ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #5

[ClaireNC]

So, no one from the search looked into that hypothetical bag to see what was inside and just left it there..since a diaper would have the baby's scent on it.. wouldnt that confuse the dogs and lead the dogs back to the campsite?

Maybe LE did look in the bag and cleared it for removal to the trash. We don't know.

 

[ILOKAL]

Here's a case with valuable information:

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79195777/

 

[desert-blue]

If you think only a longer period of time would be sufficient for a mountain lion to take Deorr then you haven't read the material that's been presented as well as the accounts of similar cases posted by myself and others. The material also answers various reasons for not locating his clothes or boots. You can do your own search for information or you can read what I have posted, but reading will certainly answer all your questions.

I guess I'm skeptical, but I'll take your word for it (until I have time to go back and re-read all the posts and links here on mountain lions). There isn't any other scenario that makes any more sense, given the information that has been released (outside of IR - he makes me a little uneasy, but I don't get the impression from any source that they think he did anything...). I wish they'd release more information as far as timelines and the activities of all persons of interest, but I guess that's not to be right now. It seems like the direction on this case is ever-changing...

 

[fishing_idaho]

I don't think they stopped at the store in Leadore Thursday night, but if they did, it would have taken them about 30 minutes to get to the campground. Here is the alternative route they may have taken without driving clear to Leadore that night. View attachment 79288

Nobody uses that route to go camp. To use it you have to ford the second largest tributary to the lemhi river (Big Timber Creek). Also that road is way worse then the main path up to the campground. Last time I was there, there was also a gate on the south side of the ford. It's not impossible to drive but it's definitely not a shortcut.

 

[bluesneakers]

Sometimes sources are not possible in MSM. There are times LE will drop a little nugget without having it directly attributed to them. Leaks happen and sometimes they are on purpose.

I would be willing to consider information from an insider who doesn't have any idea their honesty could contradict what is already out there. It depends on the claim and the possible reasons for there to be a discrepancy. If it appears to be an innocent slip and not a staged response, I think it is often easy to gauge.

If sources aren't possible then where are they getting the nuggets? Making them up? Drawing their own conclusions? If the information is from a source they should say so. Otherwise we're left with nothing more than a thinly veiled editorial.

eta: Obviously they don't have to reveal their sources.

 

[bluesneakers]

Rumor and innuendo do not make a case. IF they are building a criminal case, this is a complex investigation. I would assume more than one crime scene, less than stellar witnesses at the camp site, reconstructing timelines, collecting evidence... It takes time. Even if they started dual investigations as soon as the 911 call was placed, they have spent a lot of their resources (time/money/man hours) on the SAR angle. There could be several jurisdictions involved. There could be inconclusive polygraphs, which aren't admissible in court anyway. Alternative scenarios need to be researched and ruled out within any reasonable doubt.

I joined Websleuths because of a case in my hometown. It is now going on the third month and the investigation is no where near complete. LE has arrested one person, but insists they believe the crime could not have been committed by him alone. They are sharing virtually nothing with MSM and the public. For completely selfish reasons, I wish I hadn't stumbled onto DeOrr's story and become so invested. Are there any Websleuths cases that are solved relatively quickly and completely? I want one of those.

Me too. And I want it to have a happy ending.

 

[ClaireNC]

Nobody uses that route to go camp. To use it you have to ford the second largest tributary to the lemhi river (Big Timber Creek). Also that road is way worse then the main path up to the campground. Last time I was there, there was also a gate on the south side of the ford. It's not impossible to drive but it's definitely not a shortcut.

Fishing_Idaho, Welcome! Thanks for joining the discussion. We can certainly use some local perspective. So, they would have driven up to Leadore before traveling back south to the campground? Is that really the only way in?

What else can you tell us about the area? Have you been to this exact campground before?

PS: I don't think the sighting by the woman at the store was Thursday night, but it is still a good piece of information.

 

[rkf]

It just feels like were all going in circles, and trying so hard to find him, and make very good suggestions and points.... I want him found safe so BAD! I have a child myself, hes 13, but was the age 2 once, and I can remember how scared he would be if I was out of sight. I just cant think about him being alone, hurt, hungry. etc... I wished I could hold him, love him, and tell him everything will be okay... I will find where I read that ab the FBI ruling out the family and animals, and abduction... I do believe there is more thats not being shared, and its making my mind go wild!

ITA. I hope LE isn't chasing their tails like we are. I don't think they are...

 

[rkf]

Has it been confirmed that the GGF has dementia or is somehow lacking mentally? I recall reading in MSM that he has "health issues", but have those health issues been confirmed as a mental incompetency of some sort?

Sometimes when various possible scenarios get discussed so much, speculation morphs into a "for sure" thing. I was starting to believe GGF had dementia myself, but when I stopped to really think about it, I realized I had only read that as speculation in comments here and elsewhere. I don't think I have seen anything truly confirming it.

IIRC, the sheriff said he had been ruled out as a suspect because of mental infirmities. I'm paraphrasing and I could also be wrong. Sometime after that I read that no one at the campsite had been ruled out, including poor ggp.

 

[ClaireNC]

Post Register - Aug. 2nd

http://www.postregister.com/articles/featured-news-daily-email/2015/08/01/lemhi-sheriff%E2%80%99s-seeks-fbi%E2%80%99s-help-search-toddler
[/B]

Todd Palmer, spokesman for the FBI office in Salt Lake City, said services made available to state and municipal law enforcement departments that request aid include behavioral analyses and testing of any physical evidence gathered in investigations.

Thanks Dee10! BBM, So the FBI might be doing behavioral analyses and testing of physical evidence. Does the article say anything else about that? It is subscription only, so I can't see the full article.

 

[bessie]

BBM
You bring up a good point. I understand why people ask for links so that gossip, preconceived personal opinions, etc. do not become "facts" and grow legs. The mods insist on links constantly. Personally I get nervous when someone asks me for a link, not because I'm making something up, but I worry that I won't be able to put my hands on the article, or the article has been edited, or my computer decides it is time to throw me offline (happens numerous times). Thankfully I have been able to verify what I stated or a kind poster comes along and posts whatever is being asked for.

My question is do we have to provide a link for information that has been put here on this forum numerous times? Do we have to go find it every time someone asks or can we just direct people to look themselves? (not being snarky - I really want to know because the "link please" always sends me into a :scared: )

Once information has been linked "numerous times", it's not necessary to provide a link in each subsequent post. That said, what equates to "numerous", and at which point information becomes general knowledge, isn't precise. One should always be prepared to back up a statement if challenged in a reasonable manner. But it shouldn't send you into a frenzy. A quick google search of a few key words should supply results.

 

[bluesneakers]

Lol thanks NN! I always feel like I did when the boss would ask if the report was done yet....that deer in the headlights feeling.

Aaahhh, now, are you going to go ahead and have those TPS reports for us this afternoon?

 

[desert-blue]

Nobody uses that route to go camp. To use it you have to ford the second largest tributary to the lemhi river (Big Timber Creek). Also that road is way worse then the main path up to the campground. Last time I was there, there was also a gate on the south side of the ford. It's not impossible to drive but it's definitely not a shortcut.

That's interesting - google maps says to go that way to get to Timber Creek Campground if you're coming from the south (Idaho Falls). I can see where it crosses Big Timber Creek, though, and there does not appear to be a bridge, so I guess that is why you shouldn't always rely on online directions, especially off the beaten path.... It would make sense that they went through Leadore because isn't that how JM gives the directions to the 911 operator? She says that you turn left at Leadore, IIRC. She doesn't say to turn left before you get to Leadore (assuming you're coming from the south). So, I think it makes sense that they went through Leadore to get to the campground. I wonder if the store was closed when they went through, if it was Thursday night, and that is why they had to go the next day?

 

[ClaireNC]

IIRC, the sheriff said he had been ruled out as a suspect because of mental infirmities. I'm paraphrasing and I could also be wrong. Sometime after that I read that no one at the campsite had been ruled out, including poor ggp.

It's in this article: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/

The great-grandfather, who authorities have not identified, also has not been labeled as a suspect. Authorities said his declining physical and mental health ruled him out at the beginning of the case.

 

[verbonica]

Rumor and innuendo do not make a case. IF they are building a criminal case, this is a complex investigation. I would assume more than one crime scene, less than stellar witnesses at the camp site, reconstructing timelines, collecting evidence... It takes time. Even if they started dual investigations as soon as the 911 call was placed, they have spent a lot of their resources (time/money/man hours) on the SAR angle. There could be several jurisdictions involved. There could be inconclusive polygraphs, which aren't admissible in court anyway. Alternative scenarios need to be researched and ruled out within any reasonable doubt.

I joined Websleuths because of a case in my hometown. It is now going on the third month and the investigation is no where near complete. LE has arrested one person, but insists they believe the crime could not have been committed by him alone. They are sharing virtually nothing with MSM and the public. For completely selfish reasons, I wish I hadn't stumbled onto DeOrr's story and become so invested. Are there any Websleuths cases that are solved relatively quickly and completely? I want one of those.

bbm

The tragic case of Maddy Middleton just last week was solved within around 24 hrs... and the perp was arrested:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...on-8-Santa-Cruz-26-July-2015-3-*ARREST*/page4

Folks are still discussing it here, though, trying to figure out the WHY for the crime.

 

[bluesneakers]

This has been the parental reaction in similar cases as well. The parents "hope" that the child being abducted by a human advances the possibility that the child is still alive. The other possibilities don't.

It seems I've seen this before too. Isn't Ember's mom still saying she was abducted?

 

[ClaireNC]

That's interesting - google maps says to go that way to get to Timber Creek Campground if you're coming from the south (Idaho Falls). I can see where it crosses Timber Creek, though, and there does not appear to be a bridge, so I guess that is why you shouldn't always rely on online directions, especially off the beaten path.... It would make sense that they went through Leadore because isn't that how JM gives the directions to the 911 operator? She says that you turn left at Leadore, IIRC. She doesn't say to turn left before you get to Leadore (assuming you're coming from the south). So, I think it makes sense that they went through Leadore to get to the campground. I wonder if the store was closed when they went through, if it was Thursday night, and that is whey they had to go the next day? I

Great point to remember - do not blindly follow Google Maps or your GPS without checking. We once followed a map when leaving Bruneau Dunes in Idaho and ended up on a dirt road in the desert with nothing around. We were lost for about 3 or 4 hours. Suddenly see these big signs along the "road" that said something like "Bomb Testing Area..Look Right for Low Flying Airplanes." This continued on for several miles. It was frightening to say the least.

As for why they went to the store on that Friday, most likely they realized they forgot something or ended up needing something, like feminine protection products, that they didn't think they were going to need. I've had that happen when camping too.

 

[Dee10]

Thanks Dee10! BBM, So the FBI might be doing behavioral analyses and testing of physical evidence. Does the article say anything else about that? It is subscription only, so I can't see the full article.

Sorry, that was all that was said. This is interesting though "This is unlike any incident I've been involved with," said Bowerman, whose law enforcement career has spanned four decades."

 

[rkf]

Nope. I've been sleuthing for years. Respectfully, I'm not going to spend hours going back over old newspaper articles to prove to you what I know. Either you believe me or you don't. People who have known me on here for awhile know I can always back up what I say and I don't lie.

I was not implying you were lying. I like to learn and to do that I need to read reliable original sources. I thought you might have some handy that you have already vetted. If I share my new knowledge with someone else, if s/he asks me how I know, I can't very well say "Gitana from Websleuths said it."

One of the amazing things about this site is that people from all walks of life are willing to share their knowledge. It helps to learn from others' experiences rather than having to spend 15 years of hit or miss reading or an entire career acquiring a bit of knowledge. A great example is onebest sharing his/her experience with SAR and search dogs in particular - really fascinating first hand experience and knowledge!

I believe TOS are that we are supposed to post a link if we state something as fact (even though sometimes the links turn out not to be accurate). I will assume going forward , since I'm new and don't know you, that when you state something without a link, it is just your opinion based on years of sleuthing. Maybe someone else on this thread has easy access to some of the examples you've used to back up this assertion in the past? If so, thank you in advance for your generosity, WSers!

 

[rkf]

I don't get this it was posted from her(JM) mother's own account how can that be anybody else's posts, its only here we can't hold it with any value but any other situation you would accept it no.

Yes, I would accept it anywhere else. Trying to walk that thin TOS line. I think it's highly unlikely someone else hijacked the grandmother's FB account. However, and I hope I don't get snipped, since I'm generally suspicious in this case and we don't know much about JM's relationship with her mother, I'm not 100% sure how much we can rely on the mother's statements. She could be mad that JM and DK are throwing her father under the bus. She could be mad that they took her grandchild somewhere with IR. she could be mad at her daughter for "losing" her grandchildren... This is pure speculation with nothing to back it up, but it's why I am not able to trust what was said on FB is true and accurate. JMO.