ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[Nikynoo]

Do you mean present at the murders of JJ & Tylee?

why do you think she'll be found NG Conspiracy for Tammy's murder?

Let's think back to what they have presented already, just the Tammy conspiracy charge:
- "Idiot moron - he can't do anything right by himself" ( Angry L - Z) Jury definitely going to draw inferences from that
- what LV said about this once Tammy was killed ( After she heard about Tammy's death Zulema talked to Lori and she said her and Chad received instructions and visitations from angels who taught them how to cast out demons and they know how. That's why Tammy passed away)
- spirit Viola/Tammy dark ( combine that Chad - Lori text with what Z testified about bodies needed to be destroyed & what she said about casting out Viola) Melani P ought to be testifying for that casting as she was there
- LV digital searches rings thru whole summer ( prepping months before wearing these in actual wedding ceremony)
- testimony about the hitman & protector, followed by all the evidence which nails Alex as Mr paintball & his movements 10 days later when Tammy is murdered & the calls & texts AC - LV on these nights. ( I'm not convinced jury will see it as reasonable that Alex did a side-deal to eliminate Tammy without LV's foreknowledge)

Minor, teeny tiny puzzle pieces, optional extras
- Chad - Lori texts about his kids(?) graduation day & wtte of having to wait
- A stretch but I'd risk it - the whole combined scheme incl the Jeep & the failed shooting ( link back BB, security TV, her google searches.
- What MG said about Chad's new ' teachings' ( can't be exalted if divorced)
- After the fact, LV pretends not to know Tammy has died. ( calls with friends testimony)

There will be more but it would take time to search because - so many witnesses across so many days

ETA
Just to make clear to anybody new to case - Lori isn't indicted for 1st degree murder Tammy, she's indicted for conspiracy to commit murder of Tammy (It's Chad who's charged with 1st degree murder Tammy)

I’ve been following this trial every day and I had forgotten about the idiot phone call! oK, I’m now guilty for conspiracy with Tammy also.

Even though I’m convinced that Lori killed both the children, I have no evidence that she actually was present for Tylee, but having listened again to the opening statements, I am on the fence for Tylees murder. I am leaning more towards guilty but would really love some phone evidence for Tylee eg if Tylees phone stayed in Loris apartment on the night of 8/9 September, that would do it for me.

I believe there is enough evidence in respect to JJs murder, as both witnesses put JJ in loris bedroom that night. I would imagine that it being a fairly small house, that any noise would travel eg a visitor in the night.

TBH, to me it’s not important whether she is found guilty of the actual murders of the children, as long as she is found guilty of all the conspiracies. She is one canny lady to make sure her gps was turned off and I’m hoping that some work was done on Tylees phone to compensate.

I still think there is a lot more the prosecution can do to put this to bed with the outcome Tylee,JJ, Tammy and eventually, Charles deserve.
@cottonweaver You should do closing statements on this case, your recall is amazing!!

 

[Ruminations]

Exactly, that's why I think unless we hear much more compelling evidence in this case, this jury may very well take the easy way out and convict her on the grand theft charges but none of the murder or conspiracy to murder changes.

But... there was no money to steal without killing the kids.

And it's hard to claim she didn't know they were dead for a number of reasons. She said to Melanie (on tape) that she knew exact where JJ was and didn't want Alex to know. She said to Colby "I (emphasis on I) didn't murder [your siblings]" and that he wasn't there, implying that she knew they were murdered but didn't do it. She said to Summer she deserved to move on from their murder and get married and have fun.

If she knew they were dead, she was stealing. If she didn't know they were dead, she wasn't stealing. She was being a negligent parent.

If the jury finds grand theft, they have to find conspiracy for each child they find for grand theft.

MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

Wasn't it $5k-ish a month that she unlawfully collected?

She claimed JJs money plus her carer allowance for JJ. Thinking about it, she actually stole Tylees money from Tylee, not the government.

 

[Ruminations]

Now, the defense should be interesting, if they poke holes in the prosecution lack of evidence, LVD is just a sweet innocent, who knew nothing about what her brother and CD were doing.

Or, is LVD a sweet gal, who was star struck by CD, and followed his orders to kill Tylee and JJ. As a sacrifice to be in his cult. She was manipulated by CD, and has mental health problems.

They really can't go both ways here.

They can't go both ways.

manipulated and star struck is still guilty.

The evidence doesn't support she was unaware. Especially the evidence recoded by Mel and the 3 jail calls.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

I’ve been following this trial every day and I had forgotten about the idiot phone call! oK, I’m now guilty for conspiracy with Tammy also.

Even though I’m convinced that Lori killed both the children, I have no evidence that she actually was present for Tylee, but having listened again to the opening statements, I am on the fence for Tylees murder. I am leaning more towards guilty but would really love some phone evidence for Tylee eg if Tylees phone stayed in Loris apartment on the night of 8/9 September, that would do it for me.

I believe there is enough evidence in respect to JJs murder, as both witnesses put JJ in loris bedroom that night. I would imagine that it being a fairly small house, that any noise would travel eg a visitor in the night.

TBH, to me it’s not important whether she is found guilty of the actual murders of the children, as long as she is found guilty of all the conspiracies. She is one canny lady to make sure her gps was turned off and I’m hoping that some work was done on Tylees phone to compensate.

I still think there is a lot more the prosecution can do to put this to bed with the outcome Tylee,JJ, Tammy and eventually, Charles deserve.

Bolded. Easily done.
Re bold 2. remember that LV doesn't need to be physically present at time of murder ( It's in the indictment list)
Re bold 3 Summer - think it was Summer - said on 48hrs - that LV had long ago told Tylee to keep her tracking switched off on her phone. Oh yes LV is canny.
( Broader context is the generalised paranoia of many of the AVOW followers. IIRC Chad predicted humans would be micro-chipped within a few years. Cuckoo!)

@Ruminations just expressed it well with her modified crumbs & cookie jar analogy

I found that once you start to look for testimony or evidence related to one sub-topic eg Tylee's Soc security benefits or one of the indictments, you find material everywhere across multiple days, witnesses, in many forms.

Anyway, if I was listening to Closing, I'd definitely want visual charts because that jury will be weary by closing, also some people are visual learners & I couldn't tell you which of the Pros attorneys has the kind of presentation style needed to magnetise. ( I haven't heard one)
The charts don't need to be spreadsheets

eta
Just read the last line @Nikynoo about doing closing! Definitely not. Boyce would have me removed by scruff of my neck, I don't know anything about the law or Idaho codes!

 

[Nikynoo]

Bolded. Easily done.
Re bold 2. remember that LV doesn't need to be physically present at time of murder ( It's in the indictment list)
Re bold 3 Summer - think it was Summer - said on 48hrs - that LV had long ago told Tylee to keep her tracking switched off on her phone. Oh yes LV is canny.
( Broader context is the generalised paranoia of many of the AVOW followers. IIRC Chad predicted humans would be micro-chipped within a few years. Cuckoo!)

@Ruminations just expressed it well with her modified crumbs & cookie jar analogy

I found that once you start to look for testimony or evidence related to one sub-topic eg Tylee's Soc security benefits or one of the indictments, you find material everywhere across multiple days, witnesses, in many forms.

Anyway, If I was closing I'd definitely want visual charts because is that jury will be tired by closing, some people are visual learners & I couldn't tell you which of the Pros attorneys has the kind of presentation style needed to magnetise. ( I haven't heard one)
The charts don't need to be spreadsheets

I would definitely need a visual to tie everything together. It’s hard to keep it straight in your head otherwise.

 

[Ruminations]

Thank you for sharing. It is a shame how the self-serving antics and crimes of the Daybell-Vallow clan have drawn negative attention to the LDS faithful and law-abiding members.

But... if I were doing the books at LDS headquarters, I wouldn't want my bishops to yank too many recommends of tithing members, just because they are involved in something quirky. I wouldn't want to force groups of people to choose between membership in AVOW and participating in faux firesides and staying active in the LDS church. They might have totally splintered off then. Physically and financially, rather than just in theology.
MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

can I ask a question about the Alibi Lori put forward in January and again mentioned by the defence in opening statements?

The alibi states that Lori was not present when the children were killed in ACs apartment and was in Hawaii when Tammy was killed. Can anyone clarify what the point was of submitting this alibi?

Notice of Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010523 Notice of Alibi.pdf

States Response to Notice if Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/032223 Response to Defendant Notice of Alibi.pdf

 

[pizzaman12]

I posted this maybe a week or two ago but now we potentially enter the final week of the trial, where does all the "sealings" come into picture? There have only been a handful of things that have come out that I don't think were previously known and few to none were bombshells. There were quite a few. Why are those not coming out and if some of them have, why were they sealed to begin with?

By the way, the judge should be livid if the trial only goes 4ish weeks, (including jury selection, additional unexpected days off due to death & and the speed of the trial) vs 8-10 weeks needed plus jury selection.

 

[Teche]

But... there was no money to steal without killing the kids.

And it's hard to claim she didn't know they were dead for a number of reasons. She said to Melanie (on tape) that she knew exact where JJ was and didn't want Alex to know. She said to Colby "I (emphasis on I) didn't murder [your siblings]" and that he wasn't there, implying that she knew they were murdered but didn't do it. She said to Summer she deserved to move on from their murder and get married and have fun.

If she knew they were dead, she was stealing. If she didn't know they were dead, she wasn't stealing. She was being a negligent parent.

If the jury finds grand theft, they have to find conspiracy for each child they find for grand theft.

MOO

Since Tylee collected Social Security funds from her deceased father, she was not enrolled in school and was soon approaching her 18th birthday, those funds would vanish.

 

[BUF]

I posted this maybe a week or two ago but now we potentially enter the final week of the trial, where does all the "sealings" come into picture? There have only been a handful of things that have come out that I don't think were previously known and few to none were bombshells. There were quite a few. Why are those not coming out and if some of them have, why were they sealed to begin with?

By the way, the judge should be livid if the trial only goes 4ish weeks, (including jury selection, additional unexpected days off due to death & and the speed of the trial) vs 8-10 weeks needed plus jury selection.

If the prosecutions ends it’s case by the end of the week, the defense puts on their case although they have stated that they don’t have many witnesses … well that can change and there is always the possibility if Lori insists on testifying.

The case has gone quicker in part due to little if no cross of the witnesses by the defense.

Deliberation time is also included in the trial schedule, which is hard to gauge.

I hope that the jury instructions are written clear enough for this jury. Sometimes they can be very confusing causing delay and sometimes verdicts that were expected differently.

 

[BUF]

can I ask a question about the Alibi Lori put forward in January and again mentioned by the defence in opening statements?

The alibi states that Lori was not present when the children were killed in ACs apartment and was in Hawaii when Tammy was killed. Can anyone clarify what the point was of submitting this alibi?

Notice of Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010523 Notice of Alibi.pdf

States Response to Notice if Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/032223 Response to Defendant Notice of Alibi.pdf

I have no idea why they submitted an alibi statement and don’t ever remember seeing this done before.

 

[KonaHonu]

ETA
Just to make clear to anybody new to case - Lori isn't indicted for 1st degree murder Tammy, she's indicted for conspiracy to commit murder of Tammy (It's Chad who's charged with 1st degree murder Tammy)

AFAIK both Chad and Lori are indicted under the same charges including first degree murder of Tammy.

 

[mickey2942]

Since Tylee collected Social Security funds from her deceased father, she was not enrolled in school and was soon approaching her 18th birthday, those funds would vanish.

We don't know this for a fact, but I surmise that LVD pulled Tylee out of school to make her more dependent, and probably did the paperwork for her to be considered "disabled", due to her medical condition. Thus, being eligible for her father's social security past age 18, as an adult with a disability.

Pancreatitis, indeed.

 

[Tortoise]

Since Tylee collected Social Security funds from her deceased father, she was not enrolled in school and was soon approaching her 18th birthday, those funds would vanish.

Tylee was 16 when she died. Her date of birth was 24 Sep 2002.

 

[indicolite22]

I have no idea why they submitted an alibi statement and don’t ever remember seeing this done before.

JA is quoting Idaho Criminal Rule 12.1 and Idaho Code 19-519: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010523 Notice of Alibi.pdf

Idaho Criminal Rule 12.1. Notice of Alibi
If the defendant intends to rely on the defense of alibi, the defendant must comply with Idaho Code § 19-519.

Rule 12.1. Notice of Alibi | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

19-519. Notice of defense of alibi. (1) At any time after arraignment before a magistrate upon a complaint and upon written demand of the prosecuting attorney, the defendant shall serve, within ten (10) days or at such different time as the court may direct, upon the prosecuting attorney, a written notice of his intention to offer a defense of alibi. Such notice by the defendant shall state the specific place or places at which the defendant claims to have been at the time of the alleged offense and the names and addresses of the witnesses upon whom he intends to rely to establish such alibi.

More at: Section 19-519 – Idaho State Legislature

 

[wnk]

can I ask a question about the Alibi Lori put forward in January and again mentioned by the defence in opening statements?

The alibi states that Lori was not present when the children were killed in ACs apartment and was in Hawaii when Tammy was killed. Can anyone clarify what the point was of submitting this alibi?

Notice of Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010523 Notice of Alibi.pdf

States Response to Notice if Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/032223 Response to Defendant Notice of Alibi.pdf

It looks from IDAHO CODE that if the defense intends to call witnesses to establish an alibi, that document has to be submitted ahead of time. So if they hadn't submitted it, they couldn't have called the witnesses listed (Melani Boudreaux or Audrey Barattiero) to testify to LVD's whereabouts at those times.

My big question from that document, though: How does the defense know that the children were killed in AC's apartment? I haven't seen any evidence (yet) from the prosecution to establish this. There were theories buzzing around here that Tylee could have been shot on CD's property (thus the text to TD about shooting the raccoon), as well as theories about killing her on the way back to Rexburg from Yellowstone. I think the assumption was that JJ was killed at AC's apartment, but others have theorized that it was in LVD's apartment. So why would the defense state it as a fact?

- Are we going to get more evidence from the prosecution that will establish this?
- Is it a slip-up on part of the defense to claim knowledge of exactly where the murders took place?
- Is it some deeper strategy on part of the defense to claim knowledge of exactly where the murders took place? Is it perjury to lie about where the murders took place?

 

[cottonweaver]

can I ask a question about the Alibi Lori put forward in January and again mentioned by the defence in opening statements?

The alibi states that Lori was not present when the children were killed in ACs apartment and was in Hawaii when Tammy was killed. Can anyone clarify what the point was of submitting this alibi?

Notice of Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010523 Notice of Alibi.pdf

States Response to Notice if Alibi https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/032223 Response to Defendant Notice of Alibi.pdf

IDK reason why but also problematic.
She's blaming Alex ( occurred in his apartment ) but doesn't it imply she knows when & where each child died?

Also right now, problematic for the Defense to use this alibi when, over last fortnight we've heard evidence that refutes or undermines notion that all deaths happened at AC apartment. (One example of many = LV claiming JJ was with Mel G and then Mel G undermining that on the covert recording ' why did you tell LE that JJ was with me. Another example is that AC is tracked to MG's townhome in early hrs of T's murder, according to State's theory of the case)

Notice of Alibi:
'Lori Vallow was in her own apartment in Rexburg, Idaho, when J.J. Vallow and Tylee Ryan died in the apartment of Alex Cox in Rexburg, Idaho. Defendant was with Melanie Gibb, David Warwick, and/or Chad Daybell.'

And state arguing that she's charged with murder as ' a principal' in their response ( re JJ & T murders) & they add that she doesn't need an alibi for Tammy, they say ' misplaced' ( Here Defense had Audrey & Melani as witnesses of LV being in Hawaii. Seems redundant )

 

[Shadowtrix]

Re: Lori's alibi, if she herself doesn't get on the stand and say she somehow heard from 'someone else' who was there, or found out her kids died in Alex's apartment, I don't see any way that alibi stands in such a way that doesn't imply she knew exactly when and where the kids were killed for the simple fact that she knew they were going to be killed/participated in it or did it herself. But I still don't see it likely she will take the stand.

 

[indicolite22]

By a criminal defense attorney and TV legal analyst:

Jury certainly knows that #ChadDaybell was conniving, manipulating and credible. The problem is they also now know that #LoriVallow was not just under his spell as a follower, but was carrying the mantle and recruiting others into their doom's day cult. There are big hurdles for the defense to overcome in an endeavor to cast doubt on the prosecution's case i.e., two confession calls by Lori, evidence from AZ murder of Charles as direct proof that Alex kills for her; the prayer by Chad and Lori thanking Alex for doing things they can't repay; Alex being her warrior/protector; Alex's fingerprints on JJ's bag...Lori is charged not just with murder but conspiracy to murder. While juries typically don't like connecting dots (lots to connect here), the evidence is compelling and places Lori's dot very close to the bad guys' dots (Chad and Alex). #LoriVallowTrial

https://twitter.com/x/status/1652699728319217668