If Elizabeth Acted Alone, What Did She Do With Gabriel?

[not_my_kids]

I agree with you on this. If she was trying to find someone online to adopt the baby illegally she would of had to of striked out a few times. The would-be adoptive parents that weren't willing would of come forward by now saying Elizabeth tried to get them to adopt Gabriel illegally. This leads me to believe the Nashville friend of TS set her up with someone, a baby broker.

How do we know that they would come forward if there were any other prospects besides Tammi and Jack. Buying a baby is as illegal as selling one. Tempe PD has made it clear that they will prosecute those on the fringes of the case.

 

[BeanE]

How do we know that they would come forward if there were any other prospects besides Tammi and Jack. Buying a baby is as illegal as selling one. Tempe PD has made it clear that they will prosecute those on the fringes of the case.

Txhope and I were saying if Eliz approached couples looking to legally adopt, when they realized she was illegally giving or selling Gabe, one of them was likely to come forward. Or to have come forward now and said Hey, I think this girl was trying to give/sell Gabe to me.

 

[southern_comfort]

Interesting article I had not read before about advertising babies on Craig's List in TX. According to this article, that's perfectly fine so long as there's no overt money talk. (Or it was, at the time of the article).
http://news.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/baby-advertised-for-adoption-on-craigsli

I don't have links for the rest of this... I am just speaking from experience and general knowledge. I think in most instances, unethical/illegal US adoptions don't just happen in a random meeting. The paper trail in the US is hard to fake. They are set up through agencies and attorneys who dabble in the unethical behind their legit practices. So, someone in EJ's position might answer a completely legal ad about adoption and be slowly led into the realm of the unethical, or be tipped off by someone experienced about which agency might be most useful to her if she is looking for payment or a quick and easy placement.

I don't think there are many babies moving illegally from the US to Mexico, especially caucasians. Human trafficking is about money... networks are set up for babies to travel upstream, in the opposite direction from the flow of the cash. I suppose she could have just happened upon the right (wrong) individual, but I see it as an extreme longshot. If Gabriel went to Mexico, I would have a very hard time believing it wasn't planned well in advance.

 

[not_my_kids]

Txhope and I were saying if Eliz approached couples looking to legally adopt, when they realized she was illegally giving or selling Gabe, one of them was likely to come forward. Or to have come forward now and said Hey, I think this girl was trying to give/sell Gabe to me.

Oh, I am appropriately embarrassed. I don't know how I missed that, I really did read the posts, but somehow missed the point :slap:. I am really sorry.

I think that EJ can sense desperation. She does seem a bit predatory herself, it's not just the other players. Maybe she contacted couples that she could tell were desperate, but weren't desperate enough yet. If they have since reached the point where they will cross the line to get a baby, and have started some kind of illegal or shady adoption, I can see why they wouldn't come forward.

I don't know, I somehow believe Tammi that they met when Gabe was about a month old. I think that from that point, EJ knew or thought that she had an escape route anytime. She doesn't seem to be real big on the backup plan, so she may have just not bothered to look after finding her out.

 

[Litlred]

Looks like the trailer may have just been sold?

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Tips or Suggestions for Logan's trip

If JHC owned it, according to the tax records in 2007, 2008 and 2009, why is he selling it now all of a sudden and why can't I find him in AZ?

 

[vjlaw]

I'm just wondering if she did rent the trailer, does she know this person and how, or did she find an ad in the paper? If she had some type of personal relationship with the owner of the trailer. who knows, maybe she found someone through him to give Gabriel to.

JMO, but I think these are good questions to ask of the family. Especially the one about a personal relationship with the owner.

 

[BeanE]

Okay, here's what I'm noodling on. I'm in a hotel in a city I've never been to, don't know anybody, don't know my way around even, but I've got just a few days to find somebody to give or sell my baby to.

I need to find some seedy people. My first thought is drug dealers. They have connections to the baby trafficking world. Babies are even traded for drugs and to satisfy drug debts.

I think I (yes, even I lol) would be able to drive around and fairly easily find the sections of town where drugs are sold on the street. And there, I think, especially if I looked like Eliz, I could ask around and connect with someone willing to help me sell my baby for a cut of the profit.

I don't think Eliz would have any major problems talking with drug dealers on the streets.

How's that for a way for Eliz to connect to someone to give/sell Gabe to quickly? Thoughts?

 

[not_my_kids]

Okay, here's what I'm noodling on. I'm in a hotel in a city I've never been to, don't know anybody, don't know my way around even, but I've got just a few days to find somebody to give or sell my baby to.

I need to find some seedy people. My first thought is drug dealers. They have connections to the baby trafficking world. Babies are even traded for drugs and to satisfy drug debts.

I think I (yes, even I lol) would be able to drive around and fairly easily find the sections of town where drugs are sold on the street. And there, I think, especially if I looked like Eliz, I could ask around and connect with someone willing to help me sell my baby for a cut of the profit.

I don't think Eliz would have any major problems talking with drug dealers on the streets.

How's that for a way for Eliz to connect to someone to give/sell Gabe to quickly? Thoughts?

Possible, plausible even. Since the drug areas are usually also the prostitution areas, she could have connected with someone in the sex trade or the drug trade.

 

[Boo Scout]

Okay, here's what I'm noodling on. I'm in a hotel in a city I've never been to, don't know anybody, don't know my way around even, but I've got just a few days to find somebody to give or sell my baby to.

I need to find some seedy people. My first thought is drug dealers. They have connections to the baby trafficking world. Babies are even traded for drugs and to satisfy drug debts.

I think I (yes, even I lol) would be able to drive around and fairly easily find the sections of town where drugs are sold on the street. And there, I think, especially if I looked like Eliz, I could ask around and connect with someone willing to help me sell my baby for a cut of the profit.

I don't think Eliz would have any major problems talking with drug dealers on the streets.

How's that for a way for Eliz to connect to someone to give/sell Gabe to quickly? Thoughts?

I think this makes sense. She is attractive and would have no problem finding people to talk to if she went looking for it. These are also people that wouldn't readily talk to police, and even people in those neighborhoods who might have seen something would be reluctant to talk to police for many reasons.

 

[BeanE]

Oh, I am appropriately embarrassed. I don't know how I missed that, I really did read the posts, but somehow missed the point :slap:. I am really sorry.

I think that EJ can sense desperation. She does seem a bit predatory herself, it's not just the other players. Maybe she contacted couples that she could tell were desperate, but weren't desperate enough yet. If they have since reached the point where they will cross the line to get a baby, and have started some kind of illegal or shady adoption, I can see why they wouldn't come forward.

I don't know, I somehow believe Tammi that they met when Gabe was about a month old. I think that from that point, EJ knew or thought that she had an escape route anytime. She doesn't seem to be real big on the backup plan, so she may have just not bothered to look after finding her out.

Awwww NMK, don't be embarrassed and don't apologize for Heaven's sake. Easy mistake to make.

I too believe that Eliz met Tammi when Gabe was about one month. I think that's what sparked the conversations with Logan around that time about giving Gabe up for adoption.

 

[Litlred]

JMO, but I think these are good questions to ask of the family. Especially the one about a personal relationship with the owner.

Thanks VJ, good idea. I'm going to put this on our list of questions for the family. I think it is important.

 

[BeanE]

JJ Armes thinks Gabe is alive, and that Elizabeth was trying to sell him.

Very brief statement by JJ in this video:

http://www.azcentral.com/video/#/Ne...+is+alive/40280768001/35150280001/64948296001

I think we're on the right track. Let's keep sleuthing!!

 

[AZlawyer]

The thing about couples wanting to adopt, on the internet, it looks like the vast majority want to do things legally. When I was cruising the net looking for somebody to give my imagibaby away to illegally, that's what struck me. Shortly after I started looking, I realized that if I started contacting all these couples, at least one of them was bound to call LE on me for trying to illegally give away my imagibaby.

That made me think that Eliz was likely to have the same experience: the realization that most couples were looking for a legal adoption, and the realization that somebody would call LE if she started contacting these 'legal' people.

It's risky, and Eliz did not want to be found or called in to LE. She knew what she was doing was illegal. She knew a 'legal' couple would need papers from Logan relinquishing his rights.

I think she most likely hit the street looking for somebody seedy to make a connection with.

Unless... she found a way to identify for sure people on the internet looking to take or buy babies illegally. I'm sure it's done. Pedophiles are all over the internet. We need to find a way to find the lowlifes advertising to buy a baby illegally on the net.

Hope this makes sense. I haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet lol.

But what if she had a paper/papers showing that the "father" had relinquished his rights? It's not like EJ didn't know anyone who was willing to commit forgery...

Fake birth certificate with wrong name for father, together with real document signed by fake father giving away his non-existent rights?

Real birth cert. with Logan's name, together with forged signature on document giving away his rights (or forged court order terminating his rights)?

 

[BeanE]

But what if she had a paper/papers showing that the "father" had relinquished his rights? It's not like EJ didn't know anyone who was willing to commit forgery...

Fake birth certificate with wrong name for father, together with real document signed by fake father giving away his non-existent rights?

Real birth cert. with Logan's name, together with forged signature on document giving away his rights (or forged court order terminating his rights)?

For a legal adoption, would an attorney check those papers against court records to verify they were valid? In the process along the way, does anyone check?

 

[kappy50]

One thing I was thinking of. How many people know someone that wants to adopt a baby? When I was younger I adopted my first son and it seemed like I knew a lot of people that wanted to adopt. Maybe because of my situation but I would guess that if she met someone along the way and started talking about what was going on, someone may have known a couple that they knew wanted a baby. It is possible that it happened that way. Kind of far fetched but possible. Why that couple didn't go through regular means, like a agency could have been cost, not elligable for what ever reasons (age, background check), not wanting the long wait. Are there people that would be willing to do it illegaly and keep the child hidden? I can imagine. When we adopted our son, it took 6 months for the adoption to be finalized. I was scared to death the birth mother would change her mind and even thought of running if she tried to get him back. Thank God that didn't happen but I know how it feels to bond so much with an adopted child that you would do anything not to lose him, just like you would with a biological child. You don't always think straight.

D..as a adoptive mother myself..I can truly understand what you are saying...We did not go through an agency, it came about with my OB/GYN..but we still had the legal issues...but those are legal procedures, we wanted....all they had to do was sign and show up if you want to. My daughter is now 31 years old...it's hard to beleive when we got her at 9 months...she'd be where she is today..

 

[kappy50]

This is my crazy theory...I really don't think she gave Gabriel to strangers. Whatever went array in SA happened quick. I do believe the Smiths have something to do with her getting to Texas. And I also truly believe she acted on her own. And it is my best guess, Gabriel is in Arkansas....

 

[kissdegirl]

Since I only heard of this case a few weeks ago, I missed all of the early interviews and such. So, I was just reading this transcript from NG on the 7th, and just don't understand this part from a defense attorney, Michael Mazzariello...snipped.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got one thing. I`ve got one thing and I`m going out on a limb because the most scenarios by this point the baby is, in fact, not alive.

Michael Mazzariello, the one thing that suggest to me the baby is alive is that, this is basically the same way she was -- got hooked up with the Smiths. They were in an airport. She`s seeing her holding the baby crying. They come up. They end up being perspective adoptive parents. And that`s basically what she`s saying happened in this park.


MAZZARIELLO: And that`s exactly what could have happened again. Who knows what happened before she got to the hotel room with an empty baby sit. They do have a great time frame as to when she did enter that hotel room. And chances are, if she did it once, she did it again.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1001/07/ng.01.html

What the hey are they talking about? I thought they were talking about showing up at the Motel 6 and leaving the carseat behind..empty. But. Does he mean hotel parking lot?

If it has been discussed already, I would be grateful if someone could point me to it. Thanks.

 

[DairyGirl]

I have a question. How many people know someone that want to adopt a baby? If you ran into a pregnant woman right now and she told you she was thinking about adopting a baby would you be able to tell her about someone you know that wanted to adopt a baby? I don't know about you, but I love babies. When I go out, to the store or a restaurant or somewhere and there is a baby there I graviate towards the baby. I always ask how old they are, etc. If that person told me that they were thinking of giving the baby away I would probably immediately think of someone that wanted one. I even considered taking my daughter's friends baby when she decided to put him up for adoption (then sanity returned and I realized at over 50 with 5 children and 3 grandchildren I would not be the best choice for a little baby). The point I am trying to make is I don't see it as unreasonable that EJ found someone to take Gabriel off her hands. I don't even see her as having a problem finding someone even with minimal effort. I can even see how a person could want a baby so bad they would be willing to break the law for one. I do think it involved more then that though. I think she was already in contact with someone and that brought her to San Antonio. I believe that if LE had found some connection to San Antonio and the Smiths that would have been included in the charging documents, so I do believe that San Antonio was EJ's idea and something brought her there. I wish LE had her laptop because I believe that all the answers are in there.

 

[kissdegirl]

This is my crazy theory...I really don't think she gave Gabriel to strangers. Whatever went array in SA happened quick. I do believe the Smiths have something to do with her getting to Texas. And I also truly believe she acted on her own. And it is my best guess, Gabriel is in Arkansas....

When EJ and LM went to Ft. Smith and became pregnant with Gabriel...I have wondered. Do we know why they went to Ft. Smith of all places?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2010/01/17/20100117missingbaby0117.html

 

[not_my_kids]

When EJ and LM went to Ft. Smith and became pregnant with Gabriel...I have wondered. Do we know why they went to Ft. Smith of all places?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2010/01/17/20100117missingbaby0117.html

I don't know, but my assumption has always been that it was so Logan could find work...that only came from "after a falling out with his boss," but knowing what happens when I assume....