ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[RickshawFan]

The penalty for grand theft in Idaho is up to 20 years in prison but your'e right. I don't see her doing hard time for what is probably under $10000 she unlawfully collected. She has already been in jail for almost 3.5 years. I suspected she would get less that 5 years and walk out within a month or two.

ETA: When I say "walk out" I mean being frog-walked by a Maricopa County sheriff deputy.

Wasn't it $5k-ish a month that she unlawfully collected?

 

[indicolite22]

Great analogy.
The more evidence I hear the more I believe that this was planned murders and it started with Charles. A divorce would have been costly and ugly and it would have exposed the affair. They got away with it so they did it again with Tammy. They got insurance money from Tammy, thought they were getting it from Charles. Chad & Lori didn't have jobs and were living the life in Hawaii on the kid's social security all the while knowing Tylee & JJ were murdered and buried in Chad's yard. It was justified by the kids being 'dark'. I think all that talk was a ruse.

They explicitly told witnesses that divorces were out of the question. Lori said that she couldn't go through yet another divorce and Chad couldn't divorce Tammy because he would lose some of his god-like privileges if he did.

 

[indicolite22]

Wasn't it $5k-ish a month that she unlawfully collected?

IIRC, she unlawfully collected about $22k before the payments stopped because the children couldn't be found.

 

[TigerLou]

From your link...

"And, what's perhaps most jarring, it's said there is still a small 'underground' sect who refuse to believe Daybell - once viewed as a nothing more than a weird but 'faithful' follower of Christ - is guilty."

IMO... this is worse than jarring.

Sure—but they went “underground” because the majority think he’s nuts. IMO, from what I hear anyway.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think the dates they went to the temple surrounding the dates of the deaths is significant.

They were claiming to basically have this extra enlightenment and communication with God. LDS often go to to the temple to pray or seek guidance or peace in their lives. This is a significant thing for us. When I read the corresponding dates of their temple attendance to the dates of the deaths I immediately thought they used that as justification for themselves. They probably convinced AC of this. Especially since they were claiming to have seen Jesus and Moroni there.

Also, temples are places that are holy to us, so people actively out committing murder should never be stepping foot through that door. Of course they should also not be lying in their interviews to get the recommends to go either. We believe our temples are literal houses of God (not that He actually lives there, we don’t believe that—but we want them to be places worthy of Him should he want to be there. I’m half asleep so I’m not sure I worded that well.)

The temple is a very reverent place, you won’t find a lot of noise. People talk in quiet voices or whispers. There is a lot of quiet prayer or self reflection, thoughtfulness. Sometimes I might go with a group of friends while my husband has to work but once there, it is very much not a social outing or gathering. The temple is probably the most modest place I’ve been, and a hookup there would be very offensive to its existence.

You can Google Rexburg LDS temple inside images. It will show you pretty much all the rooms inside. When the temples are built they are opened to the public for awhile before they are dedicated and become operational so there are media pictures and articles about each one from local media that tour them in addition to images the church releases.

I tend to think a jury of LDS peers would understand the significance of the temple attendance corresponding to the crimes.

very helpful info, thanks

Also, did you hear that testimony where she claimed ( to Mel Gibb & possibly others) that she'd met with Chad in the temple with Moroni and Jesus in the same room? That was in Gilbert AZ according to MG ( I just looked it up.Looks like it was Nov 16 2018 from the list attached )

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650587322487046144

 

[Gut_feeling]

LB did not indicate if Chad's son Garth would be testifying. We don't know when in the evening of Oct 18 Garth left for work and when he arrived home at night. On Sept 18 Alex's phone was in the vicinity of Chad's home roughly between 10pm and midnight. Chad exchanged messages with Lori at around 11:30. It seems possible that Alex took an active part in Tammy's murder and that she was dead by midnight. Chad had to wait until morning before raising the alarm.

Could Alex have been serving as a "lookout" to let Chad know when Garth's car passed (since Garth was supposed to be working that night at the haunted house?)

 

[indicolite22]

From your link...

"And, what's perhaps most jarring, it's said there is still a small 'underground' sect who refuse to believe Daybell - once viewed as a nothing more than a weird but 'faithful' follower of Christ - is guilty."

IMO... this is worse than jarring.

Chad's core group who believed in zombies was small and wasn't based in Idaho. Perhaps some locals were familiar with his teaching of multiple probations and dark/light ratings. Most of his supporters have turned against him after the discovery of the children, including the leadership of AVOW. I'm not sure where the remaining supporters turned to, but there are other similar groups with leaders (like Chad's friends JR and ES) who haven't crossed the line of criminality. (all IMO)

 

[indicolite22]

Could Alex have been serving as a "lookout" to let Chad know when Garth's car passed (since Garth was supposed to be working that night at the haunted house?)

Chad probably saw Garth leaving and he likely knew for how long he would be gone (several hours). Alex was free to move in although he could have been spotted by neighbors.

 

[TigerLou]

very helpful info, thanks

Also, did you hear that testimony where she claimed ( to Mel Gibb & possibly others) that she'd met with Chad in the temple with Moroni and Jesus in the same room? That was in Gilbert AZ according to MG ( I just looked it up.Looks like it was Nov 16 2018 from the list attached )

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650587322487046144

Yeah, heard that testimony.

They must’ve been fairly quiet in their “teachings” to not get the attention of their local leaders because those things would’ve gotten their temple recs pulled.

 

[Teche]

I think the dates they went to the temple surrounding the dates of the deaths is significant.

They were claiming to basically have this extra enlightenment and communication with God. LDS often go to to the temple to pray or seek guidance or peace in their lives. This is a significant thing for us. When I read the corresponding dates of their temple attendance to the dates of the deaths I immediately thought they used that as justification for themselves. They probably convinced AC of this. Especially since they were claiming to have seen Jesus and Moroni there.

Also, temples are places that are holy to us, so people actively out committing murder should never be stepping foot through that door. Of course they should also not be lying in their interviews to get the recommends to go either. We believe our temples are literal houses of God (not that He actually lives there, we don’t believe that—but we want them to be places worthy of Him should he want to be there. I’m half asleep so I’m not sure I worded that well.)

The temple is a very reverent place, you won’t find a lot of noise. People talk in quiet voices or whispers. There is a lot of quiet prayer or self reflection, thoughtfulness. Sometimes I might go with a group of friends while my husband has to work but once there, it is very much not a social outing or gathering. The temple is probably the most modest place I’ve been, and a hookup there would be very offensive to its existence.

You can Google Rexburg LDS temple inside images. It will show you pretty much all the rooms inside. When the temples are built they are opened to the public for awhile before they are dedicated and become operational so there are media pictures and articles about each one from local media that tour them in addition to images the church releases.

I tend to think a jury of LDS peers would understand the significance of the temple attendance corresponding to the crimes.

Thank you for sharing. It is a shame how the self-serving antics and crimes of the Daybell-Vallow clan have drawn negative attention to the LDS faithful and law-abiding members.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Please excuse me if this has been covered (I've unfortunately not been able to follow the trial as closely as I would have liked).
Has the video of Lori, Chad & Alex bringing all of the childrens belongings to the storage unit been shown to the jury?

 

[indicolite22]

Several opinions by legal professionals in this article:

Flesh and Blood: Ghastly Evidence Might Doom Lori Vallow

Gut-wrenching revelations will likely weigh heavily on jurors when they have to decide if Vallow was part of a conspiracy to kill her 7-year-old son and 16-year-old daughter.

www.thedailybeast.com

Former federal prosecutor Neama Rahmani said the defense is sure to try to blame Daybell or Cox for the killings—but jurors weighing Vallow’s fate may not be able to look past the ghastliness of the evidence.

“The shock and awe of the prosecution’s case clinched a guilty verdict. The jurors won’t be able to look past JJ’s asphyxiation or Tyler’s dismemberment,” Rahmani said. “Adding Lori’s bizarre behavior when her children were missing and her own family members’ disbelief in her innocence, we are well on our way to a guilty verdict.”

 

[fred&edna]

Sure—but they went “underground” because the majority think he’s nuts. IMO, from what I hear anyway.

My worry is this underground sect is as weird as Chad & Lori... and look what Chad & Lori did.

 

[cottonweaver]

Please excuse me if this has been covered (I've unfortunately not been able to follow the trial as closely as I would have liked).
Has the video of Lori, Chad & Alex bringing all of the childrens belongings to the storage unit been shown to the jury?

Have not seen/ heard that yet. I don't think they have shown photos of the kids' belongings left in storage either.
They have presented the cctv clips of L & C bringing in Jeep tyre etc & some other contents

They need to bring out the kids photo blanket and hang it in the jury room!

 

[Ruminations]

I don't know whether you are playing semantics games, or just didn't read all of my post.

The point I made was that something can be important, even if it's technically not required. And when something THAT important -- the fact that there's no explicit evidence of a conspiracy, or of her doing part of a murder - is missing from the evidence, then I think it is going to naturally raise questions and doubts as to whether she was personally involved in the murders.

It may not matter to YOU that we are missing direct evidence of Lori conspiring or murdering. And that's okay that people see it different ways. But it might matter to a juror or three. They may look at all the evidence against Alex and Chad murdering, then see Lori missing, and say, "Wait, where's the beef when it comes to Lori?? Are we sure she wasn't just deceived, and unaware?" I think this case is straddling that line (and the expert on the video, the law professor, shares my concerns, so its not just me; in fact, the law prof says the case against Lori at this point has NOT met b-a-r-d criteria).

What is this law professor's prediction score so far?

MOO

---------------------

Juries are unpredictable. Nothing is guaranteed.

This particular case needs a lot of dots connected. Some of them are subtle- like a flurry of meta-data of cellular communication without content. This kind of circumstantial evidence is more subtle than classic examples: seeing cookie crumbs all over a child's face, say.

It's more like, one crumb by the jar. The jar was put away oriented a different way. One crumb on the child's bed spread. One washcloth dirty with crumbs buried in the hamper. A mismatched washcloth hung in its place.

I think the prosecution has been showing all those circumstantial elements, which alone are not enough to prove a case. It's the totality of evidence that proves the case.

One oft-reported observation of the jury is that they are taking the job seriously. That would be necessary to pull all the evidence together.

There are sensational pieces of evidence, but afaik, there is no one thing that convicts Lori. (If it were Lori's handprint and pinky print found, there would be. We haven't seen all the evidence yet, so we may learn more.) That does not mean she is not convictable. It also is not the fault of the prosecution if the evidence happens to be circumstantial evidence in pieces that only lead to "beyond a reasonable doubt" when considered in whole rather than individually.

I understand the anxiety- hoping for justice and knowing that it might not come because- juries. It's the best system I know of, but it is not predictable or perfect.

But I really do believe the prosecution is meeting the burden of proof. It is a difficult and complex universe of evidence to present. They scored a huge victory in being allowed to present that there appeared to be a thwarted plan to collect insurance $$$, and a successful plan to collect SS $$$, when Charles was murdered.I agree with the judge that it helps prove the case rather than simply shows Lori's bad character.

Bringing in Charles' murder makes the whole case easier to grasp. However, even without it, I think the prosecution, with a crumb here and a hidden washcloth there, is on track to meet the burden for every charge.

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

No, that doesn't help. Wish it did. But death of CV is not what she is on trial for, and the motive for his death certainly doesn't apply in this case. She didn't stand to gain back that $1.000,000 if her kids died.

No, but she gained nearly 4k a month in income from that murder.

MOO

 

[887sMtreme]

Who is guilty of murdering who and when is my opinion, of course.
I'm assuming that the prosecution will hammer, hard, on brother Alex' sick relationship w Lori.

At least some jurors will put together that, even with a lack of hard, specific "smoking gun" evidence of Lori's exact role in their deaths,

1. her children were GONE
2. she never reported them missing
3. lied repeatedly to various people about where they might be
4. continued to receive their SS and other benefits to the tune of around $4,000/month
5. abandoned her apartment overnight and scarpered to Hawaii when LE came around for welfare checks on her children

Then, her children's bodies were found on her new husband's property where:

1. Lori's brother Alex (who murdered CV, Lori's husband #4) attempted to murder Tammy as she unloaded groceries by the house
2. Brother Alex, who killed her children, (one by suffocation and one who was partially dismembered and burned -- CoD unknown), disposed of the bodies of her murdered children (possibly with Chad's assistance?)
3. Chad murdered Tammy at a time when her brother Alex' phone was pinging not so very far away
4. Lori was online ordering a wedding ring on her 4th husband's CV's account (the husband murdered by brother Alex) BEFORE Chad, husband #5, murdered his wife (I think that's the correct time timeline and details for the wedding ring)

Moving right along:

1. Just over two weeks after Chad murdered (possibly w/Lori's brother Alex' assistance) and buried wife #1, Chad and Lori married in Hawaii.
2. Chad/Lori at various times told various people they had no children/were "empty nesters", including the landlady in Hawaii
3. On an existential note, no one, not one person, has reported that Lori ever grieved her children's deaths.

It's...a lot.

I hope it’s enough.

 

[BUF]

Have not seen/ heard that yet. I don't think they have shown photos of the kids' belongings left in storage either.
They have presented the cctv clips of L & C bringing in Jeep tyre etc & some other contents

They need to bring out the kids photo blanket and hang it in the jury room!

Yeah, the kids photo blanket … it would just validate Kay’s testimony how Lori was a loving mother until she met Chad. There would be no reason to put this photo blanket and the other kids things in a storage unit and then disappear. She rented that unit under Lori Ryan and there is video of her going in and out of there.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I hope it’s enough.

If she's so innocent, you would think she would have promptly divorced the man with HER children buried in HIS backyard. No? Food for jury thought. JMO

 

[887sMtreme]

Could Alex have been serving as a "lookout" to let Chad know when Garth's car passed (since Garth was supposed to be working that night at the haunted house?)

I had never thought of that. Very possible!