IL - 6 y.o. boy stabbed 2 y.o. brother, Joliet, 6 September 2024

[stonedgnome]

@stonedgnome I would not think of it as my child committing murder, if they were only 6. I would think of it as they really didn't understand what they were doing, and personally, I would probably blame myself (for being in the other room, for example, even though that's going to happen to all parents at some point). (And IMO this is also why you see even parents/relatives of violent teenagers defending them. Because it's still their child, and they look for reasons to explain why the child did what they did.)

And I think you would not want to "lose" another child, even psychologically, so you would have to blame something else, such as "an accident," etc.

Heartbreaking.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

many more details have come to light about the childhood environment and parents of the two boys. Father faced a criminal case in 2022 for beating the then 4 year old who is now 6. The 2 year old brother shares a mother with the accused child, but not a father.

DCFS has been involved with this family since at least 2022. the 6 year old received a diagnosis of ODD at the age of 4.

more at this link Dad Abused Boy Accused Of Killing Little Brother In Joliet: Complaint

Wow! ODD diagnosis at age 4. Terribly sad.

 

[Rita7]

OMG! What a sad and extremely shocking case!
Poor 6 y. o. was terribly abused by his own father; plus, genetic factors (as his father obviously had some kind of anger control issues). I still hopeful this boy will get a proper treatment for ODD and eventually outgrow the disorder.

IMOO

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Within hours of Joliet police responding to a 911 call from the mother shortly after 5 p.m. on Sept. 6, the older brother was placed in the custody of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services, which arranged a mental health evaluation at a local hospital the next morning. The department declined to confirm if he was still in its care as of Wednesday since the investigation into the stabbing is ongoing.

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is one of 24 states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

“There are very real questions about whether children are capable of forming criminal intent, of understanding the impact of their actions and intending to cause harm,” said Lisa Jacobs, a law professor at Loyola University Chicago and the vice chair of the Illinois Juvenile Justice Commission. “Does a 6-year-old understand death?”

Joliet boy allegedly killed by brother raising questions about child culpability laws

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is in the slim minority of states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[tlcya]

FAMILY STATEMENT
On Friday, September 6, we unexpectedly lost our beautiful two-year-old boy, Christopher. Christopher was loved by his family, and he reciprocated that unconditional love. He was a sweet soul who brought joy to all those around him and we will forever hold his memory close to our hearts.

Christopher was more than just a beloved son—he was a fighter. Born after surviving medical complications that required surgery and the loss of his twin brother, Christopher's birth was nothing short of a miracle.

The loss of a young child is an unimaginable heartache that no parent or family member should ever have to endure. We are so grateful to family and friends for their love, support and prayers.

As we mourn the loss of our beloved Christopher, we ask for privacy. We will not be addressing the public, and we would like to ask the media for respect, privacy and responsible coverage, as inaccurate reports may add suffering to our grieving family.

Thank you for your understanding.

Joliet family releases statement, identifies 2-year-old fatally stabbed by 6-year-old brother

On Saturday, the Urbina family identified their son as 2-year-old Christopher, who died on Sept. 6.

www.cbsnews.com

REGARDING CHRISTOPHER
The family described the toddler as a beloved son and a “fighter.” He suffered medical complications at birth that required surgery and the death of his twin brother.
[snip]
He “was loved by his family, and he reciprocated that unconditional love,” the family said in a statement. “He was a sweet soul who brought joy to all those around him, and we will forever hold his memory close to our hearts.”

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2...rime-violence-suburban-chicago-police-joliet-

IF the link doesn't work because the censor doesn't like one of the words in the title, this is from the Chicago Sun Times Article By Kade Heather dated Sept 14, 2024, 7:07pm CDT

 

[scapa]

Within hours of Joliet police responding to a 911 call from the mother shortly after 5 p.m. on Sept. 6, the older brother was placed in the custody of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services, which arranged a mental health evaluation at a local hospital the next morning. The department declined to confirm if he was still in its care as of Wednesday since the investigation into the stabbing is ongoing.

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is one of 24 states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

“There are very real questions about whether children are capable of forming criminal intent, of understanding the impact of their actions and intending to cause harm,” said Lisa Jacobs, a law professor at Loyola University Chicago and the vice chair of the Illinois Juvenile Justice Commission. “Does a 6-year-old understand death?”

Joliet boy allegedly killed by brother raising questions about child culpability laws

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is in the slim minority of states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

www.chicagotribune.com

This isn't a hard one for me -- no 6YO belongs in prison, or even juvie hall, where he's certain to be further targeted and abused, IMO.

Removal from environment, no further contact with abusive parent, extensive therapeutic interventions are the way to go IMO.

Don't really see a thorny juridical dilemma here, though certainly some difficult questions in terms of developmental practice / morality.

EDIT: Just saw the family statement. What a sad, sad backstory. Awful.

 

[tlcya]

yeah, I just don't see any circumstance where a 6 year old truly has the brain development enough to understand death, its permanency, etc, to justify a charge of murder.

There is a case of a 9 year old that was charged in IL with five counts of murder for setting a house fire that killed their family members. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that one, but 6? No way.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

yeah, I just don't see any circumstance where a 6 year old truly has the brain development enough to understand death, its permanency, etc, to justify a charge of murder.

There is a case of a 9 year old that was charged in IL with five counts of murder for setting a house fire that killed their family members. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that one, but 6? No way.

IL - Child, 9, charged in fire deaths of 5 people, Goodfield, 6 Apr 2019 #2

A 9-year-old child accused of causing a mobile home fire that killed three children and two adults in central Illinois has been charged with five counts of first-degree murder. The juvenile also was charged with two counts of arson and one count of aggravated arson, the (Peoria) Journal Star...

www.websleuths.com

 

[tlcya]

yep, that is the case. I am still so conflicted about it.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

This isn't a hard one for me -- no 6YO belongs in prison, or even juvie hall, where he's certain to be further targeted and abused, IMO.

Removal from environment, no further contact with abusive parent, extensive therapeutic interventions are the way to go IMO.

Don't really see a thorny juridical dilemma here, though certainly some difficult questions in terms of developmental practice / morality.

EDIT: Just saw the family statement. What a sad, sad backstory. Awful.

Agree with your post. But also -- if there was an abusive parent, the parent should face charges. IMO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[Soulmagent]

Within hours of Joliet police responding to a 911 call from the mother shortly after 5 p.m. on Sept. 6, the older brother was placed in the custody of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services, which arranged a mental health evaluation at a local hospital the next morning. The department declined to confirm if he was still in its care as of Wednesday since the investigation into the stabbing is ongoing.

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is one of 24 states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

“There are very real questions about whether children are capable of forming criminal intent, of understanding the impact of their actions and intending to cause harm,” said Lisa Jacobs, a law professor at Loyola University Chicago and the vice chair of the Illinois Juvenile Justice Commission. “Does a 6-year-old understand death?”

Joliet boy allegedly killed by brother raising questions about child culpability laws

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is in the slim minority of states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

www.chicagotribune.com

I Hope they dont charge him just because they can .
As an American ,who still has voting rights and wow . I didnt know this so thank you . I bet the children in that state definitely need more attention -with the current issues in that state. What have they been doing there beside feeding drugs and corruptions into the state?
Loyola University Chicago should peek into a few legal issues and community issues and try to figure out if these laws work into what is considered not in line with todays vision of the future. The structure seems inline with 1940's idea's .

 

[Soulmagent]

Agree with your post. But also -- if there was an abusive parent, the parent should face charges. IMO.

I hear you but , most kids spend 12 hours away from their working parents . Other things affect your children and all of us have to leave our children sometimes.
Poor single moms have to do it a lot more and for longer. I do not know her personal position in life ,but I do know I get so tired of hearing omg why do mothers leave their children with people like this or why cant people just watch their kids..etc.. . admittedly some are just what everyone screams they are , other times its a really crappy person they rely on to get them though and sometimes bad crap happens to good people. I rarely ever hear about a good person stepping up for the mom before this kinda thing happens.

 

[TMcgee]

This is such an awful situation all around. I’d like to say it’s unbelievable but unfortunately, I’ve worked with some kids who experienced extensive trauma in early childhood, and seen how it can change their brains. This reminds me of one child I worked with who -at age 4- pushed a bookshelf over on his toddler brother and stated “I wanted to hear all of his bones breaking”. He also tried to drown him in the tub and made another statement along the lines of wanting to watch him die. The last time I saw this child at age 14, he met the criteria for antisocial personality disorder (other than being too young for that diagnosis). I no longer remember his name, but I’ll never forget those words coming out of his 4 year old mouth.

It’s such a bleak outlook for kids in these situations. I can’t imagine there’s a loving foster family out there willing to risk their own lives to take in a child who’s killed. If he is removed from his home, I would guess the only option is a group home, which isn’t great for him either. I’d love to be wrong though.

 

[Soulmagent]

This is such an awful situation all around. I’d like to say it’s unbelievable but unfortunately, I’ve worked with some kids who experienced extensive trauma in early childhood, and seen how it can change their brains. This reminds me of one child I worked with who -at age 4- pushed a bookshelf over on his toddler brother and stated “I wanted to hear all of his bones breaking”. He also tried to drown him in the tub and made another statement along the lines of wanting to watch him die. The last time I saw this child at age 14, he met the criteria for antisocial personality disorder (other than being too young for that diagnosis). I no longer remember his name, but I’ll never forget those words coming out of his 4 year old mouth.

It’s such a bleak outlook for kids in these situations. I can’t imagine there’s a loving foster family out there willing to risk their own lives to take in a child who’s killed. If he is removed from his home, I would guess the only option is a group home, which isn’t great for him either. I’d love to be wrong though.

I would risk mine. He is 6. I wouldn't risk my families.
I have no degree's in anything.
lets send him into a " safe place " like maybe this one in VA..
Trial opens for former doctor at New Kent children’s hospital accused of sexual abuse

seems reminiscent of the ideas of the time on the inception of these ideas ...Letchworth Village - Wikipedia

BTW the state orders your kids to go to these places and pays for them to go ..and other ppl are forced to pay for the help themselves..

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Somehow I am not following? It sounds like this family has now lost two children (the first before or at birth). So I maybe they wouldn't want to send away their 6-year-old, at least not long-term.

 

[Soulmagent]

Somehow I am not following? It sounds like this family has now lost two children (the first before or at birth). So I maybe they wouldn't want to send away their 6-year-old, at least not long-term.

I didn't know they lost a baby prior to this incident ?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Within hours of Joliet police responding to a 911 call from the mother shortly after 5 p.m. on Sept. 6, the older brother was placed in the custody of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services, which arranged a mental health evaluation at a local hospital the next morning. The department declined to confirm if he was still in its care as of Wednesday since the investigation into the stabbing is ongoing.

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is one of 24 states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

“There are very real questions about whether children are capable of forming criminal intent, of understanding the impact of their actions and intending to cause harm,” said Lisa Jacobs, a law professor at Loyola University Chicago and the vice chair of the Illinois Juvenile Justice Commission. “Does a 6-year-old understand death?”

Joliet boy allegedly killed by brother raising questions about child culpability laws

The 6-year-old boy could be charged with murder because Illinois is in the slim minority of states without a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

www.chicagotribune.com

Is intent to cause harm enough? He may have intended to cause a degree of harm, but that's very different than intending to cause death. MOO

Is the 6 year-old's father still around? In the picture? TIA

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I didn't know they lost a baby prior to this incident ?

See the family's statement (which is currently posted above, post #25).

 

[imstilla.grandma]

*This paper explains that in Illinois children of any age can be arrested, charged, and adjudicated delinquent ,and calls for Illinois to set a minimum age of criminal responsibility at age 14 so that children ages 13 and under cannot be arrested or charged in either juvenile or adult criminal systems. It recommends the State support healthy childhood development by providing children with supportive services in lieu of traditional juvenile justice responses and focus on restorative and rehabilitative efforts that not only decrease the rates of recidivism but also allow for a more purposeful and reasoned responses to children in need. Following an introduction, Section 1 describes research on brain development which shows that children are limited in their ability to reason, control impulses, and understand the consequences of their actions. Section 2 reviews what happened to a child when he or she comes into conflict with the law, including data on rates of arrest and detention of Illinois children and adolescents, and provides an overview of the evolution of Illinois laws related to children and adolescents in conflict with the law.

https://www.luc.edu/media/lucedu/law/centers/childlaw/pdfs/incapable_of_criminal_intent.pdf