Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #32

[Love Never Fails]

MBP knew about the marriage of Alex because he was a witness at her marriage. So how did SS her aunt not know about this or about the marriage of Lori and Chad? Were they not in touch with MBP either? Yet they seem to know about CV and KVW- which had to come from Lori. So then why did they know nothing about Alex or Lori's marriages?

So Alex died of natural causes. Fine, that rabbit hole is closed regardless of what we think or feel.

Lori has a claim to the life insurance money because of Arizona’s community property laws, ok fine. That’s straight forward enough too. So, now we know her custody battle is about the possession of cash not kids because the custody battle can’t involve Tylee since the Woodcocks have no claim on her.

Good enough, let’s move on. Let’s talk about the most recent release of more whack job writings by the prophet Chad. We’re in Jim Jones/David Koresh territory here and we know how those ended. Let’s be happy Chad never gathered such a flock.

This case just makes me want to puke, the hubris is waist deep. Lolo’s entire family is living on the edge of reality. Actually, outside of reality but let’s not confuse their nonsense with facts.

During the short time I’ve been here this is one of the most frustrating and unnecessary cases I’ve followed. Whatever Lolo and Chad did didn’t have to happen. Whatever motive they had to dispose of the kids could have been handled differently.

If I could reach through the screen and strangle that entire bunch of Coxes and Daybellls I’d be there. RIGHT NOW! Please let this insanity end. PLEASE! There is no reason whatsoever for those children to be hidden. ZERO! Good lord help me.

Best wishes all and thank you for all the contributions to this case.

love your post.
But I would add that there may be a LOT more people in Chad’s “following” than we know about. This case is about Lori’s children. If this case goes to trial we may find out there are hundreds of followers of Chad. After all, he needed that income to prepare to leave the earth in July, right?

 

[Tortoise]

He grew a mustache and a goatee, according to the medical examiner's report. Sounds like he was changing his appearance as well as moving around and changing his name.

 

[Love Never Fails]

the arizona law doesnt make sense. What estranged wife is gonna let a man change his life insurance policy?? lol

I don’t live in AZ but where I do live, a life insurance policy is binding. NO ONE can challenge or change it except the owner.

 

[tresir2012]

Maybe they didn't know that?

Well ZP knew that and was there when EMS showed up. She would have told them and they would have asked.

 

[Bellat]

It would be good if someone could provide a link to this fact because I have never heard of such a law or regulation.

Yes it makes no sense. Anybody can fight it but you don’t need a spouse approval especially if u are separated. That’s hogwash.

 

[Love Never Fails]

So he had high blood pressure and a bad heart. I think killing people probably wreaks havoc in your heart and mind to a detriment. My guess is that is a third contributing factor.... also the fear of Tammys exhumation I thought it was kinda funny when Melanie said he was so healthy. He didn’t look healthy and maybe she thought that because he never went to the dr. If he did he would probably be on blood pressure meds. What a tangled web we weave JMO

Yeah. Think it’s called karma.

 

[KonaHonu]

@KonaHonu thank you for responding. I guess I wasn't clear. You stated (RS& bold BM)
"spouses and minor children have rights that supercede beneficiary declarations in many situations.

This explanation does NOT make Lori a saint but it could explain everything. She's still a money-grubbing (word I wont use) but it is consistent with her moving to Idaho and not telling anyone and also with putting the kids in hiding to protect them. It also explains why she would no produce them even for law enforcement."

I genuinely don't understand how her possibly having rights to the insurance money would lead to: moving to Idaho, hiding the kids, and not cooperating with LE. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to walk myself through the thought process and I'd appreciate your help.

Recourse for wanting some of the money would be to file something with an attorney. She has yet to do that. Even now, while she's sitting in jail and her attorney has time to file lots of ridiculous documents. Still not a Post-It about the policy. If this is a game-changer to the narrative, I don't see it.

And my understanding is that the money was given to Kay to take care of JJ, so I can't imagine Kay would withhold the money as long as she had evidence it was being used for his maintenance. But to expect the administrator of any "trust money" for a child to hand it out without some sort of oversight involving the child would, in my opinion, be ludicrous.

She may have feared for her children, whether warranted or not. I can grant that. That might lead one to hide them, move. But she has never claimed this. She has also never asked police for protection for her
children.

We have seen footage of her involved with LE--she doesn't indicate any aversion to them. In fact, she seems able to bend them to her will. And we know she has local LE "ties"--meaning, at the very least, advice from a former officer. I'm also of the opinion, based on her extensive custody battles, that she knows grandparents have essentially no legal rights to grandchildren. She still has not shown any evidence that she or her children are in danger or any sort of custody dispute. She has a lawyer. After all this time, no claims. Also, we know LE likely has access to all her texts and emails over the last 18+ months. Not a peep or a leak of any threats to their safety--in fact, the opposite: that there is no custody dispute and the children are in danger in their current situation. And I don't think anyone would be swayed by even a few messages from a frustrated KW trying to reach the grandson for whom she is supposed to be providing. I also don't buy the "she could have done this more quietly" line--how?! After months of silence, Kay finally asked for a welfare check--not a national manhunt, arrest, or months of media! And the kids were already gone! This is literally all because of Lori and she could end it with one smidge of evidence. No one else to blame.

I'm trying to find some sense, but I see zero evidence for any of these claims. And not providing a single text or email in her defense that she is being threatened makes that ring hollow. She doesn't have to wait for trial. She has no reason to sit in jail, apart from the children she loves, and spend all her money when she can resolve this without suffering any of those losses.

So I guess that leaves me with, why would she sit in jail, away from her children, wasting money on this horrible lawyer if she doesn't have to? Why would she blow this up into a national manhunt if she didn't have to? She's had plenty of opportunity to quash this. Does she think if she provided proof of life she'll compromise their location? She could move again, immediately, and we would leave her alone this time, and possibly even provide police protection, or put those threatening her behind bars. She could flip the situation and put others on the defensive. She hasn't. I can't see any of her actions making sense as a response to threats or custody, even to a deluded mind. Her lawyers, certainly, have counseled her to end this, and provided the means to do so in a way that would benefit her and any living children? Wouldn't ending this circus be best for the children she claims to care about?

I love exploring all the possibilities, I just need help seeing this as one.

Just to be clear, my theory ONLY explains the disappearance of the kids. I think there was a cold-blooded conspiracy to kill Charles and likely Tammy. (In Tammy's case I think Chad killed her, I just don't know if he conspired with Lori, Alex, or anyone else.)

So my understanding of the law in Arizona (from having lived there most of my life, had an estate plan there, and so forth), is that you need permission from your spouse to make your life insurance (and retirement accounts) beneficiary anyone other than your spouse. So that makes me question how Charles was allowed to maake the change. The arguement has been made that he was a Texas resident. But if so he could not file for divorce in Arizona. So we know he was an Arizona resident for at least several months before the February 2019 divorce filing. So unless the beneficiary was changed before October-ish 2018, it probaby was not legal.

Even with minor children, I think Lori would be entitled to the money to use as she saw fit to raise JJ.

Now, he could have set up a testamenty trust or some other type of trust to leave the money to that entity and made Kay the trustee. But we've heard nothing that suggests anything like that.

I'm suggesting something like this happened: Charles changed his beneficiary to Kay, perhaps online and no one at the inssurance company checked his marital status. Lori sends a nastygram to Kay about the money (we know this happened). Kay mentions it to someone, perhaps another brother, who is more knowledgable and tells her "Oh boy, we have a problem." So Kay tries to figure out what to do and offers to take custody of JJ as a foster parent (we have heard recently that she did just that.) Lori does so checking, maybe talks to her divorce lawyer who tells her about the beneficiary restriction and writes a letter to Kay demanding the money and threatening to sue her. Brothers threaten Lori to back off, Lori fears for her kids and moves to Idaho to be near Chad (I am assuming they were a couple at this point). It does not matter if Charles's brothers are the nicest guys in the world, if they are helping Kay keep money she is not lawfully entitled to then she would have every reason to be fearful.

So why not go to the police? What would she tell them? "My former sister-in-law has money I want and her brothers are threatening to sue me"? "Sorry ma'am, that's a civil matter."

Obviously this is just a theory. There is no evidence for some of the key elements. But it fits the narrative now coming out about threats.

Why would she sit in jail? She does not really have any alternative at this point. She has to wait until trial to defend herself. If she produced the kids now it would not get her out. She still could not afford bail. The prosecutor is not going to drop any charges until she proves she has been caring for them through some kind of arrangement. And the time when she does that is the trial. And given that she is being investigated for murder, the prosecution is ccertainly not going to back off on anything at this point.

 

[FindingJoLee]

WHY would emergency health personnel administer Narcan to someone who has had symptoms for a week prior to becoming unconscious? What would that do to a person who is suffering a pulmonary embolism?

EMS didn't know when they arrived that he had a pulmonary embolism and even people who have had cardiac or other symptoms for a week prior can also be overdosing. It's pretty benign in one dose, so it's a safe choice that could have cost his life if they didn't give it and he was overdosing.

Ok, coming back to say that I'm now realizing how stupid that sounds....since he actually did die....

 

[KonaHonu]

Yes it makes no sense. Anybody can fight it but you don’t need a spouse approval especially if u are separated. That’s hogwash.

You do need a spouse's approval in Arizona even if you are separated. But there is no evidence they were granted a legal separation.

 

[cb73]

Just a comment. I--and two family members--have a health condition that makes blood clots to the lung a real possibility. Both of them died of the clots, and a member of my knitting group also had blood clots, but survived.

All three said the same thing. The first inking was a "hit in the chest by a truck" feeling--all said they thought they were having a heart attack. All the symptoms were in their chest/breathing.

Wasn't there something else going on with Alex? Somewhere, I thought it was mentioned that when the step-son went into the bathroom--had Alex been vomiting? Or something? None of the three people I personally know had anything other than the pain/shortness of breath.

And "walking around for a week with pain and shortness of breath"? That doesn't seem to fit--but maybe he had some different type of clot or something. Or was incredibly immune to pain.

I fear that if something else were going on--poison or anything else--it's now been officially swept under the rug.

 

[tresir2012]

Just to be clear, my theory ONLY explains the disappearance of the kids. I think there was a cold-blooded conspiracy to kill Charles and likely Tammy. (In Tammy's case I think Chad killed her, I just don't know if he conspired with Lori, Alex, or anyone else.)

So my understanding of the law in Arizona (from having lived there most of my life, had an estate plan there, and so forth), is that you need permission from your spouse to make your life insurance (and retirement accounts) beneficiary anyone other than your spouse. So that makes me question how Charles was allowed to maake the change. The arguement has been made that he was a Texas resident. But if so he could not file for divorce in Arizona. So we know he was an Arizona resident for at least several months before the February 2019 divorce filing. So unless the beneficiary was changed before October-ish 2018, it probaby was not legal.

Even with minor children, I think Lori would be entitled to the money to use as she saw fit to raise JJ.

Now, he could have set up a testamenty trust or some other type of trust to leave the money to that entity and made Kay the trustee. But we've heard nothing that suggests anything like that.

I'm suggesting something like this happened: Charles changed his beneficiary to Kay, perhaps online and no one at the inssurance company checked his marital status. Lori sends a nastygram to Kay about the money (we know this happened). Kay mentions it to someone, perhaps another brother, who is more knowledgable and tells her "Oh boy, we have a problem." So Kay tries to figure out what to do and offers to take custody of JJ as a foster parent (we have heard recently that she did just that.) Lori does so checking, maybe talks to her divorce lawyer who tells her about the beneficiary restriction and writes a letter to Kay demanding the money and threatening to sue her. Brothers threaten Lori to back off, Lori fears for her kids and moves to Idaho to be near Chad (I am assuming they were a couple at this point). It does not matter if Charles's brothers are the nicest guys in the world, if they are helping Kay keep money she is not lawfully entitled to then she would have every reason to be fearful.

So why not go to the police? What would she tell them? "My former sister-in-law has money I want and her brothers are threatening to sue me"? "Sorry ma'am, that's a civil matter."

Obviously this is just a theory. There is no evidence for some of the key elements. But it fits the narrative now coming out about threats.

Why would she sit in jail? She does not really have any alternative at this point. She has to wait until trial to defend herself. If she produced the kids now it would not get her out. She still could not afford bail. The prosecutor is not going to drop any charges until she proves she has been caring for them through some kind of arrangement. And the time when she does that is the trial. And given that she is being investigated for murder, the prosecution is ccertainly not going to back off on anything at this point.

He was separated from her so no longer together. They were living in different states. He was even planning to rent another house according to his landlord. He had already changed the beneficiary so it clearly was allowed. If you have the law about this please could you post a link? Also she could have provided proof of life and support to the courts when it first came up, yet she did not, neither did she provide it as a defence but perhaps by then, if she was living in Idaho, it could not be used as a defence. She does not have to be sitting in jail if she can give proof of life and support. AJMO.

 

[Sticksandspades]

Just to be clear, my theory ONLY explains the disappearance of the kids. I think there was a cold-blooded conspiracy to kill Charles and likely Tammy. (In Tammy's case I think Chad killed her, I just don't know if he conspired with Lori, Alex, or anyone else.)

Why would she sit in jail? She does not really have any alternative at this point. She has to wait until trial to defend herself. If she produced the kids now it would not get her out. She still could not afford bail. The prosecutor is not going to drop any charges until she proves she has been caring for them through some kind of arrangement. And the time when she does that is the trial. And given that she is being investigated for murder, the prosecution is ccertainly not going to back off on anything at this point.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense me. I am trying to follow in the hopes that these kids are hidden.

Why would producing the kids now NOT get her out of jail. I think it would. Proof they are alive it the main issue. If she did that, I could see them reducing bond so she could defend her self on the remaining 3 charges (unless of course there's more charges in the Tammy Daybell case, but lets not get a head of ourselves).

Proving that she is caring for them - while in jail - and only able to communicate via a recorded line - that's a tall order. Her own family won't even ask where the kids are - as long as the calls are recorded, I doubt she would be communicating with anyone who may be hiding them. The longer she's in jail the harder that's going to be to prove. I didn't recall the atty arguing she needs bail reduced to be able to continue to get updates on their well being - cuz of course she needs to show them first. She's got her self between a rock and a hard place. I'd be trying to get to trial asap so I could see/talk to my kids. How do you explain that? Her atty is just running in circles with delay and technical gibberish - he's the cause of the most recent 2 month delay? And this is just the PRELIMINARY hearing to show there's just cause to bound this over to district court. Meanwhile her atty is fishing in the pond for information regarding the Tammy Daybell case that is not related to these charges. That doesn't sound like someone trying to get out of jail.

 

[KonaHonu]

Yes it makes no sense. Anybody can fight it but you don’t need a spouse approval especially if u are separated. That’s hogwash.

See 25-211 - Property acquired during marriage as community property; exceptions; effect of service of a petition (Arizona Revised Statutes 25-211). It defines community property. Life insurance policies are property. Filing for divorce doesn't change anything unless a divorce is actually granted and it was not for Charles and Lori.

 

[ReadySet]

I suppose it's possible the people around him tried to get him to go to the dr. but he wouldn't? But it seems we would have heard about that if so? Maybe he tried herbal/natural/mineral type "cures." Is there any indication in report of that?

A cautionary tale here: If you are having chest pain and shortness of breath, get medical help! I had sudden and persistent shortness of breath with exercise last year, no other symptoms, embarassed
to say it took three days for me to get medical help (denial.) Pulmonary embolisim both lungs. Fortunately, no complications and off blood thinner after 6 mos.
If a symptom is not normal for you, get medical help!

If he had been complaining about chest pain and sob why didn't he see a doctor or why didn't his wife do something?

 

[tresir2012]

Where is tammi's report? I don't think we are going to hear anything on that till a murder trial starts.

If that is natural causes too then I guess there won't be a murder trial.

 

[KonaHonu]

He was separated from her so no longer together. They were living in different states. He was even planning to rent another house according to his landlord.

They never sought a legal separation. Living apart even in separate states does not mean you are separated.

He had already changed the beneficiary so it clearly was allowed. If you have the law about this please could you post a link?

I suspect the insurance company screwed up. I posted a reference to the statute above.

Also she could have provided proof of life and support to the courts when it first came up, yet she did not, neither did she provide it as a defence but perhaps by then, if she was living in Idaho, it could not be used as a defence. She does not have to be sitting in jail if she can give proof of life and support. AJMO.

Totally agree. I think she was being defiant and got run over by a steam roller

I'm not defending the woman. I think she conspired to kill Charles and belongs in prison. But the "she killed her kids" narrative has never made sense to me. The new revelations about threats, if true, make a lot more sense to me.

 

[tresir2012]

See 25-211 - Property acquired during marriage as community property; exceptions; effect of service of a petition (Arizona Revised Statutes 25-211). It defines community property. Life insurance policies are property. Filing for divorce doesn't change anything unless a divorce is actually granted and it was not for Charles and Lori.

Charles lived in Texas.

 

[CSIDreamer]

See 25-211 - Property acquired during marriage as community property; exceptions; effect of service of a petition (Arizona Revised Statutes 25-211). It defines community property. Life insurance policies are property. Filing for divorce doesn't change anything unless a divorce is actually granted and it was not for Charles and Lori.

How do you figure a life insurance contract to be property?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

He was separated from her so no longer together. They were living in different states. He was even planning to rent another house according to his landlord. He had already changed the beneficiary so it clearly was allowed. If you have the law about this please could you post a link? Also she could have provided proof of life and support to the courts when it first came up, yet she did not, neither did she provide it as a defence but perhaps by then, if she was living in Idaho, it could not be used as a defence. She does not have to be sitting in jail if she can give proof of life and support. AJMO.

There’s probably much more that goes into life insurance beneficiary changes. Is it a separate asset or community asset? How was it paid? By separate or community income? Etc etc etc.
You can sell your part of a community asset house, but the other part of the community can make a claim against buyer. This is way more complicated than can or cannot change beneficiaries. To make it a “clean” beneficiary change, spousal approval is usually given for any changes. He thought he was marked for death. He let the insurance company know the facts, and made the beneficiary change. I doubt the carrier would pay out a contested death benefit.

 

[KonaHonu]

Charles lived in Texas.

When Charles filed for divorce on Feb 14, 2019 he had to swear under oath that he was an Arizona resident for the ast 90 days. Both parties would have been issued various court orders automatically. One of those would be not to transfer property or otherwise dispose of valuable property. Another would order them not to harass each other.

The timeline says they were separated but I don't recall seeing a separation order.