ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #8

[gliving]

Lemhi County Sheriff's Office
July 20 at 9:10am ·
Press Release 7/20/15
Ref: DeOrr Kunz
The Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office is officially scaling back an intensive and exhaustive search of the Timber Creek/Stone Reservoir, area, southwest of Leadore, for the missing 2 yr old boy, DeOrr Kunz. After 10 days of searching, diving, and scouring the hillsides, the Sheriff’s Office has decided to redirect the investigation. The primary searchers included multiple agencies such as, Salmon Search & Rescue, The Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office, The Bonneville County Sheriff’s Office & Bonneville County Search & Rescue, Salmon PD, Idaho Fish & Game, multiple canine handlers, divers, and the public, especially the community of Leadore. The family of DeOrr has continued to cooperate with law enforcement and has volunteered to take polygraphs, which is common in these types of investigations. The parents are not considered suspects and this is a routine procedure. The Sheriff’s Office will keep a presence in the Timber Creek area, continuing to search for clues, and has not ruled out abduction by strangers or wild animals. Numerous resources, including helicopters with FLIR, diver’s, side scan sonar, scent dogs, cadaver dogs, horses, atv’s, and over 300 people, were used to grid and search the reservoir, the creek, and the hillsides, with absolutely no sign of the victim. We are asking the public to continue to report any information to the Idaho Fusion Center at 208 846-7676, or to the Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office at 208 756-8980.
Sheriff Lynn D. Bowerman/Chief Deputy Steve Penner

https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice/posts/884467051627459

 

[lauriej]

Did IR or the interviewer say that IR was fishing in the creek or just standing by the creek? If he was fishing I really find that odd. I doubt any grown man I know would try to fish in a 3 ft. wide creek.
I would assume that they would head over to the reservoir to fish. I have alot of fishermen in my family and not one would put his line in that tiny creek. Now I can see a little boy maybe play fishing in it but not a grown man trying to catch some fish. Maybe its just me , I just find that odd.

--I missed a bit in the last thread..

--can someone tell me, point me in the direction of----where we heard about IR fishing ..

 

[Jules71]

Copying this over from last thread in case people haven't heard this interview.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11999613

I don't know if this has already been posted. The reporter from East Idaho News did an interview with 580 KIDO radio on Wednesday. I don't have time to listen to it, so I don't know if there is anything new or any clarifications in it. Here is the radio station website: http://580kido.com/ and here is the recording of the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB1jNvgY-uk&feature=youtu.be

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[rkf]

Did IR or the interviewer say that IR was fishing in the creek or just standing by the creek? If he was fishing I really find that odd. I doubt any grown man I know would try to fish in a 3 ft. wide creek.
I would assume that they would head over to the reservoir to fish. I have alot of fishermen in my family and not one would put his line in that tiny creek. Now I can see a little boy maybe play fishing in it but not a grown man trying to catch some fish. Maybe its just me , I just find that odd.

IR said he was with DeOrr and ggp when DeOrr disappeared.

NE: "So he was just with you and the grandfather when he wandered away?"
IR: "Um hmm."
NE: "And then you guys thought he was with the parents."
IR: "Yeah."
NE: "The parents came back and he was gone?"
IR: Pause. "Um hmm."
NE: "Okay."

[video=youtube;01DB2lqpWcs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01DB2lqpWcs[/video]

 

[rkf]

The Lemhi Sheriff FB page's alert for a missing child:

July 16 at 8:11am ·
Update on missing 2 year old. We are currently at the location of the missing two year old and have never suspended our search. We are again diving the reservoir looking for any sign of DeOrr. We have representatives from the National Association of Missing and Exploited Children, assisting our organization. We are asking the public at this point, to "not" come to the scene as it will hamper our investigation. If anyone has information please call the Idaho Fusion Center in Meridian at 208 846-7676, as they are categorizing our tips for us, and assisting us in our investigation. We are still looking for a missing child and that is the focus of our investigation. All speculation at this time is not positive to our investigation, however, we will continue to look and will direct our investigation to include all possibilities, at a later time. Thanks to everyone for their concerns and prayers. We too, want to find DeOrr, and will do everything possible to bring this investigation to a conclusion........Sheriff Bowerman, Salmon Search & Rescue, Salmon Police, and the multitude of assisting agencies.....

https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice/posts/882334271840737

Why does the sheriff care if people are speculating? I understand it's not "nice" but how does it affect the investigation? I wish we knew people on the ground so we could find out what people were speculating about early on. (Yes, I know it's rumor, but the rumors must have been egregious and far reaching for LE to keep addressing them in every statement and interview. Why aren't these grown people IGNORING the idle gossip and negative chatter? The focus on "hearsay" is disturbing, as it should not be the main topic of a missing child investigation. JMO.

ETA: http://www.klewtv.com/news/local/missing-toddler-316054031.html

 

[rkf]

Originally Posted by kammiemc




--Deorr Sr doesn't specify as to whether the fire was lit or not.

[video=youtube;mwM1oG3z358]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358[/video]

UNEDITED INTERVIEW: Parents of Missing Idaho Toddler Speak Out

--8:59


Deorr Sr: Yeah, we decided we was going to do a little exploring, he was gonna be good with Grandpa, by the campfire..

Who knows what he meant, but I don't think too many people would hear "by the campfire" and think an unlit campfire, which is a pile of sticks? If he'd said by the "fire pit" I think that could have more than one interpretation. I will look for the quote where he said "by the fire" (unless I remembered it wrong) and add it here.

ETA: I think I "misremembered". I heard campfire and thought fire... I can't find a reference to DeOrr would be fine by the fire.

 

[Elena]

Why does the sheriff care if people are speculating? I understand it's not "nice" but how does it affect the investigation? I wish we knew people on the ground so we could find out what people were speculating about early on. (Yes, I know it's rumor, but the rumors must have been egregious and far reaching for LE to keep addressing them in every statement and interview. Why aren't these grown people IGNORING the idle gossip and negative chatter? The focus on "hearsay" is disturbing, as it should not be the main topic of a missing child investigation. JMO.

ETA: http://www.klewtv.com/news/local/missing-toddler-316054031.html

Ikr, it seems like they care more about the 'rumor' 'hearsay', more than finding DeOrr. Or probably that's a sign that some party knows DeOrr was never abducted, so maintaining a good image is more important so everyone look the other way.

 

[BeeFriendly]

Hundreds of tips have poured in from all over the globe suggesting the child has been seen as far away as Hong Kong, but Bowerman said he is ruling out a kidnapping.

"There is no evidence suggesting DeOrr was abducted," the sheriff said.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Q52OP20150731?irpc=932

I know this was posted before but this is the first time I noticed the ruling out part.

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I remember that article explicitly when it came out. That was the Reuters one. Immediately after I read that...this one came out, posted the same day 7/31/15, saying he couldn't rule it out.
http://www.localnews8.com/news/sheriff-says-hes-convinced-deorr-kunz-was-not-abducted/34472108
The media is so wishy washy...words are subject to change slightly all the time. I remember following the Germain Wings incident. I read everything on that one and, depending on who was doing the writing, details changed daily. It got so bad I started taking screen shots because the same article I had read one day would change overnight by adding or omitting details that weren't there the day before. Since day one, I felt this has been shoddy journalism in Deorr's case.

 

[Jules71]

That's even crazier. So a local woman, who can't help but have heard there is a massive search for a two year-old boy around the reservoir chooses that time to dump cremains there, in the middle of the search area?! She either doesn't look into rules and regulations surrounding dispersing human remains, or she ignores them? While 200 people, dogs and search equipment crawl over the surrounding land and water? Truly unbelievable.

Right? Crazy. During the search.

What was everyone's first thoughts when you heard this? I immediately thought it was to throw off the investigation - but then I'm suspicious like that.

The only way it would be somewhat explainable is if she was camping in the upper campground which is on the other side of the reservoir and hadn't left that area and the search and searchers were more around the creek and campground and were not yet visible from the reservoir.

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[katydid23]

I have been looking up statistics on missing children. I found this website and thought it interesting.

Estimates by Type of Episode
Table 3 reports the reasons children became missing. Data
are shown for all caretaker missing children and for those
who were reported missing.
Of all caretaker missing children, nearly one-half (48 percent)
were missing because of a runaway/thrownaway
episode. More than one-fourth (28 percent) became missing
as a result of benign explanation circumstances (miscommunications
or misunderstandings between child
and caretaker). Children who were missing because they
became lost or injured accounted for 15 percent of all
caretaker missing children. Less than one-tenth (9 percent)
of caretaker missing children were abducted by
family members, and only 3 percent were abducted by
nonfamily perpetrators.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/missingkids/statistics.html

I found the above statistic under this topic.


National Estimates of Missing Children: An Overview
Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, October 2002

BBM

It seems like this is kind of what happened. Miscommunication between caretakers.

 

[lauriej]

--came across this pic of Deorr in his camo jacket.

--adorable child.

 

[desert-blue]

I disagree...his eye color is H U G E.

I think so too. If there is any chance, no matter how small, that he was abducted, then it is crucial that the information be accurate. I'm not sure what to think about the fact that it still isn't accurate a month after he went missing - is it NCMEC incompetency (sounds like that is certainly possible!) or is it that the parents don't truly think he was abducted and so it is of little concern whether it is right or wrong???

 

[rkf]

Lemhi County Sheriff's Office
July 20 at 9:10am ·
Press Release 7/20/15
Ref: DeOrr Kunz
The Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office is officially scaling back an intensive and exhaustive search of the Timber Creek/Stone Reservoir, area, southwest of Leadore, for the missing 2 yr old boy, DeOrr Kunz. After 10 days of searching, diving, and scouring the hillsides, the Sheriff’s Office has decided to redirect the investigation. The primary searchers included multiple agencies such as, Salmon Search & Rescue, The Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office, The Bonneville County Sheriff’s Office & Bonneville County Search & Rescue, Salmon PD, Idaho Fish & Game, multiple canine handlers, divers, and the public, especially the community of Leadore. The family of DeOrr has continued to cooperate with law enforcement and has volunteered to take polygraphs, which is common in these types of investigations. The parents are not considered suspects and this is a routine procedure. The Sheriff’s Office will keep a presence in the Timber Creek area, continuing to search for clues, and has not ruled out abduction by strangers or wild animals. Numerous resources, including helicopters with FLIR, diver’s, side scan sonar, scent dogs, cadaver dogs, horses, atv’s, and over 300 people, were used to grid and search the reservoir, the creek, and the hillsides, with absolutely no sign of the victim. We are asking the public to continue to report any information to the Idaho Fusion Center at 208 846-7676, or to the Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office at 208 756-8980.
Sheriff Lynn D. Bowerman/Chief Deputy Steve Penner

https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice/posts/884467051627459

BBM
As of July 20th the Sheriff's office redirected the investigation, but to what? Did they look into abduction by strangers or wild animals and determine by July 31st that "There is no evidence suggesting DeOrr was abducted," and "There is also no sign the toddler was attacked by the bears, mountain lions and wolves known to roam the area"? (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Q52OP20150731?irpc=932) This states that on the 20th, the parents had volunteered to take polygraphs, but that doesn't mean they had taken them.

On the 15th, Nate Eaton reported "According to investigators, Kunz and Mitchell have offered DNA samples and are willing to undergo lie detector tests." (http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/)

On the 17th, the following exchange took place on the Nancy Grace show:
JEAN CESAREZ: Matt Zarrell, one more thing. Lie detector tests, polygraphs -- have any of them been done at all with family members?

MATT ZARRELL: No, but the cops are telling us on the record that the parents have volunteered to take polygraphs, but the sheriff doubts that they would even be administered at this time. http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/16/ng.01.html

Has anyone seen a reputable MSM source or video of the Sheriff saying the people at the campsite actually took polygraphs? (not blogs or news aggregator sites) If they took them and passed, I would expect the PI to be shouting that from rooftops. I wonder if they haven't taken them yet.

Does "no sign of the victim" mean there was no evidence he was ever there or no evidence to explain his disappearance? That is an unusual phrase in this situation.

 

[BeeFriendly]

View attachment 80026

--came across this pic of Deorr in his camo jacket.

--adorable child.

Absolutely precious...Put this picture in front of someone at the NCMEC and they would tell you it wasn't him! The eyes are wrong. They're brown not blue. JMO

 

[rkf]

I remember that article explicitly when it came out. That was the Reuters one. Immediately after I read that...this one came out, posted the same day 7/31/15, saying he couldn't rule it out.
http://www.localnews8.com/news/sheriff-says-hes-convinced-deorr-kunz-was-not-abducted/34472108
The media is so wishy washy...words are subject to change slightly all the time. I remember following the Germain Wings incident. I read everything on that one and, depending on who was doing the writing, details changed daily. It got so bad I started taking screen shots because the same article I had read one day would change overnight by adding or omitting details that weren't there the day before. Since day one, I felt this has been shoddy journalism in Deorr's case.

There is SO MUCH shoddy journalism. It's really distressing. I believe the sheriff's statements since about the 20th have been that there hasn't been any evidence of abduction and he doesn't think DeOrr was abducted, but he can't rule it out completely (CYA). I haven't seen any articles in the last few weeks where he treated kidnapping like it was a viable possibility. Same with animal attack and drowning in the creek or reservoir. He hasn't left us with many options to sleuth.

ETA: The whole sentence in that article was "Although he's convinced the 2-year-old was not abducted, Bowerman said he's unable to rule out the possibility." So same story, different wording. I think Reuters recycled another reporter's story, possibly the one you posted, and tried to re-word the sheriff's statement to avoid plagiarizing.
http://www.localnews8.com/news/sheriff-says-hes-convinced-deorr-kunz-was-not-abducted/34472108

 

[rkf]

Right? Crazy. During the search.

What was everyone's first thoughts when you heard this? I immediately thought it was to throw off the investigation - but then I'm suspicious like that.

The only way it would be somewhat explainable is if she was camping in the upper campground which is on the other side of the reservoir and hadn't left that area and the search and searchers were more around the creek and campground and were not yet visible from the reservoir.

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But DK himself said you could see everything below the reservoir from above the reservoir. I think 200 people swarming over a previously uninhabited area (except for 5 people) would be pretty noticeable. I also think the reservoir would have been a focus of attention early on, even before cadaver dogs and divers joined the search. Who would want to throw off the scent dogs and would just happen to have cremains in their possession for just such a situation? I can buy someone wanting to throw a wrench in the investigation, but who would also have that particular means at her disposal? Crazy, crazy coincidence.

ETA: Who would know SAR was bringing in cadaver dogs? Everyone in town? Is it just a given that after a certain number of days, LE brings in cadaver dogs? She dumped the cremains right when the dogs started working, contaminating the whole area IIRC.

 

[rkf]

BBM

It seems like this is kind of what happened. Miscommunication between caretakers.

Sounds like no communication between care givers. The parents never said they told ggp they were taking off and he was to watch DeOrr. They've never mentioned any conversation with ggp about watching DeOrr until they came back and asked where DeOrr was. At least that's what I've internalized from their interview. July 28th: "The sheriff says the great-grandfather is not considered a suspect due to his declining physical and mental health." http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...-search-deorr-kuna-persons-interest/30799181/ If that is true, and the parents didn't give ggp a heads up as they left, are we to believe that a man in such bad shape that he couldn't be considered a suspect, tethered to an oxygen tank, would somehow figure out that he was in charge of the child and be able to chase him down or call out to the parents if DeOrr toddled off? That just doesn't make sense. Unless DK and JM know he is more capable of handling child care than LE thinks he is capable of being involved in or witness to a crime. Clearly, if ggp actually saw DeOrr wander off in his parents' direction, it had not been explained to him that he was to keep DeOrr with him. Or he wouldn't have been so shocked when DK came back and asked him about DeOrr's whereabouts. JMO
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/uncut-entire-interview-with-parents-of-deorr-kunz/

 

[KYPastTracker]

Right? Crazy. During the search.

What was everyone's first thoughts when you heard this? I immediately thought it was to throw off the investigation - but then I'm suspicious like that.

The only way it would be somewhat explainable is if she was camping in the upper campground which is on the other side of the reservoir and hadn't left that area and the search and searchers were more around the creek and campground and were not yet visible from the reservoir.

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I, at first, had the same thoughts you did, but then when the Sheriff seemed to clear the person, just chalked it up to a very bizarre coincidence, EVEN though I find it incomprehensible! And totally bizarre!

 

[Trident]

But DK himself said you could see everything below the reservoir from above the reservoir. I think 200 people swarming over a previously uninhabited area (except for 5 people) would be pretty noticeable. I also think the reservoir would have been a focus of attention early on, even before cadaver dogs and divers joined the search. Who would want to throw off the scent dogs and would just happen to have cremains in their possession for just such a situation? I can buy someone wanting to throw a wrench in the investigation, but who would also have that particular means at her disposal? Crazy, crazy coincidence.

ETA: Who would know SAR was bringing in cadaver dogs? Everyone in town? Is it just a given that after a certain number of days, LE brings in cadaver dogs? She dumped the cremains right when the dogs started working, contaminating the whole area IIRC.

I have a relative with a ready supply of cremains. I've often said she's worse than a medieval relic collector. It totally creeps me out.

 

[Trident]

Why does the sheriff care if people are speculating? I understand it's not "nice" but how does it affect the investigation? I wish we knew people on the ground so we could find out what people were speculating about early on. (Yes, I know it's rumor, but the rumors must have been egregious and far reaching for LE to keep addressing them in every statement and interview. Why aren't these grown people IGNORING the idle gossip and negative chatter? The focus on "hearsay" is disturbing, as it should not be the main topic of a missing child investigation. JMO.

ETA: http://www.klewtv.com/news/local/missing-toddler-316054031.html

Is it possible that many involved in this case share the same societal/cultural/religious beliefs? From the case of Jerold Joseph Williams in AZ I saw how closed-mouthed some people can be. In that case we didn't even get to know the names of the child's parents, did we?

My opinion only, just speculating