IDI and RDI, what do they agree upon?

[DeeDee249]

Patsy did not cover her daughter's body. JR and Det.Arndt did. The knot, which contained the fibers, was at the BACK of her neck. She was face up when found and laid face up when brought upstairs.
It would be incomprehensible for Patsy's jacket fibers, which she claimed she never wore in the basement, to be simply floating around in the basement and land in ONLY in the garrote knot and inside of the tape. That piece of tape, according to IDI, did not belong to the house and was removed from JB in the basement. Patsy says she did not see JB after she went to bed the previous night, and allegedly did not see the body in the basement. The tape never left the basement, it was removed from JB's lips by JR before he brought her up. How did her fibers get there?

 

[MurriFlower]

It's pretty obvious that RDI/IDI's dont agree on very much here. I am RDI all the way
(it was an accident), but there is ONE thing that would change me to IDI. If John Ramsey were still actively seeking his daughter's murderer and being very vocal about it as almost anyone else would be in his position. His inaction speaks to the fact that he is very relieved to be out from under that umbrella.

"12 JOHN RAMSEY: We are comfortable with that.
13 We never objected to being looked at. We
14 understand that, logically, we were in the house.
15 Okay. We accept that in an objective
16 investigation. What became concerning to us is,
17 our investigators, you know, had a tip line;
18 they'd get calls, you know. I tried to call the
19 Boulder police for five days for a month. They
20 won't return my call. I have a lead, you know. I'm
21 anxious to tell someone.
22 I lost count of the number of times that happened.
23 It started to occur to us that they're just
24 blowing off the other inputs on this. You know,
25 they're so focused on the Ramseys that nothing
0025
1 else is getting looked at. We said early on,
2 (Look, you're spending too much time on us. Look
3 elsewhere as well and we'll be fine.̃ But we never
4 got comfortable that there was anything going on
5 but a 100 percent focus on the Ramseys."

Beck if he couldn't even get the investigators to return his calls days after JBR was killed, (when he tried to give them a lead), then do you think he would be still trying to call them 14 years later? I'm sure that a stage is reached when you just have to try to get on with it, you can't continue to do TV interviews without any new evidence. Don't think of what you call his 'inaction' as being uncaring or relief at being no longer a suspect so much as his Christian acceptance of the events.

 

[DeeDee249]

Again, this is JR's say-so. Their own lawyers would not let them talk to LE. We really don't know if he did try to talk to police, and of course, we haven't had JR's claims confirmed by LE.
ANY parents whose dead child was found in their home would automatically be suspect until another perp could be identified. That's not just the Rs, that is across the board.
For myself, I don't want to focus on the parents by default, just because there has not been any other identifiable perp. I try to look at what I see as the evidence pointing to them, as well as their behavior, that day and subsequently.
And for me, it always comes down to just a few things that I can't ignore or explain away. The note, which to me, is nearly a perfect match to Patsy's writing, and the lie about the pineapple, including Patsy's inane comments about not owning the bowl and box of tissues. And the wiped -down flashlight batteries. (even more than the wiped-down flashlight).

 

[MurriFlower]

And for me, it always comes down to just a few things that I can't ignore or explain away. The note, which to me, is nearly a perfect match to Patsy's writing, and the lie about the pineapple, including Patsy's inane comments about not owning the bowl and box of tissues. And the wiped -down flashlight batteries. (even more than the wiped-down flashlight).

Not sure about the "not owning the bowl and box of tissues", this is what she said about the bowl and pineapple:

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Somebody else did this,

6 because I would never put a spoon that big in a bowl

7 like that, and I can't tell what that is, whether that

8 is grits or apples or cereal or -- I can't tell what

9 that is.

10 TRIP DEMUTH: Inside the bowl you are saying?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Inside the bowl.

12 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you recognize the bowl?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

14 TRIP DEMUTH: Where do you keep them?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: In the kitchen.

16 TRIP DEMUTH: Where in the kitchen?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, in like a cupboard over

18 to -- there is kind of big sinks over here. There is

19 an island in the middle and big sinks and above that,

20 the cupboard with dishwear in it.

8 TOM HANEY: Okay. The contents of the bowl,

9 does that appear to be pineapple to you?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Could be. Could be.

11 TOM HANEY: That is what has been described

12 as --

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Is it? It could be.

14 TOM HANEY: Do you eat or does anybody in the

15 family eat a bowl of pineapple?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the kids both ate

17 pineapple, but I would never serve a bowl like that of

18 pineapple. I would think I would put two or three

19 pieces on their plate with the rest of their food or

20 something, because, I mean, it looks weird to set out a

21 bowl like that.

I think PR says that the bowl is hers but she did not put the pineapple out in the bowl with the spoon in that way. Can't see that is inane at all, just a coment on how she would serve food. This is not her way to serve food, especially to the children.

 

[WHITEFANG]

"12 JOHN RAMSEY: We are comfortable with that.
13 We never objected to being looked at. We
14 understand that, logically, we were in the house.
15 Okay. We accept that in an objective
16 investigation. What became concerning to us is,
17 our investigators, you know, had a tip line;
18 they'd get calls, you know. I tried to call the
19 Boulder police for five days for a month. They
20 won't return my call. I have a lead, you know. I'm
21 anxious to tell someone.
22 I lost count of the number of times that happened.
23 It started to occur to us that they're just
24 blowing off the other inputs on this. You know,
25 they're so focused on the Ramseys that nothing
0025
1 else is getting looked at. We said early on,
2 (Look, you're spending too much time on us. Look
3 elsewhere as well and we'll be fine.̃ But we never
4 got comfortable that there was anything going on
5 but a 100 percent focus on the Ramseys."

It is a possibility that he is telling the truth, which would reveal alot of character on his part. "Look, I am innocent as can be, but of course you don't know that. I understand that. And you must consider us suspects given we were in the house at the time, etc. Got it. That is fine. However, you did set up a tip line and when I tried to use it, I got zero. That made me feel uncomfortable. Real uncomfortable. It told me you were focusing your efforts on us, alone. Her murderer is out there somewhere and obviously you will not pursue that seriously." Imagine his frustration.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Which material are you referring to?



This didn't happen in the basement, Fang. It happened in the living room. And she hadn't even been in that room until after JB was covered. See the problem?

No, but Patsy lived in that house. She moved around from room to room. I am sure you know what kinds of components/materials/items make dust.



That's another problem, Fang: the way the Rs were so willing to leave the house with the body still there. As ST wrote, you have to DRAG most parents away.

Personal preference. I would not want to be near the scene, either, ever.

 

[MurriFlower]

"12 JOHN RAMSEY: We are comfortable with that.
13 We never objected to being looked at. We
14 understand that, logically, we were in the house.
15 Okay. We accept that in an objective
16 investigation. What became concerning to us is,
17 our investigators, you know, had a tip line;
18 they'd get calls, you know. I tried to call the
19 Boulder police for five days for a month. They
20 won't return my call. I have a lead, you know. I'm
21 anxious to tell someone.
22 I lost count of the number of times that happened.
23 It started to occur to us that they're just
24 blowing off the other inputs on this. You know,
25 they're so focused on the Ramseys that nothing
0025
1 else is getting looked at. We said early on,
2 (Look, you're spending too much time on us. Look
3 elsewhere as well and we'll be fine.̃ But we never
4 got comfortable that there was anything going on
5 but a 100 percent focus on the Ramseys."

It is a possibility that he is telling the truth, which would reveal alot of character on his part. "Look, I am innocent as can be, but of course you don't know that. I understand that. And you must consider us suspects given we were in the house at the time, etc. Got it. That is fine. However, you did set up a tip line and when I tried to use it, I got zero. That made me feel uncomfortable. Real uncomfortable. It told me you were focusing your efforts on us, alone. Her murderer is out there somewhere and obviously you will not pursue that seriously." Imagine his frustration.

No, my understanding of this is actually it was the R's investigators who set up the tip line, not the Police! The R's were doing everything in their power to help find the killer. When they got tips on this line and JR tried to pass them on to the Police, they don't take his calls and they don't call back!

It's part of the RDI thing to assume that any 'leads' to anyone else are in fact simply attempts by the R's to deflect the investigation away from them.

 

[WHITEFANG]

"There's just one thing wrong with that. PR admitted she never painted with those clothes on or went into that room with them on. It's in the 2000 interviews."

There were a washer and dryer in the basement. Guess how far tiny particles of clothing fibers can float in the warm, light air from a dryer vent? Patsy's clothing fibers and hair fibers should be present in every crack and crevice of the structure of the house and the items within it.

 

[WHITEFANG]

The problem there, fang, is that when deep shock sets in, it draws blood AWAY from the skin to better support the internals.

Yet, there should be some indication on the scalp of leaking blood.
Did she have a CAT Scan?

 

[DeeDee249]

The problem there, fang, is that when deep shock sets in, it draws blood AWAY from the skin to better support the internals.

Yet, there should be some indication on the scalp of leaking blood.
Did she have a CAT Scan?

No cat scan is usually done on a dead person. They did an autopsy. There was nothing noted at the autopsy that there was bruising of the scalp or any indication that there was bleeding inside the skull. According to those present at the autopsy (which included Det. Arndt and I believe Det. Trujillo and another medical examiner besides Mayer) Mayer was surprised to find the skull fracture, and didn't find it until he peeled back her scalp to remove the skull cap (standard procedure). Then, he saw the subdural bleeding and bleeding into the subarachnoid space.
There WAS note made of "tan mucous" in her nostrils, and the dried fluid on her cheek had been described as "tan" also. To me, "tan" means blood-tinged because blood turns brownish when it dries. Had she lived longer, there would almost surely been more blood coming from her nose, ears and mouth.

BTW, Patsy told LE she didn't buy "that kind of tissue" when shown a picture of the tissue box on the table with the pineapple bowl, and I believe at one point in the beginning she claimed the bowl looked unfamiliar. Then, of course, her prints turned up on it.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Thank you DeeDee

Yes, that is what I was asking. Thank you!

So, this case is in limbo? I remember earlier when I first came to WS, some were talking about new LE working on this case? But, I may be very confused about that...

On Cold Case Files(and The Investigators), the real shows not the drama shows, when new officers come along and take the case they get to go through all of the old evidence.

Could or would or did or has that ever happened in this case? Does it have to become a "cold case" first? What makes a case an "unresolved murder" vs. a "cold case?"

I am confused all over websleuths today. I have really hit a wall in my understanding of how our LE and law deal with crime of this nature(meaning murder). Between this case, Haleigh and Caylee...

It is just an opinion I am forming but humanity needs to rethink what LE needs to do their job better(I find no fault with individual LE, I am speaking of the system in general) and to rethink the power lawyers have. I don't have any answers and I know what I have just said probably falls under the favorite adult catch-all "it's not that easy, simple" but its how I feel right now.

I know we are not in a perfect world...but, what could it hurt but to bring justice for JB: to let the information/evidence be seen by new officers, or LE outside of those that originally had the case? I'm just babbling...I don't expect you guys to answer this stuff. I get that there are answers for all of this, (I need to do more reading) but none of them seem right or fair. IMHO.

If I had been accused of hurting my daughter the way the Ramsey's did, I would beg for my day in court. I would want to show everyone in the world I did not murder my child. IMO.

:twocents:

that's some excellent babbling! if that's what it's called.

rethinking the power lawyers have is or should be at the top of the list, along with the power and corruption of judges and the meaningless paths available to hold their fat butts accountable.


"This would not have prevented the petechia from forming due to the strangulation, there was plenty of time for the strangulation to follow the head bash, as death may have taken UP TO an hour. Not only would JB have been rendered unconscious by such a severe blow, but she may have slipped into a coma"

HMMM Which is it? Should there have been a visible contusion on her scalp or not? If this statement is true, then yes.

"If I had been accused of hurting my daughter the way the Ramsey's did, I would beg for my day in court. I would want to show everyone in the world I did not murder my child. IMO."

I held this point of view my whole life. Come hell or high water, I'll show 'em. In court, I'll have my opportunity to tell it like it really is. No one can stop me from having my day in court, when I know I'm right. One of the most disturbing and saddest events in my life involve our judiciary. If I told you in detail what happened as I worked with two lawyers, one federal judge and three agencies of the federal government, you would not believe it. I still can't believe it.

It would be exceedingly dangerous for the Ramseys to go to court to prove they are innocent, even if they are 100% free of any/all guilt associated with anything to do with this horror. A court of law is a lot like hell. Truth is immaterial. Evidence can be what skillful/deceptive legal maneuvering allows it to be. Judges turn out to be nothing more than what they really are, many times, lawyers in black gowns.

 

[MurriFlower]

BTW, Patsy told LE she didn't buy "that kind of tissue" when shown a picture of the tissue box on the table with the pineapple bowl, and I believe at one point in the beginning she claimed the bowl looked unfamiliar. Then, of course, her prints turned up on it.

No I couldn't find any reference to the tissue or to her not claiming the bowl, but I haven't read everything written on this case, and as you refuse to 'share' it makes it hard to find the source for some of the things you claim.

Would it have been possible that the housekeeper bought things for the house occasionally? I don't think it's mentioned anywhere, but it would be a normal thing to do. I was thinking of this earlier, perhaps PR even let LHP have her store/credit/debit card to make these purchases?

 

[DeeDee249]

No I couldn't find any reference to the tissue or to her not claiming the bowl, but I haven't read everything written on this case, and as you refuse to 'share' it makes it hard to find the source for some of the things you claim.

Would it have been possible that the housekeeper bought things for the house occasionally? I don't think it's mentioned anywhere, but it would be a normal thing to do. I was thinking of this earlier, perhaps PR even let LHP have her store/credit/debit card to make these purchases?

Just go and read Patsy's interviews for yourself. It's not a matter of sharing. I read for a year before I even joined here, and I'd rather you read for yourself than simply source it for you. You can read all of Patsy's interviews word for word, on acandyrose. There were at least 4 with Patsy and about the same with JR. The one where she discussed the tissue box MIGHT be the 98 or the 97, but scroll down each one till you find the line of questioning about the pineapple. That is the one where she discussed the bowl, spoon and tissue box.
These are the actual transcripts of the interviews and not someone's opinion or memories about what was said. I feel these interviews are the most important reading material on the case for all of us, RDI or IDI.

 

[MurriFlower]

Just go and read Patsy's interviews for yourself. It's not a matter of sharing. I read for a year before I even joined here, and I'd rather you read for yourself than simply source it for you. You can read all of Patsy's interviews word for word, on acandyrose. There were at least 4 with Patsy and about the same with JR. The one where she discussed the tissue box MIGHT be the 98 or the 97, but scroll down each one till you find the line of questioning about the pineapple. That is the one where she discussed the bowl, spoon and tissue box.
These are the actual transcripts of the interviews and not someone's opinion or memories about what was said. I feel these interviews are the most important reading material on the case for all of us, RDI or IDI.

Might this be the reference you were thinking of?

15 TRIP DEMUTH: Look at all those pictures,

16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.

17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in

18 the basement.

19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual

20 in those photos?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't

22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations

23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we

24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the

25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom

0408

1 available.

2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is

3 that how you left them?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have

5 left that. I left it like that.

6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why

7 that would be there.

8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.

9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,

10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time

11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that

12 bathroom because I think one of the boys had used the

13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so

14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is

15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.

16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she

17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too

19 much about that bathroom.

20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't

21 in there?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually

23 closed because that -- that door opens right when you

24 came down those steps. (Inaudible). There are a bunch

25 of smears on here.

0409

or maybe this one?

"23 TOM HANEY: We left off, I think, with 376,

24 the bible. Now 377.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like the counter

0456

1 top of the basement bathroom (inaudible). Tissue or

2 something. I don't know what that would be.

3 (Inaudible).

4 TOM HANEY: That is which bathroom?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: I think this is the basement,

6 the little bathroom there in the basement. I mean, it

7 is the only one that had -- the other ones had

8 different counter tops.

9 TOM HANEY: Okay. So would that be normal or

10 be expected there?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I just -- I just told

12 you, you know, the boys usually -- it looks like Burke

13 has been in there or somebody was there with an

14 airplane in there. But I don't know what would be

15 blue. I just -- I didn't go down there much, if ever.

If so, I'm not sure it was a 'box of tissues' because I remember seeing a photo of the bathroom on ACR with something that looks like clothes or rags on the floor. I'm wondering if that's what was shown to PR. I believe that PR referred to toilet paper as "tissue". There are a couple of other references in that interview but I think they all refer to toilet paper.

 

[madeleine]

Please remind everyone that to the layman JonBenet likely appeared to be dead or near death from the blunt trauma to the head. At that point, a ligature device as a staging instrument is in the realm of possibility.

It also seems obvious to me that whoever is responsible for that trauma suspected she was dead or so near death as to render survival as little more than being in a vegetative state. It is highly unlikely she would have survived such trauma and I suspect the offender could have thought so too.

If it was an accident and not planned that means they did love their daughter so I guess they would have been sane enough to CHECK if she's dead or not before putting a cord around her neck and pulling it!!!Or inserting a paintbrush in her vagina!Wouldn't you NEED to be sure?God this is getting ridiculous.

 

[madeleine]

It's not obvious to me at all that a parent (not a sick one,remember,we are talking about an accident) would become so brutal and put a cord around a child's neck and pull it ,then sexually assault her WITHOUT making S U R E she IS dead!

 

[BOESP]

"There's just one thing wrong with that. PR admitted she never painted with those clothes on or went into that room with them on. It's in the 2000 interviews."

There were a washer and dryer in the basement. Guess how far tiny particles of clothing fibers can float in the warm, light air from a dryer vent? Patsy's clothing fibers and hair fibers should be present in every crack and crevice of the structure of the house and the items within it.

Do you know whether or not Patsy dry-cleaned the garment in question or home-laundered it?

 

[BOESP]

If it was an accident and not planned that means they did love their daughter so I guess they would have been sane enough to CHECK if she's dead or not before putting a cord around her neck and pulling it!!!Or inserting a paintbrush in her vagina!Wouldn't you NEED to be sure?God this is getting ridiculous.

Self preservation causes humans to do strange things.

Perhaps you don't understand clinical death versus a layman's observation.

 

[madeleine]

Self preservation causes humans to do strange things.

Perhaps you don't understand clinical death versus a layman's observation.

Perhaps I don't,yeah.
Even so ,PR finishing JB off by pulling that garrote not knowing she was still alive is pure SPECULATION.No proof or even suggestion whatsoever that this is what happened there.

 

[madeleine]

How can you even say PR bashed her head,you don't even know which came frist,head blow or strangulation,you don't even know what she was hit with or whether she fell or was pushed,you don't know where it happened nor when it happened.What are you basing this theory on anyway?LHP saying JB wet the bed and ST finding some diapers on a shelf?