whole bunch of cameras set up between Leadore and the campsite, but they might get lucky. The more different roads and routes there are, the longer it will take them to round up all of the videos, if there are any. It's going to take time, obviously.

LE has been very quiet lately, but if that is the direction the case is going, you would think they would broadcast publicly that they are seeking out any video footage or game camera footage that might be available from that day, supplied by local residents and businesses along the different routes to the camping area.

Of course my initial reaction to this case was that Deorr wandered off and got lost. I'm still leaning that way, but I'll admit I'm perplexed by all the searching that has turned up nothing. I would normally roll my eyes and smirk a little bit when law enforcement claims to have conducted an "exhaustive search", because of all of the prior cases that were discussed in earlier threads in regards to that. This time however, I think they probably HAVE done an exhaustive search, and still came up empty.

How someone could manage to infiltrate a fairly flat campground in broad daylight, snatch up a child while two grown adults are standing a few feet away, without being seen coming or going , is beyond me.
Also, they stated they neither heard or saw any vehicles during this time frame. A moving vehicle creates a lot of dust on a dirt road, not to mention a lot of noise.

 

[wondering25]

Snipped by me

Further thought along the same line as I am catching up with posts this morning....

The dad specifically says about the store visit - we went there as a family.

Why would someone specifically say that unless there were non-family member also at the campsite? If it were only the parents, child, and g-grandpa, you wouldn't need to specify you went to the store "as a family" because everyone is family. It's apparent from dad's story that IR did not go to the store with the others.

I'm wondering if our friend IR wasn't around the campsite when the family returned. The parents went exploring, DeOrr and G-GP stayed at the campsite...and friend IR appeared back at the site later. When did he reappear??

Just a possibility to consider as we look at all possibilities.

he might say that because he wanted to discount the sighting of a man and a filthy crying little boy in the store at 6pm. It implies they went there together all 3 of them and in the store together too. On another note.. does anyone remember the abduction of John Walsh's son Adam? remember the suspect Ottis Toole.;. I have seen clips of him on TV.. i saw IR and thought about Ottis immediately.. same disaffected, below the radar.. not quite right, demeanor.. Low IQ? meds? i dunno.. but that "type". JMO.. Sadly, a lot of people might fit that "type". Even in Adam's case his body was found... If Deorr was kidnapped and sold, or worse, where is he? Could IR have been the man in the store with the filthy crying boy at 6pm? JMO and random ideas for debate..

 

[bluesneakers]

I agree there is a predator.. but it has 2 legs not 4. JMO

Someone at the campsite, or a stranger who stalked them, or a stranger who just happened along?

I'm still not sure someone could get to that campsite and grab Deorr without drawing some attention. Even if the person snuck up on him I think Deorr would scream or cry.

If there were an estranged parent in the picture I could see someone going to all that trouble to kidnap him though, and he might go along because it was his other dad or mom coming to get him.

 

[Inthedetails]

I've watched the interview with the parents about 8 or 10 times already. They seem steadfast that he was abducted from the campsite. The person in the background that keeps bringing up the EMT bag is largely forgotten about by the end of the interview. The topic is never discussed. I assume the parents must think it doesn't have any relevance, or not much anyway, although dad does state early on "We'll get to that in a minute". If the EMT bag had some sort of major significance, I would think they would've addressed right from the start.

As far as the abduction theory, it sounds way out there to me, but if it turns out to be factual, I would say the store clerks sighting at 6 p.m. that evening was the actual abductor himself with Deorr in tow.
Him driving a black truck was a sheer coincidence. That may be part of the investigation that they are looking further into. For instance, LE may be pulling all the surveillance camera footage they can find within 40-50 miles of that store in order to see if they can capture a black truck on camera driving through the area around the 6 p.m. sighting time.

As remote as the area is, I highly doubt there are a whole bunch of cameras set up between Leadore and the campsite, but they might get lucky. The more different roads and routes there are, the longer it will take them to round up all of the videos, if there are any. It's going to take time, obviously.

LE has been very quiet lately, but if that is the direction the case is going, you would think they would broadcast publicly that they are seeking out any video footage or game camera footage that might be available from that day, supplied by local residents and businesses along the different routes to the camping area.

Of course my initial reaction to this case was that Deorr wandered off and got lost. I'm still leaning that way, but I'll admit I'm perplexed by all the searching that has turned up nothing. I would normally roll my eyes and smirk a little bit when law enforcement claims to have conducted an "exhaustive search", because of all of the prior cases that were discussed in earlier threads in regards to that. This time however, I think they probably HAVE done an exhaustive search, and still came up empty.

How someone could manage to infiltrate a fairly flat campground in broad daylight, snatch up a child while two grown adults are standing a few feet away, without being seen coming or going , is beyond me.
Also, they stated they neither heard or saw any vehicles during this time frame. A moving vehicle creates a lot of dust on a dirt road, not to mention a lot of noise.

Unless the scenario was abduction and dispose.

And if the abductor were already onsite, there would be no car noises and dust.

I believe the dad's story that they were at the store and he bought DeOrr a candy bar. I think the clerk had the time wrong. I don't believe an abductor stopped at the store with DeOrr.

FWIW, I'm leaning toward accidental drowning or simply being lost forever in the underbrush, but I'm willing to consider the abductor story and see if we can make sense of it.

JMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

he might say that because he wanted to discount the sighting of a man and a filthy crying little boy in the store at 6pm. It implies they went there together all 3 of them and in the store together too. On another note.. does anyone remember the abduction of John Walsh's son Adam? remember the suspect Ottis Toole.;. I have seen clips of him on TV.. i saw IR and thought about Ottis immediately.. same disaffected, below the radar.. not quite right, demeanor.. Low IQ? meds? i dunno.. but that "type". JMO.. Sadly, a lot of people might fit that "type". Even in Adam's case his body was found... If Deorr was kidnapped and sold, or worse, where is he? Could IR have been the man in the store with the filthy crying boy at 6pm? JMO and random ideas for debate..

You think we should consider/discuss IR being the person who took Deorr? Why would he kidnap/sell his friend's grandson?

 

[SleuthMom]

Interesting thought. Did he arrive when they did? Maybe they did take two cars - GGP rode with the parents and Deorr, and IR arrived later in his own car.

Yes, they had more than one vehicle. A few questions I previously asked:

Did they all arrive at the same time to the campsite?

Who was driving each vehicle and who were the passengers on each car?

I wonder if IR (due to his criminal history) has a driver's license?

 

[bluesneakers]

Unless the scenario was abduction and dispose.

And if the abductor were already onsite, there would be no car noises and dust.

I believe the dad's story that they were at the store and he bought DeOrr a candy bar. I think the clerk had the time wrong. I don't believe an abductor stopped at the store with DeOrr.

FWIW, I'm leaning toward accidental drowning or simply being lost forever in the underbrush, but I'm willing to consider the abductor story and see if we can make sense of it.

JMO.

That's what I think too. Water or wilderness. Haven't there been cases when someone's remains or clothing were found years later? I hope Deorr's parents don't have to wait that long though.

 

[ILOKAL]

This has never looked good for poor lil DeOrr since the beginning.

With this being such a back country camping area, I couldn't imagine the extra work load of not only a toddler but an elderly man whom is not in great physical condition, no running water, no bathroom besides a walk down the path, was this elderly man going to be sleeping on the ground, even with an air mattress I wouldn't want my elderly mother sleeping in a tent. Thinking about all the supplies that you would need for such a camping trip, you could easily forget something that is needed like something for water filtration

I just don't understand why at least one of these oversized cowboy boots wasn't found, the only predator that would make sure that one boot wasn't left behind is a two legged predator.

Many wonder how the boots could disappear. I've posted and there remains a plethora of information on behavior of mountain lions and here's just one source that explains how, if taken by a mountain lion, Deorr could have been carried (since lions carry OR drag their kill) and why his boots could not be found. Their premolars, unlike other predators, shred hide and bones and bone fragments and hair from hides is often found in their digestive tracks.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/cougars.html

 

[bluesneakers]

Yes, they had more than one vehicle. A few questions I previously asked:

Did they all arrive at the same time to the campsite?

Who was driving each vehicle and who were the passenger on each car?

I wonder if IR (due to his criminal history) has a driver's license?

Were any of his arrests for DUI? I thought they were all from five years ago and related to assaults. That wouldn't keep a person from getting a driver's license.

 

[SleuthMom]

Could IR have been the man in the store with the filthy crying boy at 6pm? JMO and random ideas for debate..

I want to believe LE showed at least a picture of IR to the store clerk.

As I said before, IR has a criminal history yes but he also seems to have some sort of cognitive impairment and talks like a child. At least that's my impression. The way he answered to the reporter seems like he was afraid, particularly when he asked the journalist if he spoke to grandpa "yet" (interesting that this is the only part during the short exchange that he seems to become suddenly "aware"). He is almost afraid to say something that could implicate someone or could cause problems. As a matter of fact he uses the term "as far as I know" which is a phrase you would use within this context if you were not present when the toddler went missing.

 

[SleuthMom]

Were any of his arrests for DUI? I thought they were all from five years ago and related to assaults. That wouldn't keep a person from getting a driver's license.

Not sure but I will try to get some info.

 

[bluesneakers]

Many wonder how the boots could disappear. I've posted and there remains a plethora of information on behavior of mountain lions and here's just one source that explains how, if taken by a mountain lion, Deorr could have been carried (since lions carry OR drag their kill) and why his boots could not be found. Their premolars, unlike other predators, shred hide and bones and bone fragments and hair from hides is often found in their digestive tracks.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/cougars.html

His boots would have been small and if they were made of leather a cat could chew and digest it, I think. I know what puppies can do to shoes and I've seen cats eat fabric and string.

 

[ILOKAL]

His boots would have been small and if they were made of leather a cat could chew and digest it, I think. I know what puppies can do to shoes and I've seen cats eat fabric and string.

Absolutely! A mountain lion could and WOULD not only digest the clothing and boots, but given the small size of Deorr, there would be nothing left . The article also mentions their scat "if found" which leads me to believe this is not always the case (finding scat).

 

[SleuthMom]

Absolutely! A mountain lion could and WOULD not only digest the clothing and boots, but given the small size of Deorr, there would be nothing left . The article also mentions their scat "if found" which leads me to believe this is not always the case (finding scat).

Hi ILOKAL I see that your posts are mostly about this case scenario only. Do you have any other theories that it does not include a wild animal?

 

[bluesneakers]

Absolutely! A mountain lion could and WOULD not only digest the clothing and boots, but given the small size of Deorr, there would be nothing left . The article also mentions their scat "if found" which leads me to believe this is not always the case (finding scat).

Okay, I only know about cats*, but mine have always been very careful with their litter boxes and I assumed it was instinct to hide evidence of their presence. Maybe that's why scat isn't easy to find.

*Not a crazy cat lady, I swear. Not yet anyway.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Unless the scenario was abduction and dispose.

And if the abductor were already onsite, there would be no car noises and dust.

I believe the dad's story that they were at the store and he bought DeOrr a candy bar. I think the clerk had the time wrong. I don't believe an abductor stopped at the store with DeOrr.

FWIW, I'm leaning toward accidental drowning or simply being lost forever in the underbrush, but I'm willing to consider the abductor story and see if we can make sense of it.

JMO.

I don't believe an abductor would have taken the chance of being seen with him at a store or any place else for that matter. I do not think he was abducted or snatched by a mountain lion. Nor do I think he fell in the reservoir or creek.

 

[white rabbit]

agree, Jamaica (reminder I can't "thank" posts). 100%.

 

[bluesneakers]

I don't believe an abductor would have taken the chance of being seen with him at a store or any place else for that matter. I do not think he was abducted or snatched by a mountain lion. Nor do I think he fell in the reservoir or creek.

What's left?