ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #5

[Jules71]

The Sheriff should have called in the FBI at the beginning of this case. There is no excuse for his failure to call upon a resource that is readily available. It was utterly ridiculous that his office instead focused on what was being said on social media.

JMO

FBI Jurisdiction in Child Kidnappings

In the public eye—and even in some state and local law enforcement circles—there are common misconceptions about when the FBI can get involved in child kidnappings. That there has to be evidence a victim has been taken across state lines. Or that a ransom demand has to be made. Or that 24 hours must pass.

All are false.

Whether the case ends up being investigated and prosecuted at the local level or at the federal level, the Bureau will always leverage our investigative resources and technical assets to work hand in hand with state and local law enforcement agencies on cases involving the mysterious disappearance of a child. Our role is to help investigate the disappearance, recover the child, and apprehend the person or persons responsible.

And that role begins as soon as we’re notified.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...ild-abductions/investigating-child-abductions

I agree. 3 weeks later is crazy imo!

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[TeaTime]

Jamaica - thank you for the transcript of the parents interview. It visually depicts how much dad talked and how poor momma was shut out but I picked up nothing suspicious.

 

[IDTater]

The Sheriff seems more worried about being proved wrong than about finding the missing child. Apparently the grandfather was in good enough physical and mental condition to go to a rustic, primitive camp site but the sheriff has decided he is too frail to be interrogated. That's ridiculous.

JMO

And then today's article had this:

Bowerman said everyone at the campsite is considered a person of interest in the case, however, none of them are suspects -- this includes the parents, the child's great-grandfather and family friend Isaac Reinwand.

BBM

Sorry, gramps, you've been upgraded to POI...

 

[gitana1]

How can you be convinced it was not an abduction but not be able to rule it out?

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Quite easy. You cannot prove a negative. But he knows, from years of experience and all the evidence, or lack thereof, that an abduction is totally implausible. Knowing something though and being able to prove it absolutely are two different things.

You know, no one involved in the law requires absolute proof of anything in order to use their logic and come to a conclusion as to what happened or did not in a given scenario.

So, he may not be able to prove the negative absolutely, thus he cannot rule it out. But that is a different thing from being certain about a thing.

It is perfectly rational to me.

 

[Jules71]

Quite easy. You cannot prove a negative. But he knows, from years of experience and all the evidence, or lack thereof, that an abduction is totally implausible. Knowing something though and being able to prove it absolutely are two different things.

You know, no one involved in the law requires absolute proof of anything in order to use their logic and come to a conclusion as to what happened or did not in a given scenario.

So, he may not be able to prove the negative absolutely, thus he cannot rule it out. But that is a different thing from being certain about a thing.

It is perfectly rational to me.

Thank you - great explanation. So then in order to totally rule out abduction, something else would have to be proven.

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[katydid23]

What are those red flags? TIA

Not allowed to say all of them but there are inconsistencies in his criminal records. And his drug history, And there is his demeanor in the interview. And his statement, when asked about the baby= " He disappeared As Far As I Know" <<not a very convincing testimonial

 

[gitana1]

The Sheriff should have called in the FBI at the beginning of this case. There is no excuse for his failure to call upon a resource that is readily available. It was utterly ridiculous that his office instead focused on what was being said on social media.

JMO

FBI Jurisdiction in Child Kidnappings

In the public eye&#8212;and even in some state and local law enforcement circles&#8212;there are common misconceptions about when the FBI can get involved in child kidnappings. That there has to be evidence a victim has been taken across state lines. Or that a ransom demand has to be made. Or that 24 hours must pass.

All are false.

Whether the case ends up being investigated and prosecuted at the local level or at the federal level, the Bureau will always leverage our investigative resources and technical assets to work hand in hand with state and local law enforcement agencies on cases involving the mysterious disappearance of a child. Our role is to help investigate the disappearance, recover the child, and apprehend the person or persons responsible.

And that role begins as soon as we&#8217;re notified.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...ild-abductions/investigating-child-abductions

It is federal law that local LE immediately notify the FBI of all missing kid cases:

http://www.missingkids.com/KeyFacts

Also, you are citing what the FBI does in cases of abductions. There is no evidence of an abduction in this case.

The articles posted simply state that it is only now that the FBI is getting involved not that they were just contacted, right? The FBI has jurisdiction to get involved in any mysterious disappearance of a small child per the federal Lindbergh law, but it makes the decision as to whether they are going to get involved and when. Local LE does not make that decision, although they can ask for help.

 

[gitana1]

Thank you - great explanation. So then in order to totally rule out abduction, something else would have to be proven.

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Right, Like his body is found in the forest with no signs of foul play. Just animal predation or death from exposure. Something like that.

 

[gitana1]

I'm so happy that the FBI are going to get involved

Let the questioning begin

What makes you think there has been no questioning? I'm surprised to see how many people feel that four, separate LE agencies involved in this case, as well as the NCMEC, and various professional search and rescue professionals, are all just totally inept and haven't been thorough.

 

[nervous_nellie]

Which is the only reason I think it might actually be a "clue". In fact, anything that is called a "rumor" is suspect to me at this point, if only because the only "rumors" I've heard them mention is that DK's boss wasn't supportive and a store clerk reported seeing a little boy who looked like DeOrr hours after he disappeared. Those are the only two "rumors" DK saw fit to address. But he had plenty of time to talk about helicopters with infrared scopes and how amazing the searchers were who didn't find his child. (I am not criticizing the searchers, who by all accounts have been amazing. It's just very unusual for a parent to spend so much time praising SAR when their child is still missing. A few days would not usually be enough time to come to grips with the likelihood that your child is already dead, process your grief and move to the stage of thanking everyone for their efforts on your child's behalf. JMO)

I agree and my thoughts about the Employer Rumor are: This happened on a weekend didn't it? by the time that interview was done he couldn't have missed only a couple of days (MAX) of work. I don't see how a rumor could have gotten started that fast. jmho So, that leaves the Rumor/CLUE of the filthy child and man being seen by the clerk at 18:00...I don't understand why they discount this if they truly believe that he was abducted.

 

[gitana1]

I would lawyer up either way.

Not me. I'd want to find my kid or great grand child. I would do anything and everything to assist LE in any way and lawyering up shuts that down immediately. And this is an attorney making that statement!!!

 

[jashrema]

Finally...Deputy <modsnip> has invited the feds in. They should have been called at the 24 hour mark and if I was the parent I would have put SO much pressure on that dept and in the media that they would have had no CHOICE but to call them in. Their silence speaks volumes to me.

As far as

Originally Posted by TeaTime View Post
Just an FYI. When people are considered 'Suspects' they have to be Mirandized and then they usually lawyer up. When they are "Persons of Interest" they do not have to be Mirandized. POI applies to anyone who has information as to where everyone was and what happened before the child disappeared, those with the child when he was last seen, those considered to be the last people known to have seen the child. LE needs voluntary cooperation and unlimited access to all 4 adults at this time.

You can be ARRESTED and not be mirandized. The police can arrest you, throw you in a room and let you sit there and you are not allowed to leave because you have been arrested. IF the police decide to then INTERROGATE you , you have to be MIRANDIZED. It's all about whether or not you are being interrogated or "interviewed nicely". Many police do a soft interrogation to find facts and make people believe they are not "suspects". Mirandizing has nothing to do with whether you're a person of interest or a suspect. They can mirandize you at any time but then anything you SAY can and will be held against you, or so says my exhusb. undercover vice/narcotics for 30 years.

 

[gitana1]

I agree and my thoughts about the Employer Rumor are: This happened on a weekend didn't it? by the time that interview was done he couldn't have missed only a couple of days (MAX) of work. I don't see how a rumor could have gotten started that fast. jmho So, that leaves the Rumor/CLUE of the filthy child and man being seen by the clerk at 18:00...I don't understand why they discount this if they truly believe that he was abducted.

First, I don't think they truly believe he was abducted. But telling themselves that is more hopeful than believing his little body is rotting in the forest. Second, they seem certain that the sighting was of themselves with Deorr. But just that the time was off. Because they know they were there, they know what their truck looks like and they know what Deorr looked like and what his demeanor was when they went in the store. It appears that all matches with the sighting?

BTW, do we know if this little store has surveillance cameras? Wouldn't that clear things up quickly?

 

[jashrema]

That's why it is so hard not to sleuth these POI's. Because it's all semantics. They are not only POI but they are suspects in every aspect of the word because they were THERE WHEN HE DISAPPEARED. That's a no-brainer. He's just not using the WORD because of threats of litigation or fear of litigation.

 

[katydid23]

First, I don't think they truly believe he was abducted. But telling themselves that is more hopeful than believing his little body is rotting in the forest. Second, they seem certain that the sighting was of themselves with Deorr. But just that the time was off. Because they know they were there, they know what their truck looks like and they know what Deorr looked like and what his demeanor was when they went in the store. It appears that all matches with the sighting?

BTW, do we know if this little store has surveillance cameras? Wouldn't that clear things up quickly?

There was a statement posted by SleuthMom, I believe, that the store did not have any cameras. It is way upthread somewhere though. She had contacted them to ask.

 

[gitana1]

Finally...Deputy <modsnip>has invited the feds in. They should have been called at the 24 hour mark and if I was the parent I would have put SO much pressure on that dept and in the media that they would have had no CHOICE but to call them in. Their silence speaks volumes to me.

As far as

You can be ARRESTED and not be mirandized. The police can arrest you, throw you in a room and let you sit there and you are not allowed to leave because you have been arrested. IF the police decide to then INTERROGATE you , you have to be MIRANDIZED. It's all about whether or not you are being interrogated or "interviewed nicely". Many police do a soft interrogation to find facts and make people believe they are not "suspects". Mirandizing has nothing to do with whether you're a person of interest or a suspect. They can mirandize you at any time but then anything you SAY can and will be held against you, or so says my exhusb. undercover vice/narcotics for 30 years.

Could you show me where it has been reported that the sheriff just invited the FBI in? Also, has it been reported that they never notified the FBI per federal law, of this case until now? Because I haven't seen that.

Finally, LE take these missing kid cases very seriously and very personally and these are the cases they shed blood, sweat and tears over. The cases that haunt them. These detectives, these sheriffs have gone without showers, sleep, food and seeing their families, for hours and hours at a time, to solve this case. There is zero evidence of corruption or ineptitude here. Why are so many so vitriolic about the agencies involved in trying to find Deorr?

<modsnip>

 

[gitana1]

There was a statement posted by SleuthMom, I believe, that the store did not have any cameras. It is way upthread somewhere though. She had contacted them to ask.

That's a shame.

 

[gitana1]

That's why it is so hard not to sleuth these POI's. Because it's all semantics. They are not only POI but they are suspects in every aspect of the word because they were THERE WHEN HE DISAPPEARED. That's a no-brainer. He's just not using the WORD because of threats of litigation or fear of litigation.

I'm sorry. That's simply not true. A person becomes a suspect when they are suspected by LE of committing a crime. Just being present when something bad happened does not make one a suspect. Other circumstances do. If there is no evidence of foul play, then there are no suspects.

 

[MyBelle]

It is federal law that local LE immediately notify the FBI of all missing kid cases:

http://www.missingkids.com/KeyFacts

Also, you are citing what the FBI does in cases of abductions. There is no evidence of an abduction in this case.

The articles posted simply state that it is only now that the FBI is getting involved not that they were just contacted, right? The FBI has jurisdiction to get involved in any mysterious disappearance of a small child per the federal Lindbergh law, but it makes the decision as to whether they are going to get involved and when. Local LE does not make that decision, although they can ask for help.

The link I posted upthread states that the FBI has to be invited and the father has said from the beginning that he believes his son was abducted.

JMO

 

[Jules71]

I agree and my thoughts about the Employer Rumor are: This happened on a weekend didn't it? by the time that interview was done he couldn't have missed only a couple of days (MAX) of work. I don't see how a rumor could have gotten started that fast. jmho So, that leaves the Rumor/CLUE of the filthy child and man being seen by the clerk at 18:00...I don't understand why they discount this if they truly believe that he was abducted.

Maybe he works weekends and had not received time off for camping/searching?? Was this a spur of the moment or planned trip?

I don't really understand either how in 72 hours, rumors about his employer would have started. Unless he was talking about it - like man I'm supposed to go to work on such and such day I hope I don't get in trouble/fired for staying here to search for my lost son even though we think he was abducted. ??

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