Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #60

[windrower]

Another thing I find odd is that even though Chad increased Tammy's life insurance policy just days before she died -- the insurer apparently did not request a toxicology report. From what I understand, if the insured person dies within two years of taking out (or significantly increasing) a policy, the insurance company requires a toxicology report or some type of investigation.

That's a big red flag.

You’d think more questions would have been asked, maybe some were? Is there any publication available that has information on the Daybell insurance payout?

Maybe a sympathetic insurance agent helped push the payment through? Given that Tammy was party to the increase, and well, you know, Chad was such an upstanding member of the community. (not)

 

[Chelly]

Another thing I find odd is that even though Chad increased Tammy's life insurance policy just days before she died -- the insurer apparently did not request a toxicology report. From what I understand, if the insured person dies within two years of taking out (or significantly increasing) a policy, the insurance company requires a toxicology report or some type of investigation.

That's a big red flag.

I didn't know that. Is this true of all insurers?

 

[887sMtreme]

You mean when he knocked the picture of Jesus off the refrigerator? That was on his last day. To Lori he was exhibiting zombie-like behavior (sitting still in front of TV, being more articulate than usual) a few days before that. But his status likely started shifting much earlier. We know that Chad and Lori discussed his death percentage back in July.

JJ *was* off his meds, but we have only Lori’s word for his behavior that night. I suspect it was a lie. Since it was a new apartment, there might not have been any dust to disturb, but did PE look for that? Probably not, or we’d have heard about it — though it’s my understanding the state has a boatload more evidence against these two creatures than we know about. Can’t wait to hear it. Hurry, November!

 

[sassyblue]

Hi @Niner, LV's Madison misdeamor case has been stayed also as of 5/28:

• 05/28/2021 Order Staying Case

But so far her hearing dates have not been vacated, they might be moved as we get closer:
08/17/2021 Pre-trial Conference

Judicial Officer
Mallard, Michelle Radford

Hearing Time
10:00 AM

For Chad, in the Fremont murder case the next hearing is:

09/30/2021 Pre Trial

Judicial Officer
Boyce (District), Steven

Hearing Time
9:30 AM

The Fremont Concealment case has no hearings scheduled at this time. Hope this helps!

Here's the post with the dates, Niner.

 

[altojack]

JJ *was* off his meds, but we have only Lori’s word for his behavior that night. I suspect it was a lie. Since it was a new apartment, there might not have been any dust to disturb, but did PE look for that? Probably not, or we’d have heard about it — though it’s my understanding the state has a boatload more evidence against these two creatures than we know about. Can’t wait to hear it. Hurry, November!

The morning that JJ was allegedly climbing up on the cabinet tops DW made comment afterwards that he couldn't see any scuffs to indicate that JJ actually ever did climb up.

You mentioning, new apartment, and dust particles or lack of, reminded me of DW saying the above.
Was this in a court report? I can't remember where I saw this.

 

[SleuthD-o-doubleg]

Local update: the 4th of July is being observed today so some offices/public services are closed for today. So MM is not at the women’s detention center today

 

[Ruminations]

Obviously, it did raise the suspicions of some LE officers, but I still can't figure out why they initially ruled it as "self defense." With evidence like that, I wonder why they didn't do an in-depth investigation at that point.

I might be remembering wrong, but wasn't there an officer who was friends/acquaintances with CD/LVD?

Yes. Jason Mow. And by his own words, he was part of bringing the band together.

 

[Ruminations]

Well, you quoted me, so as you must be able to see, I wrote 'allegedly' in small case, not all caps.

Until charges are proven in court, they remain accusations/ allegations. That is the common understanding in the justice system, and is reflected in the wording in all the news coverage.

For the rest, I was not intending to debate the nature of true, pure, undying love vs the many other reasons people get married, but just to point out that, for eg, it does not appear Lori married her husbands (including Chad) for the express purpose of bumping them off and claiming their life insurance.

There are maybe a couple of cases of people doing that, it is very rare. Mostly, people kill their spouses after the marriage sours, they give it a go first. Over 2,000 people murder their spouses per year in the US
Murders by Intimate Partners Are on the Rise, Study Finds (Published 2019)
it's not like Chad and Lori are unique.

It's the alleged murders of the children that make this case unusual, and all the, IMO, imaginative plot enhancements are taking focus away from that aspect of the case.

Agreed. There is no reason to believe Lori planned to kill anyone she was presently marrying at the time of marriage.

There is some evidence, OTOH, that she married numbers 4&5 with expectations that they would help her with her problems with 3&4, respectively. Possibly the help was implicitly or explicitly meant to include murder.

She seemed to enter those marriages (4&5) as a victim of the marriage she left/was in.

 

[887sMtreme]

You mean when he knocked the picture of Jesus off the refrigerator? That was on his last day. To Lori he was exhibiting zombie-like behavior (sitting still in front of TV, being more articulate than usual) a few days before that. But his status likely started shifting much earlier. We know that Chad and Lori discussed his death percentage back in July.

JJ *was* off his meds, but we have only Lori’s word for his behavior that night. I suspect it was a lie. Since it was a new apartment, there might not have been any dust to disturb, but did PE look for that? Probably not, or we’d have heard about it — though it’s my understanding the state has a boatload more evidence against these two creatures than we know about. Can’t wait to hear it. Hurry, November!

The morning that JJ was allegedly climbing up on the cabinet tops DW made comment afterwards that he couldn't see any scuffs to indicate that JJ actually ever did climb up.

You mentioning, new apartment, and dust particles or lack of, reminded me of DW saying the above.
Was this in a court report? I can't remember where I saw this.

Thanks! I can’t remember where I got my details, let alone where to track DW’s, but I do remember his saying that.

Edited to add: Was it morning and not night when JJ was supposed to have done all that climbing? Sorry if I recalled that wrong.

 

[MTW2011]

I didn't know that. Is this true of all insurers?

I’m not sure….from what I’ve researched this seems to be highly dependent on the insurer and even sometimes the specific contract (as well as the state where the death occurred due to varying local/state laws and regulations)
I’m not sure such a blanket statement does not accurately cover all life insurance providers.

sources - (some of these mention only autopsies but from everything I can find this language covers autopsies, toxicology reports, further investigative techniques employed to study cause of death…)
“There is no law that states an autopsy must be performed when someone dies.
If an insurer denies a claim such as the one discussed here they’re acting in bad faith to the beneficiary. Insurer’s know that there is a burden of proof that falls on the person making the claim, and not on the insurer. The burden of proof means that the beneficiary must prove the death circumstances are not excluded under the policy’s Exclusions Clause. Exclusions include the use of prescribed medications, non-prescribed drugs and intoxication.

These exclusions cannot be determined if there was no autopsy, unless there was a toxicology exam. But there are issues with the accuracy of toxicology exams that are performed without a full autopsy and are the least reliable type. This can be proven.

Each state has a different definition of the burden of proof. Some are very restrictive and some are very lax. Insurers who deny claims on this basis alone subject themselves to severe penalties if it turns-out they never intended to pay the claim and simply put an undue burden on the beneficiary”
From https://cflid.com/life-insurance-claim-denied-because-no-autopsy/

this example is from a letter from the North Carolina Dept of Insurance, and it mentions how in certain scenarios regarding death, the medical examiner has jurisdiction over the investigation, and if they take jurisdiction over the death then they make the decision(s) regarding any further investigation and/or testing….which whatever results are from those the insurance company can choose to rely upon and make their decision for a claim based on all, some, or none of that. And IMOO since we know that medical examiners and autopsies being done can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, I think (while this source only applies to NC highlights the major differences that can vary from state to state as well as from insurance provider to provider
Link - https://www.ncdoi.gov/media/1511/open

 

[HistoryNut]

Another thing I find odd is that even though Chad increased Tammy's life insurance policy just days before she died -- the insurer apparently did not request a toxicology report. From what I understand, if the insured person dies within two years of taking out (or significantly increasing) a policy, the insurance company requires a toxicology report or some type of investigation.

That's a big red flag.

Another thing I find odd is that even though Chad increased Tammy's life insurance policy just days before she died -- the insurer apparently did not request a toxicology report. From what I understand, if the insured person dies within two years of taking out (or significantly increasing) a policy, the insurance company requires a toxicology report or some type of investigation.

That's a big red flag.

 

[HistoryNut]

I thought I read that he had several life insurance policies on Tammy, not just one, but I also find it strange that the policies were paid without a stated cause of death. Does anyone know if he is using this money to pay for his defense attorney?

 

[altojack]

JJ *was* off his meds, but we have only Lori’s word for his behavior that night. I suspect it was a lie. Since it was a new apartment, there might not have been any dust to disturb, but did PE look for that? Probably not, or we’d have heard about it — though it’s my understanding the state has a boatload more evidence against these two creatures than we know about. Can’t wait to hear it. Hurry, November!


Thanks! I can’t remember where I got my details, let alone where to track DW’s, but I do remember his saying that.

Edited to add: Was it morning and not night when JJ was supposed to have done all that climbing? Sorry if I recalled that wrong.

I wish I could find where I saw this, but, it was definitely in the morning.

As I remember it, no link so JMO:

DW got up and when he went to the kitchen he asked where JJ was because he wanted to say goodbye to him. LVD told DW that she had to call Alex because of the climbing and knocking the picture of Jesus off the fridge/freezer.

 

[LinasK]

Can anyone theorize on how CD and LVD poisoned and killed AC from Hawaii?

I tend to believe the M.E. report. It makes sense to me. JMO

Have his wife Zulema do it, she wasn't in Hawaii and she was friends with Lori.

 

[LinasK]

This is probably a case of me missing a detail early on, but this, from the Affidavit,

It was not until emergency personnel began life saving measures that they saw blood coming from Charles’ body​

makes me think differently about LE cleaning up CV's blood at the scene. It always sounded like they were being overly helpful to AC & LVD, and altering evidence in doing so. But since bleeding started when EMTs began CPR, it sounds like it raised LE's suspicions right then. And once the body was moved, they cleaned the area to check for other evidence - which they found in the form of a "defect in the floor." JMO, but it seems much less solicitous than how I initially perceived it.

It's not normal for LE to be cleaning up blood in any crime scene. Usually that's left up to the victim's family to do so afterwards, and I've seen companies that specialize in blood removal from crime scenes and such.

 

[LinasK]

I don't quite see why L&C's initial reaction would have been to panic like that. Their other actions consistently reflect a belief that they're so superior they can talk their way out of anything, and AC was part of the inner circle, not just another zombie. Even if they were concerned, it doesn't seem like their first reaction would be "OMG they're about to find out OMG go kill yourself."

No, but he's the hit man, the loose end that needed to be disposed of, like when Jack Ruby was sent to kill Lee Harvey Oswald.

 

[LinasK]

Interesting- I had no idea. My research- conducted over at least 10 minutes- shows that methanol is not as intoxicating as ethanol- but is cheaper and makes convincing counterfeit whiskies for less $$$.

I don’t have reason to believe Alex (Joe, Tylee, J.J. or Tammy) drank alcohol- especially not day to day at home. So administration would have to be by means other than murderous mock tail. And dosed correctly. Alex could have forced himself and the children - but Tammy?

In any case, if it were a poison, I am sure one of the murderers googled it- pointing investigators/ME’s in the right direction. If you google SS implications of murder- the meaning of the weather forecast for your body disposal plans- never turn off location, and think it is smart to introduce your new burner phone number with, “Hi it’s Ruminations,” while apparently communicating with a device your previous number communicated with, you are not going to draw the line on internet searches for how to murder by Visine or methanol.

I understand why Alex’s death is very hard to accept as natural- and while I do accept it I could flip in an instant. But it is unrealistic to think this particular band of criminals was able to find a poison without leaving a trail. If Alex was poisoned- LE already knows IMO.

I bet somebody wishes he googled “typical raccoon behavior.”

MOO

Who said that it had to be limited to drinking Visine eye drops or Methanol? I watched a true crime show where this angel of death nurse Oliver O'Quinn killed a female friend by giving her an injection, telling her that he was treating her for migraines.

 

[LinasK]

It sounds like Z lied about her relationship with Lori according to the last probable cause….and what an odd thing for Z to ask after her husband just died…

But then, things changed — Pastenes wanted officers to leave her home. She asked detectives if she was considered a suspect in Cox’s death, which they denied.


Police Release New Details Related To Alex Cox's Death In Vallow/Daybell Case

Sounds fishier and fishier. Why did she want police to leave???

 

[nyvictoria]

He changed. LVD even said that. The supposed kitchen incident. JMO

Yes and niece Melani confirmed it, as well, telling (IIRC) IP that children can suddenly turn dark.

The whole lot of them belong behind bars. It’s appalling that anyone involved has been given immunity.

 

[LinasK]

In the very beginning of this case........... we were all over this issue. But truthfully, nothing much came up and lots and lots of people were trying to "follow the money"... As more and more became clear, the money was just coming from insurance policies and SS payments. "Always a Cox...screw the government"

Not sure what you mean by "just coming"? Life Insurance is often a motive for murder.