Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, arrested* #20

[FindingJoLee]

Judging by Lori's niece, who apparently had a happy marriage, Lori can convince people of most bizarre things. It would appear Melani was somehow brainwashed to divorce her husband, marry some other guy, and now apparently is trying to get her kids back-good luck with that. Chad was also a master of convincing people to do what he wanted by claiming visions and talks with spirits. They are two of a kind as far as I am concerned.

No one would really even need to guess how charming Lori acts towards others. Look no further than her attempt to schmooze the police officer after Charles was shot. Turn the sound off, and watch the interaction. Is that REALLY a police officer interviewing a woman about her husband's murder, just moments ago??? I sincerely hope that the officer was using a police technique to keep the conversation going because otherwise, I fully expected that conversation was going to end with "So now that you're single, would you like to grab a bite to eat when I get off?"

I keep hearing that this group had no charismatic leaders, but it certainly has charismatic members.

 

[Moonbeam456]

I feel like the Lori's niece is the one who's going to break down eventually and tell what happened to the kids. I feel she's the weakest link in this long crazy chain.

 

[LHS]

Do you know if she ever dealt with Tammy on those business issues, or just Chad.

She told me that Tammy was more behind the scenes stuff.. the heart of the business, but Chad was the face of the business and she only ever dealt with Chad even though she had met Tammy.

 

[tresir2012]

Sealing is a family linking... it can be children sealed to their parents, or spouses sealed together. So far today we have only discussed sealing regarding spouses. But yes Joseph was sealed to his parents who were in turn sealed to his grandparents. That is how families are linked eternally in our beliefs. I haven't seen anything about a sealing to Joseph Smith, even though that would be obvious to any LDS person... but most LDS people do not believe that we live multiple lives, and that's where it would be disbelieved by most.

This link partly explains what Lori believed. Would have to believe that Chad thought this also.

Documents: Lori Vallow claims she was 'god preparing for second coming of Christ'
"Charles said during a phone call in late January that Lori told him she is a "translated being who cannot taste death sent by god to lead the 144,000 into the Millennium".

"Mother believes that she is receiving spiritual revelations and visions to help her gather and prepare those chosen to live in the New Jerusalem after the Great War as prophesied in the Book of Revelations" read a portion of the documents.

Charles says in the documents that Lori threatened him, telling him she was a God preparing for christ's second coming in July 2020, and if he got in her way, she would murder him. Charles later got an Order of Protection."

There are a lot of links that says she believes she is sealed to the prophet Moroni, here is one -

Mom Of Missing Idaho Kids Believes She's A Reincarnated God Chosen To Aid In Christ's Second Coming, Dead Husband Claimed

“Mother [Lori Vallow] has recently become infatuated at times obsessive about near death experiences and spiritual visions,” the court documents atate. “Mother has told father [Charles Vallow] that she is sealed [eternally married] to the ancient Book of Mormon prophet Moroni and that she has lived numerous lives on numerous planets prior to this current life.”

Vallow Daybell also allegedly believed she was the “natural grandmother” to Mormon founder Joseph Smith Jr. in a past life and believed she “cannot taste death” because she was sent by God to lead 144,000 into the Millennium.

“On January 29, 2019, during a phone conversation between the parties and after their physical separation, Mother informed Father that she was a God assigned to carry out the work of the 144,000 at Christ’s second coming in July 2020 and that if Father got in her way of her mission she would murder him,” the court documents state.

While on a business trip, Charles Vallow also reported that his wife called him and told him that she “would kill him upon his return home and had an angel there to help her dispose of the body.”

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I'm going to guess no, but curious if @LHS indicates their friend had a different experience. As a rule, if a publisher expects an author to pay them money for virtually anything, run far and run fast. The publisher's profit should come from your book selling well and them taking a cut of those profits for their investment. (Your investment was the time to write the book). There have long been companies out there (called "vanity publishers") that take advantage of naive authors in this regard.

The problem with that rule which used to be straightforward is that self-publishing has changed things because if you're self-publishing you're both the publisher and the author. There are plenty of scam artists working that side of the fence now too and it isn't as straightforward to decide what makes sense.

Yeah, but wasn't this little Springhill Co more of a self-publishing set-up. I would think someone had to do something up-front too.

 

[jjenny]

Umm. Nope. There have been others who have done the same thing since the beginning of time. MOO

By "two of a kind" I meant that Chad and Lori are similar to each other, not that they are unique and different from any other individual.

 

[utahobserver]

Hi, a newbie here.

Have lurked from almost the beginning in this thread. But came for reasons that may be slightly different.

By inclination, I'm not a sleuther. I'll probably never go to any other WS threads. I came here because I noticed there was talk about Chad Daybell.

I perked up my ears on this case because over a decade ago I had just finished writing a series of academic papers on Mormon last days beliefs/speculations/ideas, particularly on how these beliefs might relate to current-day politics and ideas about particular places within the world. I happened to notice that Daybell was apparently just beginning to be involved in this much older genre. One of my most enlightening tasks (and discouraging at the same time, as someone who has never been into this stuff), was to compare LDS novels about the end times to evangelical Christian novels about the same topic (particularly the Left Behind series).

I never ended up reading Daybell, as that particular episode of my academic career ended just before I noticed his involvement in these kinds of things. I had thought that the most significant thing that would emerge from this genre was the election of Chris Stewart as a US congressperson from Utah. Stewart, unlike Daybell, was generally accepted within mainstream Mormonism (he had the imprimatur of Deseret Book, for example) and his series of novels about the last days seems to have been one of the things (in addition to his Air Force career) that put him on the map for election from Utah. Unfortunately, this Daybell case now is a second case where these last-days writings for an LDS audience helped to propel someone to greater fame.

I will stress that I am not an insider in this particular missing-children/etc case. My interest comes from three things:

a) being someone with social science/humanistic training who has long been interested in applying this training to understanding the LDS community

b) being an active LDS member

c) having some proximity to many of the places involved through life experience (Arizona, Utah, Hawaii, Idaho), though nothing that would give me any personal insight into the people involved in this case

I've been impressed by the discussion here on Websleuths, particularly in sorting out some of the distinctive LDS elements that may provide context to the case. I've seen many discussions elsewhere in which people on the differing sides of the LDS/non-LDS divide are unable to productively listen and talk to each other. Thankfully, that hasn't been the case here.

I do occasionally have a slightly different perspective than some of the other LDS commenters here, and so while I don't expect to be a frequent commenter, there are some things that have been floating around the discussion (esp. today) that I'd like to give my perspective on. So if you're not interested in this type of perspective, please just ignore me from now on.

Welcome, welcome, welcome. We recognized early on that discussing LDS beliefs was unavoidable, but I think we've done a terrific job of deeply respecting members beliefs and perspectives. It's a great group.

 

[Portiz34]

just saw something about Lyda Southard posted and how eerily similar this case is-

 

[jjenny]

No one would really even need to guess how charming Lori acts towards others. Look no further than her attempt to schmooze the police officer after Charles was shot. Turn the sound off, and watch the interaction. Is that REALLY a police officer interviewing a woman about her husband's murder, just moments ago??? I sincerely hope that the officer was using a police technique to keep the conversation going because otherwise, I fully expected that conversation was going to end with "So now that you're single, would you like to grab a bite to eat when I get off?"

I keep hearing that this group had no charismatic leaders, but it certainly has charismatic members.

I kind of got the same feeling-Lori was even laughing at some point.

 

[Busymom4]

Since this Parret gentleman has been quoted in MSM and his postings, is anyone there a member here too that can post his recent update for the group. I saw an update but it is not MSM for the source..... but wow!! Chad has got him and probably many others Hook line and sinker. It's actually scary to think about the kind of people supporting these 2..... the "media hype" would die down If they would just do as the law has asked and produce the children..... there is a part of me that really starts wondering if these 2 think this is all a game and they are orchestrating it for the world to see, to prove they are elevated and transcendent beings.... and maybe a book/ movie deal...... could they really be that twisted!!!??!!! There seems to be no logical explanation for their actions and maybe that's the problem ....logic......

 

[LDS social scientist]

One of the larger questions that's been running throughout this thread are whether Chad/Lori/AVOW/etc. are sincere in their beliefs or have been wholly motivated by sex/money. I have no way to judge this in this particular case, but I generally try to assume people claiming religious faith are sincere until proven otherwise.

If we run with the sincerity assumption for the time being, the question immediately arises as to how Chad and Lori and like-minded others have been able to reconcile their non-orthodox beliefs (speaking in an LDS context) with the more mainstream LDS community in which much of their lives are spent, a community that emphasizes following clearly identified and authorized leaders?

The point I want to emphasize here has already been made and discussed, and it's not different from those motivating other types of "cultish" actions elsewhere, but I want to emphasize why LDS members may be particularly susceptible to it. This is the idea of "chosenness."

In a sense, elements of chosenness run throughout all of Christianity, but from my perspective the sense of chosenness is heightened within Mormonism. Very early on in Mormonism, a sense of literal belonging to Israelite tribes developed, supported by narratives such as the idea that only those who had "believing blood" would accept the LDS gospel. Later a sense of "adoption" into one of the twelve tribes replaced the strong belief in literal blood lineage. But the idea of many early Mormons, and one that still exists to some degree within mainstream Mormonism, is that God has put you here in your particular time/place context (particularly as a believer in the church) for a reason.

Early on, this sense of chosenness (and the possible conceit that comes through belief that one's own fate is more important to God than any other random human being) was easy to maintain, with relatively few members of the church and a second coming of Jesus expected within one's lifetime. But nearly 200 years (after the beginning of the church) and 16+ million members later, with no Second Coming having occurred, this sense of chosenness becomes harder to sustain. So, in my opinion, I think some church members seek other outlets to maintain a sense of chosenness. Thus we see, as the EIN video portrayed, it's some of the members who are "most Mormon" who are most susceptible to the idea that there might be additional knowledge out there available only to a relatively select few, or who can imagine themselves as participating in the vanguard of something new, big, and important.

(MOO) ... to be continued ...

 

[BigAl16]

Yeah, but wasn't this little Springhill Co more of a self-publishing set-up. I would think someone had to do something up-front too.

Even little publishing companies, at least if they aren't scammers, aren't going to charge their authors money. Period. Even little Springhill Publishing. Yes, it appears they were originally setup as a company for Chad to self-publish his own books, but that's not unusual. I have a friend who started a small publishing company that was originally to publish her own books when her prior publisher went under, but she quickly expanded to publishing others (lots of them refugees from her prior publisher). Once there are books by more than one author it is out of the realm of self-publishing.

 

[Anonymous91]

I was just wondering if there is a legal reason, or some other important reason, why it would matter if their marriage had been "sealed"? As far as the court is concerned, wouldn't a marriage certificate from the court house be enough?

Well marriage definitely covers them from the legal aspect.

I am speculating that the sealing is for their followers. My guess is that this all goes back to the money. This is all just smoke and mirrors for his die hard fans. MOO

We already know Chad is already working on writing a new book. We've also heard that he may be re-opening his private forum group. It all leads back to the money. MOO

 

[longtimereader]

The mafia are recorded as doing that...2 in a coffin. JMO

So if they found something in Tammy's grave, we will soon know. Being that they disappeared before Tammy passed away, I would want to check graves dug from around the time of JJ's disappearance. If one was disturbed or if one of their group was seen at or near a cemetery. It would not be unusual for an LDS member to visit a cemetery so I think they would feel confident no one would question their presence.

 

[josephinemarch]

I'm not picking on you, just selecting one of many possible posts on the topic to address the question. Where is this source coming from that Chad and Lori are/were sealed in a temple? Or is it just speculation and rumor?

Personally I believe this whole temple thing is way off base and completely the wrong direction to be looking. And as evidence I point simply to their beach wedding - which is on record and we have proof of.

Consider this. If somehow Chad and Lori were able to procure a temple sealing (and it's a huge if, but let's entertain it for a moment), and they truly believed they were now sealed together, then why in the world would they then go and have a beach wedding? It simply wouldn't make sense. No, the fact that they had a beach wedding is evidence that they couldn't and didn't have a temple wedding/sealing prior. And the fact that they've been on Kauai or Maui since their beach wedding is evidence they haven't had a temple sealing since then.

In addition, all photographic evidence depicting her modesty standards suggests Lori is not an endowed member of the Church, or if she is she's not living up to her covenants. Which means she wouldn't be able to enter a temple anyhow. MOO.

BBM. I notice some temples rent clothes. Could she just rent something appropriate?

I know that this has all been discussed at length. I just have one thing to add. First of all, there are guidelines to everyday clothing for people who have gone through the temple. And I have seen comments regarding this - that she doesn’t dress “up to standard.” I’m not defending her at all, *ew*, but her clothing in msm has shown clothes that seem fine and “appropriate” and worn by many women who go to the temple, even her beach wedding garb. Moo. It had sleeves. It covered her knees. I really dislike looking at a person’s appearance and trying to guess if they are going into the temple. As a normal, non sociopathic person who doesn’t make kids and spouses disappear, I would hate being assessed that way. But she is quite abnormal, quite sociopathic, so I get the assessing for sure. Just offering a different perspective.

Sometimes she wore a tank top and lots of women do that to go swimming or to the beach. The bodycam video of LVD after CV’s death looked to me like they were getting ready to swim (woohoo swim party! Sorry neighbors). I don’t think we can determine whether she could go to the temple based on her everyday clothing at all, but as for what I’ve seen, she easily could be.

As far as the question if you can rent clothing specific for temple ordinances, yes. but the comment was referencing her every-day wear, if that makes sense. What people “look for” is sleeves, longer pants, and a higher neckline to follow daily lds guidelines.

This is all MOO, I just know that I don’t assume temple attending status based on what people wear, because I don’t ever know the whole story, are they working out, are they going to the beach, are they committing murder? Sometimes different outfits suit different occasions.

ETA I agree that we can move on to other things now. I just couldn’t not comment on this.

 

[LDS social scientist]

Regarding the "temple sealing" that Chad and Lori are proported to have done:

I agree with the LDS commenters here that this would be impossible through regular channels. And if it did happen irregularly, I agree that it's probably something that took place in their own minds or through some kind of "rouge" temple worker.

But I do think it's important to add that there are stories that float around within mainstream Mormonism that actions/ordinances which are beyond the norm sometimes do take place in LDS temples -- actions/ordinances that an ordinary member would not be privy to and that would be kept more-or-less secret from most others. These usually involve high church leaders and things ordinances like the "Second Endowment" or having one's "Calling and Election Made Sure."

I have no clue as to whether these things actually take place in LDS temples, but I've heard enough stories to know it that wouldn't be a great stretch for some LDS members to not write off this quite unusual claim about Chad and Lori out of hand. At least there are those within mainstream Mormonism that would be excited to think that something bigger than the norm, even in temples is happening semi-secretly (explained more in my next post).

 

[LDS social scientist]

deleted ... double post

 

[Gardener1850]

I'm not picking on you, just selecting one of many possible posts on the topic to address the question. Where is this source coming from that Chad and Lori are/were sealed in a temple? Or is it just speculation and rumor?

Personally I believe this whole temple thing is way off base and completely the wrong direction to be looking. And as evidence I point simply to their beach wedding - which is on record and we have proof of.

Consider this. If somehow Chad and Lori were able to procure a temple sealing (and it's a huge if, but let's entertain it for a moment), and they truly believed they were now sealed together, then why in the world would they then go and have a beach wedding? It simply wouldn't make sense. No, the fact that they had a beach wedding is evidence that they couldn't and didn't have a temple wedding/sealing prior. And the fact that they've been on Kauai or Maui since their beach wedding is evidence they haven't had a temple sealing since then.

In addition, all photographic evidence depicting her modesty standards suggests Lori is not an endowed member of the Church, or if she is she's not living up to her covenants. Which means she wouldn't be able to enter a temple anyhow. MOO.

I totally agree. I've lost track of how the discussion of sealing got started. I thought we were speculating about things they may have told fellow cult members after this article about their extreme religious beliefs came out: A look at the religious circle surrounding Chad and Lori Daybell | East Idaho News

Here's an interesting quote from the article (BBM):

In some of these groups, tied into this belief is the idea that a man and a woman might be destined to be together, even if that person is married to someone else. Like multiple probations, this is not a Latter-day Saint belief.

Contrary to LDS norms, Amber said her husband began to take another married woman to a Latter-day Saint temple to receive revelation from God. Temples are places of worship for Latter-day Saints where members perform marriage ceremonies and do spiritual work.

“These people go to the temple and make promises to be together,” Amber said. “They pray about it and feel like they are getting answers.”

In interviews with other former members of these groups, some said things went beyond just temple trips. One east Idaho man, who asked not to be identified, told EastIdahoNews.com that during his time in a group, he was approached by someone who claimed to have received personal revelation that he was supposed to marry the man’s wife.

 

[sunflowerchick]

I really do think his approach was problematic. It transmits to the woman seeking the job that no other answer than "Thanks, I'll take this job" would be the right thing for her to do. Otherwise...why didn't he simply say "I'd like to offer this position to you?"

To someone used to this type of speak, it wouldn't be viewed that way. You can still say "no, thank you". His prompting to offer the job doesn't obligate you to take the job. Perhaps he was prompted to offer the job for other reasons, to start a friendship, to waste some time, etc. For example, it wouldn't be uncommon for an LDS person to say, "I didn't take the job, but if he hadn't been prompted to talk to me about it, I would have been in that car accident, etc." JUST AN EXAMPLE.
We can agree to disagree, but can we please stop with the sarcastic posts about "promptings" and negative discussion about it? That is borderline offensive to those who really believe in the stuff.

 

[jjenny]

That was just the most bizarre-a man approaching a husband and telling this husband that he received a revelation that he is supposed to marry husband's wife. Well, if it's a revelation-all righty then. LOL.