ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

[CSIDreamer]

The press needs to retain a high-powered attorney to revisit the media access and camera issues. Time to take it to a higher court.

I agree. I'm still dumbfounded.

 

[fred&edna]

The press needs to retain a high-powered attorney to revisit the media access and camera issues. Time to take it to a higher court.

I wonder how Wright was chosen to represent the media back in September??

 

[Love Never Fails]

So, they knew it was illegal to kill people (according to the laws of the US government) but they ascribe to a higher calling and believe themselves to be extra-ethereally chosen and special. So, by not admitting guilt under US government laws... IF found guilty, are they trying to send a "we are martyrs" message (especially) to those who follow their religious beliefs??

Obviously, I don't "get" any of their belief system plans.

Sounds like you “get it” perfectly.

Killers who made excuses. Just like every killer that ever lived.

 

[Love Never Fails]

Justin Lum isn't happy either.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1633315543888588801

It is insane, just like the defendants. Insane but the judge knows better! So did the defendants.

SO DO WE, THE PEOPLE.

 

[887sMtreme]

I actually find this a very good comparison, and not for disparaging reasons. During the Salem witch trials the witches were tried as much for their religious beliefs as for their acts. It is also now believed that most were mentally ill, or at least experiencing symptoms of mental illness due to ergot poisoning from moldy grain.

Before pointing fingers it should be noted that there are plenty of things in this country that would otherwise be illegal but are permitted when there are "sincerely held religious beliefs" to use the current term of art. Peyote can be used by Native Americans for example and Native Alaskans can hunt whales and seals.

Christianity and Judaism both have a history of animal sacrifice. Most Christian denominations practice ritualistic cannibalism (communion, consuming teh body and blood of Christ). I shudder to think how our courts would treat members of a tribe that do sincerely practice human sacrifice or cannibalism and somehow find themselves in the US. In 1993, the US supreme court ruled that members of the Santeria religion are protected from prosecution for sacrificing animals. I believe turning people into zombies (with drugs) is part of some Haitian religions. The Hawaiian religion practiced human sacrifice and it is still practiced by some today (without the sacrifice part.)

I think what Chad and Lori believed and did is way beyond any mainstream religion. But the thing is, constitutional protection does not depend on being mainstream. I could certainly see showing that they sincerely believed that people "go dark" or turn into zombies and must then be eliminated could be part of the defense if only to have grounds for appeal on religious freedom grounds later. It would appear from all we have heard that they actually did sincerely believe this. Yes, it is bat $4it crazy to me.

Just going to have to make popcorn and watch the circus play out!

Good thinking but as to the Salem witch trials, it seems that it was the witnesses more than most of the accused who were more than a little looney-tunes. Up until fairly recently in this country there was a term used for what troubled such people: religious hysteria. You’ll find it in the entry records of what were then called insane asylums and sometimes police reports.

The actual accused witches of Salem were often just women with valuable property that could be seized if they were incarcerated or executed. Some were objects of jealousy or long-standing animosity over entirely secular matters. Many were demonstrably devout Christians.

The Salem experience (widely repeated elsewhere at the time, if less dramatically) still stands today as a warning about what can happen when rational thought and laws are pushed aside or altered to accommodate belief. If for no other reason, I hope that the Daybells’ bizarre belief system is not brought into this trial. It would be entertaining, but at what cost? Some among us may understand that our own beliefs may seem enough to condemn us, with the wrong people in positions to judge us on any grounds but pure scientific and logical evidence.

 

[887sMtreme]

I actually find this a very good comparison, and not for disparaging reasons. During the Salem witch trials the witches were tried as much for their religious beliefs as for their acts. It is also now believed that most were mentally ill, or at least experiencing symptoms of mental illness due to ergot poisoning from moldy grain.

Before pointing fingers it should be noted that there are plenty of things in this country that would otherwise be illegal but are permitted when there are "sincerely held religious beliefs" to use the current term of art. Peyote can be used by Native Americans for example and Native Alaskans can hunt whales and seals.

Christianity and Judaism both have a history of animal sacrifice. Most Christian denominations practice ritualistic cannibalism (communion, consuming teh body and blood of Christ). I shudder to think how our courts would treat members of a tribe that do sincerely practice human sacrifice or cannibalism and somehow find themselves in the US. In 1993, the US supreme court ruled that members of the Santeria religion are protected from prosecution for sacrificing animals. I believe turning people into zombies (with drugs) is part of some Haitian religions. The Hawaiian religion practiced human sacrifice and it is still practiced by some today (without the sacrifice part.)

I think what Chad and Lori believed and did is way beyond any mainstream religion. But the thing is, constitutional protection does not depend on being mainstream. I could certainly see showing that they sincerely believed that people "go dark" or turn into zombies and must then be eliminated could be part of the defense if only to have grounds for appeal on religious freedom grounds later. It would appear from all we have heard that they actually did sincerely believe this. Yes, it is bat $4it crazy to me.

Just going to have to make popcorn and watch the circus play out!

Good thinking but as to the Salem witch trials, it seems that it was the witnesses more than most of the accused who were more than a little looney-tunes. Up until fairly recently in this country there was a term used for what troubled such people: religious hysteria. You’ll find it in the entry records of what were then called insane asylums and sometimes police reports.

The actual accused witches of Salem were often just women with valuable property that could be seized if they were incarcerated or executed. Some were objects of jealousy or long-standing animosity over entirely secular matters. Many were demonstrably devout Christians.

The Salem experience (widely repeated elsewhere at the time, if less dramatically) still stands today as a warning about what can happen when rational thought and laws are pushed aside or altered to accommodate belief. If for no other reason, I hope that the Daybells’ bizarre belief system is not brought into this trial. It would be entertaining, but at what cost? Some among us may understand that our own beliefs may seem enough to condemn us, with the wrong people in positions to judge us on any grounds but pure scientific and logical evidence.

 

[887sMtreme]

DBM (duplicate — I blame my sluggish internet service, sorry)

 

[887sMtreme]

I think you nailed it - that LVD and CD will want to have a knowledgeable witness to counter any claim they have wild beliefs, or were trying to start a "cult," with the revelation that there are MANY such LDS sub-groups with focus on end times, future preparedness, and flexibility to embrace what they feel is being revealed to them by someone with a closer tie to God. "These guys are just one of many, doing what they all do, each in their own particular way following what they have believed is God's right way."

Bingo.

 

[887sMtreme]

The press needs to retain a high-powered attorney to revisit the media access and camera issues. Time to take it to a higher court.

Reporters’ Committee is the usual go-to, but I don’t know in this case. Didn’t they already chime in, to no avail?

 

[Gardenista]

Reporters’ Committee is the usual go-to, but I don’t know in this case. Didn’t they already chime in, to no avail?

If I knew the attorney's background at one time I've now forgotten it. All I remember is making a comment on the thread about what an ineffectual argument he made.

 

[fred&edna]

Here's a news snippet from Sept.

A coalition of more than 30 news organizations including The Associated Press asked the judge to reject the defense attorneys' motion.

Steve Wright, the attorney for the news coalition led by EastIdahoNews.com, told the judge that banning cameras would not stop the widespread public interest in the case but instead prevent people from seeing the most accurate depiction of the proceedings. The news organizations also noted that the coverage was done to inform members of the public, most of whom are unable to attend in person.

Judge bans cameras from Lori Vallow's murder case

An Idaho judge has banned cameras from the courtroom in the high-profile triple murder case against Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell.

www.fox10phoenix.com

 

[887sMtreme]

Good thinking but as to the Salem witch trials, it seems that it was the witnesses more than most of the accused who were more than a little looney-tunes.

Too late to edit but I want to include the Salem officials along with the accusers in the looney-tunes category. Easy for us to say from the vantage point of our less superstitious vantage point, I guess. Who knows what will be said about *us* in 300 years? (“Wow, those humans, huh? What a species!”)

 

[887sMtreme]

If I knew the attorney's background at one time I've now forgotten it. All I remember is making a comment on the thread about what an ineffectual argument he made.

I remember and it surprised me. I was an editor with the Reporters Committee back in the 70s, when it was small but mighty, with some of the best legal minds in the country associated with it.

 

[mickey2942]

Darn. I really wanted to watch this trial on Court TV. I was hoping LVD would take the stand and blow Jodi Arias testimony out of the water. BTW, another good LDS gal.

 

[KonaHonu]

The Salem experience (widely repeated elsewhere at the time, if less dramatically) still stands today as a warning about what can happen when rational thought and laws are pushed aside or altered to accommodate belief.

I wonder if we are seeing this at work now. Upthread people were speculating that cameras and audio were restricted because of the influence of the Mormon Church. I really hope this is not the situation. Neither the church nor its leaders have any standing in this case. If they met with the judge ex-parte and lobbied him (whether he is LDS or not) he should recuse himself. While it may not be illegal it would be extremely unethical to make decisions like that because of the wishes of the church.

I understand the influence of the LDS church in Idaho and know they do not like negative publicity. But this has never been about CD and LV being mormon. The church pushing to bar cameras and keep things quiet sounds a little like a guilty child saying "I didn't do it." Influencing a judge though would result in seriously negative publicity and very possibly a mistrial.

 

[watergirl62]

If my math is even close that's $120 for 8 hours of audio files.

Or roughly $6000 for 10 weeks. Um.

Go Fund Me Severence?

Sad yet sketchy attempt to sever the circus from the courtroom. I'd like Clown Cars and Balloons Animals for 500, Alex.

<cues Jeopardy soundbyte>

 

[Kemug]

I must say that I am eagerly awaiting the young Daybells' testimony. I suppose it is just barely possible that their opinion of CD as a wonderful, kind, loving, etc etc family man and pillar of the community may have some merit to it. And perhaps it was true once. But sadly I think those days are long gone. And although it may be true that CD was caught in the evil snares of LV, that does not absolve him of any blame at all, IMO. And the young D's claims annoy me, to be frank. I would have a bit more respect for CD (but not much) if he admitted everything, repented, and begged for forgiveness.

 

[Ruminations]

I must say that I am eagerly awaiting the young Daybells' testimony. I suppose it is just barely possible that their opinion of CD as a wonderful, kind, loving, etc etc family man and pillar of the community may have some merit to it. And perhaps it was true once. But sadly I think those days are long gone. And although it may be true that CD was caught in the evil snares of LV, that does not absolve him of any blame at all, IMO. And the young D's claims annoy me, to be frank. I would have a bit more respect for CD (but not much) if he admitted everything, repented, and begged for forgiveness.

Both can be true: a person can be valuable in the family and/or community and also a murderer.

I'm not sure that both ARE true in Chad's case from my point of view. It appears he was emotionally abusive to Tammy to me- and had affair(s?)- and put all of the financial support and child rearing on Tammy. But I was introduced to Chad in a wholly different way than his kiddults.

They are entitled to their favorable opinions about his contributions to family and community.

They can't adjudicate the criminal charges anymore than I can. The opinion for Chad's guilt lies with a jury- not with the kiddults and not with me.

MOO

 

[mickey2942]

I must say that I am eagerly awaiting the young Daybells' testimony. I suppose it is just barely possible that their opinion of CD as a wonderful, kind, loving, etc etc family man and pillar of the community may have some merit to it. And perhaps it was true once. But sadly I think those days are long gone. And although it may be true that CD was caught in the evil snares of LV, that does not absolve him of any blame at all, IMO. And the young D's claims annoy me, to be frank. I would have a bit more respect for CD (but not much) if he admitted everything, repented, and begged for forgiveness.

I really wonder about CD's travel to all of these meetings, to sell his books. If he met LVD that way, maybe there were others?

As for Tammy Daybell's death, have we seen an autopsy yet? Does CD think he can still beat that?

I am interested in the jury selection for CD, who would be a good profile juror for this case?

 

[Ruminations]

I really wonder about CD's travel to all of these meetings, to sell his books. If he met LVD that way, maybe there were others?

As for Tammy Daybell's death, have we seen an autopsy yet? Does CD think he can still beat that?

I am interested in the jury selection for CD, who would be a good profile juror for this case?

I guess the people who learned from Chad and his stolen necklace that they were Nephi or Isaac's mother or Joseph, father of Jesus, Maroni's nanny and stuff like that.....They could be decent jurors from his point of view- unless they have now realized that they lost their marriages and life savings and the world didn't end after all.

MOO