IL IL - Barbara, 15, & Patricia Grimes, 13, Chicago, 27 Dec 1956

[Snick1946]

Ok, so I read the whole thread. So the dishwasher Bennie. He worked at a restaurant with cooler refrigerator unit. And possibly a freezing unit. (Just putting that out there)
I find it very suspicious that the man who found the bodies went back to get his wife and also worked where it was a seasonal place with a freezer. Did he have an alibi? Was this why he went for the wife. Was she the alibi?
Now the guard rail pictures. There are so many people messing it up its a crime scene. It was wet and muddy maybe a skin of snow. Evidence could have been trampled. Or not found like foot prints. Kleenex or anything really.
If this case wasn't looked at as a advancement to a sherif to become mayor. Or people worried about what dad will think and say.
I wonder if the 15 year old would talk now.
They had to have died that night. Their idol spoke to them. They would have been in awe. And would have hurried home.

I was not aware that the guy who found them worked at place with a freezer- interesting, huh? I agree that something could be found even now if authorities were at all willng to go back and look at evidence with benefits of modern technology. I think there is a remaining sense of embarrassment this thing wasn't solved then. Maybe they want to just keep it as it is.

Sheriff Lohmann was an interesting guy. I think I read he had no apparent qualifications to even be Cook county sheriff- but in the era of the Daley machine that made no difference. His ambition wasn't to be mayor, Daley had a hammerlock on that and stayed for over twenty more years. He was hoping for his boss' blessing to run as the machine candidate for Governor in 1960- his ambitions blew up in his face following the tumultuous confrontation with the girls' mother at the press conference. He was damaged goods after that. Not sure how long he remained as sheriff but he did go ahead and try to run for governor in 1960 without the machine blessing and got trounced in the primary. This seems to be one of those cases that hurt everyone involved in it.

 

[Rainstorm]

Ah sorry, machine candidate governor. Not mayor. It us sad that a lot of these cases were doomed or evidence was ruined or lost.
Maybe those who need to come forward will. As suggested in this thread.
I also read the Prarie ghost link. Which paints a slight different twist.

 

[Snick1946]

Another interesting link on this case:

http://troytaylorbooks.blogspot.com/2012/12/thetwo-lost-girls-hauntingmystery-of.html

Looks like a book review but in some detail- has a lot of information, some of which we've discussed.

 

[Claudette]

Would the fact that there was relatively little physical damage done to the bodies of Barbara and Patricia - I say relatively, in comparison to the extreme violence committed on victims by killers such as say, Jack the Ripper - also point to a younger killer or killer?

Could be a number of things - inexperience, fear, death being an accident, or just a different MO.

 

[Claudette]

Hi there, just a few thoughts based on the Wikipedia page. I think that their autopsy should be re looked at if it hasn't all ready. This covering up stuff due to their reputations, is silly.
With the advancement in dna and testing and all if it maybe they could find the truth.
Is it possible that they may have been ruffied or some other drug. Mixed with alcohol. It seems to me that could explain a few things. They were clearly held somewhere.
I think it is wrong to cohurse a confession from anyone. I get that they want to get the bad guy. And they had no clue what to do.
I would also recheck that kid who failed the lie test.

Agree, I question the COD too because of all of the above. I feel like something was missed, whether intentionally or out of ignorance at the time. I mean, rat bites and puncture wounds from ice picks? I'm surprised there isn't more discussion around that alone. What was the point of the ice picks if it was post-mortem, to test if they were dead? Why in the world were there rat bites? Rats wouldn't have been outside in the dead of winter, would they? I could see maybe in an urban area like a Chicago alley, but their location looks like it was a fairly isolated place.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Agree, I question the COD too because of all of the above. I feel like something was missed, whether intentionally or out of ignorance at the time. I mean, rat bites and puncture wounds from ice picks? I'm surprised there isn't more discussion around that alone. What was the point of the ice picks if it was post-mortem, to test if they were dead? Why in the world were there rat bites? Rats wouldn't have been outside in the dead of winter, would they? I could see maybe in an urban area like a Chicago alley, but their location looks like it was a fairly isolated place.

Rat bites could have come from within a freezer if the girls bodies were kept there. Rats will survive in a freezer as long as there is a food source. The ice pick type marks could have been the result of chipping away ice that may have formed on Patricia's chest if she were placed directly under the chilling unit, which would drip during defrost cycles.

There was extensive injury to the bodies...Patricia had a large piece of scalp removed, which in my opinion may have torn off as her body was removed and ice bonded her head to the floor. Both girls had bruising to the face and body.

Patricia likely died on her stomach although she was found lying on her back. I attribute this to what apears to be blanching on her pelvic bones, knees, and the tops of her feet. Her right arm was bent at an awkward angle as well like someone waving hello.

Its also possible she may have died on her knees somewhat like this.



Here is an example of blanching.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Rat bites could have come from within a freezer if the girls bodies were kept there. Rats will survive in a freezer as long as there is a food source. The ice pick type marks could have been the result of chipping away ice that may have formed on Patricia's chest if she were placed directly under the chilling unit, which would drip during defrost cycles.

There was extensive injury to the bodies...Patricia had a large piece of scalp removed, which in my opinion may have torn off as her body was removed and ice bonded her head to the floor. Both girls had bruising to the face and body.

Patricia likely died on her stomach although she was found lying on her back. I attribute this to what apears to be blanching on her pelvic bones, knees, and the tops of her feet. Her right arm was bent at an awkward angle as well like someone waving hello.

Its also possible she may have died on her knees somewhat like this.

View attachment 60236

Here is an example of blanching.
View attachment 60238

Thank you for your input again GT. Your theory about how Barbara got the ice pick marks sounds perfectly plausible. Did forensics mention bleeding from the ice pick wounds? If there wasn't any bleeding then it's pretty certain they were made after death, and that backs up your theory. Your idea of the position Patricia was in when she died seems pretty on the mark too, by the blood settling as it did, and the head and arm position.

Did they use cadaver dogs in that era or on this case? If they had checked all the large industrial freezers and meat lockers in a close proximity to where the bodies were found, they might have picked up a scent. Of what I've read it doesn't seem like LE had a clue that they were stored before being dumped.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Thank you for your input again GT. Your theory about how Barbara got the ice pick marks sounds perfectly plausible. Did forensics mention bleeding from the ice pick wounds? If there wasn't any bleeding then it's pretty certain they were made after death, and that backs up your theory. Your idea of the position Patricia was in when she died seems pretty on the mark too, by the blood settling as it did, and the head and arm position.

Did they use cadaver dogs in that era or on this case? If they had checked all the large industrial freezers and meat lockers in a close proximity to where the bodies were found, they might have picked up a scent. Of what I've read it doesn't seem like LE had a clue that they were stored before being dumped.

There was no bleeding and the pathology team determined that the puncture wounds were inflicted after death.
Cadaver dogs were not in use back then, in fact police investigation in general was fairly incompetent.
The only location that I am aware of that likely had a large cooler or freezer is the Santa Fe Speedway which I mentioned in earlier posts.
Don't forget that the guy who found the bodies...Leonard Prescott, was a first cousin to the owners of that facility.
Otherwise, much of that area for miles around was undeveloped land.

If you wish to learn in depth how police investigated at the time, I will recommend a book to you that you can purchase very inexpensively from Amazon.com It is entitled Three Boys Missing and it was written by Detective James Jack. The book is about the Peterson Schuessler murders of 1955 in Chicago which occured 14 months before the Grimes Sisters murder and Jack gives great detail about the methods of investigation on the case..

Here is a description of the book. from the Amazon page.

James Jack was the first detective called in on a shocking triple murder in Chicago in October 1955. Three boys from a nice North Side neighborhood disappeared after walking downtown to a Sunday night movie. Their nude, beaten bodies were found in a forest preserve. Despite massive media attention and the efforts of several law-enforcement agencies, for weeks, then months, then years, police had no solid clues, and eventually different detectives entered the investigation.

You can purchase it used for US$1.59
http://www.amazon.com/Three-Boys-Missing-Pedophilia-Underworld/dp/B005ZOLL4A

 

[December]

I think think the protecting of their reputations might have been more in statements to. The media... for the mother's sake. but, as far as the actual investigation... I would think the police would be more interested in the facts. I mean, this is the Chicago police.. they would understand the kind of things are that may have happened. Mooo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

@ GT, thanks for recommendation of 'three boys missing', definitely going to buy and read up on this case.

 

[Gunther Toody]

I think think the protecting of their reputations might have been more in statements to. The media... for the mother's sake. but, as far as the actual investigation... I would think the police would be more interested in the facts. I mean, this is the Chicago police.. they would understand the kind of things are that may have happened. Mooo

From our interview with the retired editor...
The Back Of The Yards Council was a strong political neighborhood organization at the time (and still is) and coordinated with the Mayor's office on what was to be printed in the media. The Mayor himself, lived not too far from the Grimes home so it became a neighborhood thing as well. So while all parties wanted to spare the family from mudslinging and gossip, it became an issue of protecting the neighborhood's reputation as well.

Consequently....local media were "encouraged" to only print the positive aspects of the case rather than the dirty details. If you search through various news articles, the Chicago Tribune is really pretty vague while out of area or newswire stories dig depper.

 

[Rainstorm]

I had a thought of ice pick marks. Maybe the killer was in a rush. Perhaps it was Prescott. He showed them his speed way. He wanted to impress them. After he had liquord them up. (Was there alcohol in their systems. How much?)
So he had to run but he was having fun with the girls. So he said stay here and wait. They were like no we have to go home. He is like no come in here and wait for me. Pick out something to eat.
They go into the freezer and he leaves. (Maybe the freezer is the kind that looks on the Inside)
He tried to get back to the girls. But he comes back to late. He tries to wake them up. Causing the bruises. And other marks. pokes them with ice pick.
He hasn't a clue what to do. He leaves them. He firgit tge freezer locks on the inside.And figures he will take them outside on hus way home it has started to get colder.He feels horrible.
He decides the girls need to be found right away. He goes to get his wife to see if it is believed. He is in total shock he took the clothes to make sure his prints were not on the girls anywhere. He was worried about losing his job.
It was a terrible accident.

 

[Gunther Toody]

I had a thought of ice pick marks. Maybe the killer was in a rush. Perhaps it was Prescott. He showed them his speed way. He wanted to impress them. After he had liquord them up. (Was there alcohol in their systems. How much?)
So he had to run but he was having fun with the girls. So he said stay here and wait. They were like no we have to go home. He is like no come in here and wait for me. Pick out something to eat.
They go into the freezer and he leaves. (Maybe the freezer is the kind that looks on the Inside)
He tried to get back to the girls. But he comes back to late. He tries to wake them up. Causing the bruises. And other marks. pokes them with ice pick.
He hasn't a clue what to do. He leaves them. He firgit tge freezer locks on the inside.And figures he will take them outside on hus way home it has started to get colder.He feels horrible.
He decides the girls need to be found right away. He goes to get his wife to see if it is believed. He is in total shock he took the clothes to make sure his prints were not on the girls anywhere. He was worried about losing his job.
It was a terrible accident.

While Prescott's actions merit further investigation, we have nothing conclusive that links him to the crime. We don't really consider him a suspect at this point. There was no alcohol found in the systems of either girl. My personal theory at this point is that the girls were killed the night they disappeared and taken either to Santa Fe Speedway due to its isolation and the fact that it was closed for the season or a storage shed that was located near where the girls were found. Potential evidence was found in that shed but I am not aware of the depth of investigation of it.

Again my opinion here...What made the killers move the bodies was Walter Kranz phone call to the police indicating that he had a dream that the bodies were at Santa Fe Speedway. The proximity of all the relevant locations are on this map.

<modsnip>

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Well done GT and McK for lining up this interview. Fascinated to hear what they have to say and if they reopen the case!


Re: three boys missing, I read the preview of the book, very engaging story and introduction to Jack and his partner, Czech. I could feel the torment poor Mr Peterson felt when he came in to report his son and friends missing. A nightmare for any parent.
Uncanny how the boys had gone to the movies like the G sisters. The book has pictures, a couple of Hansen as a young man with another male friend and one with Beverly. I can imagine the boys wouldn't have thought much of hitching a ride with him, he looked like an amiable young guy. I had originally only seen the picture of him as an old man.

Another book available is Murder Gone Cold by Tamara Shaffer, about the Grimes sisters. Have you read it GT and if it's worth getting too? There is no preview available but the reviews are quite good.
I'm wondering if either books will link both crimes in any way.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Well done GT and McK for lining up this interview. Fascinated to hear what they have to say and if they reopen the case!


Re: three boys missing, I read the preview of the book, very engaging story and introduction to Jack and his partner, Czech. I could feel the torment poor Mr Peterson felt when he came in to report his son and friends missing. A nightmare for any parent.
Uncanny how the boys had gone to the movies like the G sisters. The book has pictures, a couple of Hansen as a young man with another male friend and one with Beverly. I can imagine the boys wouldn't have thought much of hitching a ride with him, he looked like an amiable young guy. I had originally only seen the picture of him as an old man.

Another book available is Murder Gone Cold by Tamara Shaffer, about the Grimes sisters. Have you read it GT and if it's worth getting too? There is no preview available but the reviews are quite good.
I'm wondering if either books will link both crimes in any way.

Tamara Shaffer's book is very good for getting the facts of the Grimes case. She interviewed the family in depth for the work. She also provides minute details that no other work does. I have talked with Ms. Shaffer (she lives in Chicago) and she is the real deal. You will not be diasppointed in her book.

Here is an article written by her.
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/death-and-the-maidens/Content?oid=892961

 

[Bargle]

Thank you Snick, I found it very interesting seeing the area in a video format, the layout of the land and the actual spot the girls bodies were found. Another poster wondered how Prescott saw the bodies from the road, and after watching the video, there is no way he could have, the guard rail would have obscured the view. Also, the road doesn't come down from a hill for him to sight them from further away.

Really? It looks there is a hill to me. Not a steep one, but a hill. It is difficult to tell. There's not much in the picture frame to act as a reference except for the fire hydrant which is fairly short. In the picture back in post 168, the road looks to rise away from the people standing there. It's hard to tell if this is because there is a hill or the photographer is standing on something and pointing the camera down. One of the girls was positioned at almost 90% to the road, so her legs would have extended out enough to possibly be seen. Perhaps the witness saw her legs or feet and swerved over slightly to see better. There is a definite hill after you pass by, so it is also possible he saw them in the rear view mirror. MOO

 

[Gunther Toody]

Really? It looks there is a hill to me. Not a steep one, but a hill. It is difficult to tell. There's not much in the picture frame to act as a reference except for the fire hydrant which is fairly short. In the picture back in post 168, the road looks to rise away from the people standing there. It's hard to tell if this is because there is a hill or the photographer is standing on something and pointing the camera down. One of the girls was positioned at almost 90% to the road, so her legs would have extended out enough to possibly be seen. Perhaps the witness saw her legs or feet and swerved over slightly to see better. There is a definite hill after you pass by, so it is also possible he saw them in the rear view mirror. MOO

Here is another angle that gives some idea of the relationship between the road and where they were found. This was taken while the bodies were still there to the best of my knowledge.

 

[TedMac]

Tamara Shaffer's book is very good for getting the facts of the Grimes case. She interviewed the family in depth for the work. She also provides minute details that no other work does. I have talked with Ms. Shaffer (she lives in Chicago) and she is the real deal. You will not be diasppointed in her book.


Here is an article written by her.
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/death-and-the-maidens/Content?oid=892961

GT...On page 96 of Ms Shaffer's book, she writes about the 2 "20ish aged men" who sought the assistance of a service station mechanic for their car that had broken down just a few miles from where the girls bodies were discovered. This occurred 3 days prior to the bodies being located. The mechanic mentioned that the car was dark green and had either a blanket or tarp in the boot of the car. She seemed to think this vehicle contained Patticia and Barbara's bodies and these two men were the killers.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Gunther Toody]

GT...On page 96 of Ms Shaffer's book, she writes about the 2 "20ish aged men" who sought the assistance of a service station mechanic for their car that had broken down just a few miles from where the girls bodies were discovered. This occurred 3 days prior to the bodies being located. The mechanic mentioned that the car was dark green and had either a blanket or tarp in the boot of the car. She seemed to think this vehicle contained Patticia and Barbara's bodies and these two men were the killers.

What are your thoughts on this?

I have heard that story as well. Unfortunately, I can't coroborate it with anything else. If I recall, there was something that drew the mechanics attention. But it really doesn't make sense to call a mechanic with dead bodies in the car. At the very least, I would think they would hide the bodies until the car was running again and the mechanic left.

 

[Gunther Toody]

I need some help finding a newspaper article if anyone would care to chip in.
I don't recall the title but the article was about a snow plow driver whose name I believe was Elmer Lumpp.
Lumpp claimed that a few days prior to the girls being discovered, he was standing no more than 50 feet from that exact location and he is positive the bodies were not there.

I need a link to the article if it can be found.

I believe the article title is "Plow Driver Denies Girls Were There" or something similar.
It would have been written between 1957 and 1958