ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #69

[aafromaa]

I'm sure there is a better and more official list than this, but here is my quick take on the characters:

LVD - Lori Vallow Daybell
CD - Chad Daybell

JJ - Lori and Charles Vallow's adopted son, JJ Vallow. JJ is the biological son of Charles' nephew and is the biological grandchild of Kay Woodcock (KW).
TR - Tylee Ryan. Lori and joseph Ryan's (Lori's 3rd husband) daughter. Charles Vallow's stepdaughter.

TD - Tammy Daybell. Chad's deceased wife. Allegedly murdered by Chad and Lori.
SG - Samantha Gwilliam. Tammy's sister. (Told LE about pet cemetery on Chad's property.)
Chad and Tammy's children are: Garth Daybell, Emma Murray, Seth Daybell, Leah Murphy and Mark Daybell.

CV - Charles Vallow (Lori's 4th husband). Children are Cole, Zach and JJ. (JJ is adopted)
KW - Kay Woodcock. JJ's grandmother and Charles Vallow's sister. Filed request for welfare check for JJ.
LW - Larry Woodcock. Kay's husband.

AC - Alex Cox. Lori's brother. Shot Charles Vallow. Alleged killer of Tylee and JJ. Died of apparent heart issue Dec 2019.
ZP - Zulema Pastenes. Married Alex Cox 2 weeks before he died. Part of Lori and Chad's group. Testified.
JC - Janis Cox. Lori's mother.
BC - Barry Cox. Lori's father.
SS - Susan Cox Shiflet. Lori's sister.
Adam Cox - Lori's brother. (don't know if initials are used since they match his brother Alex's.)
ZC - Zac Cox. Adam Cox's son. Lori's nephew who lived with her and Charles for a period of time.

MP/MB/MBP - Melani Boudreaux Pawlowski. Lori's niece.
BB - Brandon Boudreaux. Melani's ex-husband. Someone attempted to kill him. Testified at trial.
IP - Ian Pawlowski. Melani's current husband.

MG - Melanie Gibb. Lori's ex-close friend. Testified.

JR - Joseph Ryan - 3rd husband. Father of Tylee Ryan.
CR - Colby Ryan - son of Lori and her 2nd husband. Half-brother of Tylee.

I hope this helps!

And here is a link to a "who's who in the Daybell case" from East Idaho News, providing more detail:

Who's who in the Daybell case - East Idaho News

Thanks, Snoopster! Exactly what I was looking for regarding who’s who. Now another thing I’m having trouble following is the timeline on all this craziness. I’ve found a a couple of timelines online by various news sources but many seem obsolete as testimony comes out. Do you know of one that might be better than others - that perhaps they are updating as the trial progresses?

 

[texaslb218]

I haven't read thread since about 4 PM so this may not be interesting to fellow members. I am watching "Sins of Our Mother" on Netflix. Even reading here, reading FB, watching tv updates----there is not equal in details to the information I am learning. Basic facts we knew, but there are details I didn't know. This program is worth the time. JMHO.

 

[Trebor5591]

They can communicate with their portals.

No, they can not. This was just one of their lies. My opinion.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I am forming a theory in relation to Tammys and possibly Alex’s death. Anyone know why Tammy was prescribed tramadol? Did she have any back or neck problems?

IIRC, Tramadol shouldn't be taken with medications used to treat depression. Risk of seizures or death during an OD.

I don't know why she was prescribed the tramadol. I have had the OD *through no fault of her own* theory for some time, and still can't believe they didn't perform an autopsy at the time. All I can think is CD must be one believable LIAR for some people.

 

[Boxer]

No, they can not. This was just one of their lies. My opinion.

MOO "portals" code for phone s*x. Her portal was in her closet.

 

[kittythehare]

MOO "portals" code for phone s*x. Her portal was in her closet.

it's a commonly used phrase in new age circles where it means places of high energy, usually where one will meditate or in this case levitate and meet with higher beings or light beings..or in this case become one, Jesus himself according to the accused.
Some geographical areas of the world are said to be portals, Sedona is one but there are many..

 

[Ruminations]

I continue to use Brian David Mitchell, kidnapper and rapist of Elizabeth Smart, in relationship to LVD and CD. Mitchell stated that he kidnapped Elizabeth Smart for "religious beliefs". But he was still found competent for trial, and is currently serving a life term at Utah State prison. Personally, I think Wanda Barzee, his accomplice, should not have been paroled.

The religious beliefs aside, murdering children, is wrong. LVD knew that. Otherwise, why not just proclaim that she did conspire with CD and AC to murder Tylee and JJ? Proclaim proudly that she did it because they were both possessed by zombies. I don't see that happening. Straight to prison.

Agree. LVD knew her actions were illegal, even if she really believed she took them in righteousness.

I happen to think she did believe she took them in righteousness, and that it was because of religious delusions. The money rewards- that was because she is so special when she got them, or because she was so threatening to dark spirits when she didn't. Still, her delusions were convenient. Delusions usually are.

But she knew she was breaking the law here on earth and tried to hide it. She knew right and wrong.

Her delusions were also conveniently inconsistent. Why not just put pills in her own water and "volunteer" to come back to usher in the second coming instead of retiring in the celestial champagne room? At least after the world failed to end. Again.

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

Agree. LVD knew her actions were illegal, even if she really believed she took them in righteousness.

I happen to think she did believe she took them in righteousness, and that it was because of religious delusions. The money rewards- that was because she is so special when she got them, or because she was so threatening to dark spirits when she didn't. Still, her delusions were convenient. Delusions usually are.

But she knew she was breaking the law here on earth and tried to hide it. She knew right and wrong.

Her delusions were also conveniently inconsistent. Why not just put pills in her own water and "volunteer" to come back to usher in the second coming instead of retiring in the celestial champagne room? At least after the world failed to end. Again.

MOO

God, yes!
I imagine she didn't really believe it is that sweet over there.. yonder..
I wonder whether they had other victims?
A lot of what I'm reading is ringing black magic bells all over the place.
i wonder how proficient they actually were?

 

[Boxer]

it's a commonly used phrase in new age circles where it means places of high energy, usually where one will meditate or in this case levitate and meet with higher beings or light beings..or in this case become one, Jesus himself according to the accused.
Some geographical areas of the world are said to be portals, Sedona is one but there are many..

Yes and CD and LVD were in a their own fantasy of multiple time warp and world lives and marriages.

 

[indicolite22]

Well, that morning? On that September 23rd? I think anyone without their head soaked in their cult stuff would have not assumed all was fine. Even just not being reported to be in school is problematic. Why isn't he in school? Or, if so out of control he can't attend, why isn't he on his way to an emergency Dr. Visit and/or emergency school plan meeting? I think while I usually assume parents are handling their children and know where they are, all the available information that morning was that JJ was not being parented appropriately. I would have called in a welfare check if I was not escorted to Alex's to see him.

But Melanie was cult brained at best- suppressing the processing of all information that would separate her from her prophets.

I'm inclined to think it was worse then we know- I can't get past all those phone calls that same day between Lori and Melanie that Melanie says she does not recall. I really want to know what that was about. But, I don't think Melanie is at a place that she can see it. Like- when everyone else knows your spouse is having an affair. You're not stupid or lying. You can't deal with it yet. But what Melanie can't deal with is far, far worse.

She was not minding her own business because she thought Lori was doing fine with JJ. But she probably was doing the best she could.

MOO

JJ looked fine the previous evening. I don't think MG and DW suspected JJ could be harmed by his carers overnight (or ever). Lori and MG were previously discussing giving him to Kay. IMO reporting your best friend to social services just because you don't see their child in the morning, when there is an explanation given, is too much. It would have been too late anyway. MG didn't know that JJ didn't go to school that day.

 

[MercyQ]

Sorry, Ruminations, I don't know how to delete accidentally replying to one of your posts here. I meant to add to the posts about all the evidence of financial motives for murder. I also may be violating the way you are supposed to post links.

I am not an Idaho attorney, have not reviewed any of the evidentiary pleadings or rulings in the case, nor am I familiar with the rules and cases in Idaho that may be relevant. Here, the trial attorney's role is to ask questions in a way that will help the jury and help the witness. Here, IMHO, the witness could have recollected her past testimony/statements, but was inhibited by the passage of time, this witness ALWAYS gets confused when trying to converse with someone (see her own statement, and the impressions of a professional news reporter, below) and her answers have always appeared to be misunderstood by the trial attorneys who ALL then engage in rapid-fire questioning that is slightly off, as if the attorneys know the testimony is garbled but do not know how to help the witness by accessing the past statements the witness had made. An attorney has to identify the times the attorney needs to slow down the proceeding, not speed it up, to get the correct testimony into the record. IMHO, when a motive for murder was involved, the correct testimony is crucial.

In addition to being able to ask clarifying questions, attorneys in a case like this will have people assisting them during trial who are supposed to know the facts inside-out, and have the ability to simultaneously acess useful prior witness stements and exhibits while testimony is being received.

Each trial team should have a person like Annie Cushing. (Timeline of Events Around the Disappearance of Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow - Annielytics.com)

When I heard the MG testimony, I knew what she was trying to say and remember, and had my answer to what the testimony was "supposed" to be. I just ran a GOOGLE search for Lori Vallow Insurance $3 Million. see: Part 2: Melanie Gibb describes zombies, JJ's disappearance and the 'fatal attraction' between Chad and Lori Daybell - East Idaho News):

“I didn’t know about (the shooting) until four days after it happened. She called me and said, ‘Hey, did you see the news?’ … I said, ‘I don’t watch the news,’ and she said, ‘Charles was shot,'” Gibb says. “I’m like, ‘What?'”
Gibb was confused and asked what happened. Lori said Charles had been planning to kill her to cash in on a $3 million life insurance policy. She also said Charles’ sister, Kay Woodcock (who is also the grandmother of JJ, whom Charles adopted), had turned into a zombie and was after her. “She told me (Charles) had about $1 million (in life insurance), and she knew when he passed away, she thought she was going to get the money … but she thought possibly the policy had been switched from her to Kay,” Gibb says.

Unless there was a tactical reason to avoid assisting the witness, which IMHO was absurd once this witness got confused, the trail attorney's team should have printed out and given the prior statements of the witness to the trial attorney to quickly review -- during direct, or at a minimum prior to re-direct. Hopefully the data analytics/trial support person on the team will get better (or get more help) as the trial progresses.

I will not pretend to understand how the people in this Idaho courtroom have been or will be handling Idaho Rules of Evidence Rule 612 (Writing or Object Used to Refresh a Witness's Memory) or the extensive case law in that state involving the presentment of evidence to a jury. I cannot see the trial team in action, so maybe he/she/they were trying to signal their attorney at the point the witness needed help. Clearly, the trial team has methods to quickly access all the discovery and all the outside data sources, including websleuths.com, throughout the trial.

​

 

[Tortoise]

I think the defense attoreny is making some interesting moves, like questining the "MOTIVE" for murdering Charles Vallow. It opens the door ...

I am not an Idaho attorney, have not reviewed any of the evidentiary pleadings or rulings in the case, nor am I familiar with the rules and cases in Idaho that may be relevant. Here, the trial attorney's role is to ask questions in a way that will help the jury and help the witness. Here, IMHO, the witness could have recollected her past testimony/statements, but was inhibited by the passage of time, this witness ALWAYS gets confused when trying to converse with someone (see her own statement, and the impressions of a professional news reporter, below) and her answers have always appeared to be misunderstood by the trial attorneys who ALL then engage in rapid-fire questioning that is slightly off, as if the attorneys know the testimony is garbled but do not know how to help the witness by accessing the past statements the witness had made. An attorney has to identify the times the attorney needs to slow down the proceeding, not speed it up, to get the correct testimony into the record. IMHO, when a motive for murder was involved, the correct testimony is crucial.

In addition to being able to ask clarifying questions, attorneys in a case like this will have people assisting them during trial who are supposed to know the facts inside-out, and have the ability to simultaneously acess useful prior witness stements and exhibits while testimony is being received.

Each trial team should have a person like Annie Cushing. (Timeline of Events Around the Disappearance of Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow - Annielytics.com)

When I heard the MG testimony, I knew what she was trying to say and remember, and had my answer to what the testimony was "supposed" to be. I just ran a GOOGLE search for Lori Vallow Insurance $3 Million. see: Part 2: Melanie Gibb describes zombies, JJ's disappearance and the 'fatal attraction' between Chad and Lori Daybell - East Idaho News):

“I didn’t know about (the shooting) until four days after it happened. She called me and said, ‘Hey, did you see the news?’ … I said, ‘I don’t watch the news,’ and she said, ‘Charles was shot,'” Gibb says. “I’m like, ‘What?'”
Gibb was confused and asked what happened. Lori said Charles had been planning to kill her to cash in on a $3 million life insurance policy. She also said Charles’ sister, Kay Woodcock (who is also the grandmother of JJ, whom Charles adopted), had turned into a zombie and was after her. “She told me (Charles) had about $1 million (in life insurance), and she knew when he passed away, she thought she was going to get the money … but she thought possibly the policy had been switched from her to Kay,” Gibb says.

Unless there was a tactical reason to avoid assisting the witness, which IMHO was absurd once this witness got confused, the trail attorney's team should have printed out and given the prior statements of the witness to the trial attorney to quickly review -- during direct, or at a minimum prior to re-direct. Hopefully the data analytics/trial support person on the team will get better (or get more help) as the trial progresses.

I will not pretend to understand how the people in this Idaho courtroom have been or will be handling Idaho Rules of Evidence Rule 612 (Writing or Object Used to Refresh a Witness's Memory) or the extensive case law in that state involving the presentment of evidence to a jury. I cannot see the trial team in action, so maybe he/she/they were trying to signal their attorney at the point the witness needed help. Clearly, the trial team has methods to quickly access all the discovery and all the outside data sources, including websleuths.com, throughout the trial.

​

To be honest I don't think it really mattered to the prosecution because they knew they had the evidence coming in from Lori's texts to Chad showing that neither of them knew Charles had changed the beneficiary, and were guessing who the beneficiary was, before Lori then discovered it was Kay. Their first guess was that it was changed to Brandon, and that it could even have been changed fraudulently after Charles' death.

The jurors will understand that there was a lot going on around that time, particularly going back to remember what was known by whom exactly at what point in time, and memory is a fallible thing. I think the prosecution would only bring up differences in accounts when they don't have other more credible evidence that settles the issue, and if it's changed from an earlier version told to police. They don't really want to go down the road of impeaching their own witness because then it looks like the prosecution are saying don't trust this witness, it would be unsettling for the witness, and the jury might think the witness is not being honest or favors the defense, and can they rely on anything the witness has said. She believed what she was testifying to was true, and has a patchy memory. All IMO

 

[Tortoise]

1:59:10 in video - the night Tammy was shot at, describing Lori on the phone -

Zulema - "she was very very angry, scary angry...she was using some very derogatory terms such as idiot, moron, and just being very very angry with whoever she was on the phone with...

Q. after she got off the phone, what did she say to you?

Zulema - "she said idiot can't do anything right by himself"

This was seven days after the near-miss shooting at Brandon.


I think the jury has seen Lori's fury, when she had to listen to the descriptions of the recovery of Tylee's and JJ's bodies. The goddess is a diva.

I think it's good evidence suggesting Alex wasn't alone when the children were murdered.

 

[AngTxGal]

Well, that morning? On that September 23rd? I think anyone without their head soaked in their cult stuff would have not assumed all was fine. Even just not being reported to be in school is problematic. Why isn't he in school? Or, if so out of control he can't attend, why isn't he on his way to an emergency Dr. Visit and/or emergency school plan meeting? I think while I usually assume parents are handling their children and know where they are, all the available information that morning was that JJ was not being parented appropriately. I would have called in a welfare check if I was not escorted to Alex's to see him.

But Melanie was cult brained at best- suppressing the processing of all information that would separate her from her prophets.

I'm inclined to think it was worse then we know- I can't get past all those phone calls that same day between Lori and Melanie that Melanie says she does not recall. I really want to know what that was about. But, I don't think Melanie is at a place that she can see it. Like- when everyone else knows your spouse is having an affair. You're not stupid or lying. You can't deal with it yet. But what Melanie can't deal with is far, far worse.

She was not minding her own business because she thought Lori was doing fine with JJ. But she probably was doing the best she could.

MOO

I agree that MG and DW should have seen red flags regarding JJ, not that they are culpable in any way, just that the info Lori told them doesn’t make sense.
Lori told them JJ was out of control, climbing on things, knocked a picture of Jesus down, and climbed onto the top of the refrig and on top of the cabinets between them and the ceiling.
This is the same MG that had been best buds with Lori, and she thinks this is typical of JJ? I think it is odd that MG had no relationship with JJ or Tylee. These are her best friends kids- how does that happen?

Seriously? All of what Lori described is an obvious crock of bull.
MG and DW were at the apartment upstairs when JJ was doing this climbing, they didn’t hear?
Lori told them AC had come to get JJ.

I’m guessing JJ was drugged the evening of Sept 22, during the podcast they were making. JJ was in the way, being rowdy, and AC took care of him.
Where was JJ on Sat Sept 22 when all the adults went to see a piece of property with a realtor? In the prelim DW testifies that he, MG, CD, LVD, and AC went to see property near CD’s home. Where was JJ then? If someone had him, who is that person?

JMO

 

[Ruminations]

Okay. But you weren't there, so that didn't happen.

Are you saying, if you had been MG, JJ wouldn't have died, therefore it's MG's fault JJ died?

That's certainly not a legally-sound argument, and seems a pretty slippery moral argument, to me.

JMO

Ummm. No. I am not blaming MG or DW in JJ's death.

I am saying that a person not in a cult with average judgement would have found JJ dead or alive, would have had officials find him dead or alive, or would have caused him to be a missing child THAT DAY. Based on what we know.

I am saying I suspect that the fact that JJ was dead or in danger may have been even more obvious than we know. I cite the several longish phone calls LE told Melanie were had between her and Lori as she was on the road to David's home. Melanie says she does not remember what was said. I call repression or BS or a combo due to Melanie's cult brain or unaddressed shame. That does not make her a murderer.

Melanie was a victim as well as someone who clearly used very poor judgment. I am not going to moo like a cow here, because I think it is objectively true she used poor judgment.

It is not at all a slippery moral argument. It is that life is not black and white. It seems you think she either was a murder and used poor judgment, or she was not a murderer and her actions were fine.

Isn't it possible to be somewhere in between?

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

JJ looked fine the previous evening. I don't think MG and DW suspected JJ could be harmed by his carers overnight (or ever). Lori and MG were previously discussing giving him to Kay. IMO reporting your best friend to social services just because you don't see their child in the morning, when there is an explanation given, is too much. It would have been too late anyway. MG didn't know that JJ didn't go to school that day.

Fair enough, but it's not like they asked their best friend if they could say goodbye to JJ and the response was normal. The only normal response would be a calm, "Alex drove him to school already."

Then it would be understandable. But.... Tylee's stuff in storage when she lives up a hill? Door locked? No response to midnight calls and texts? Unusual claims of JJ's behavior? Then no rational response to it? (i.e. Behavior plan/meds if they work)?

But Melanie had been groomed to accept and not question Lori's responses. Lori was very capable to accelerate from, "I love you so much," to "What? You think I can't take care of JJ? That I don't know what's best for him? Look. People have been after me, yetI keep doing what I have to do. JJ was born to drug addicts and I took care of him! I already had 4 kids, and I took care of him! Charles would go on all of these business trips, leaving ME to deal with him. I did what I was supposed to do. Now I don't even deserve a little break while Alex cares for him?"

So, yeah. I see how it would be hard to use good judgment. But I still hold it is objectively true her judgement and David's was very poor.

MOO

Edited to add: David asked about him. Lori said that JJ was with Alex because he was being a zombie. They knew he was not in school.

In fact, at that time they should have ASSUMED he was in school, not asked about him.

MOO

 

[JerseyGirl]

New thread:

ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #70

Police searching for Rexburg children believed to be in serious danger | East Idaho News I believe this is going to be a more complicated case than it looks on the surface. The children's mother (Lori Wallows) recently married a man (Chad Daybell) a few weeks after his wife died. It was...

www.websleuths.com