IL IL - Barbara, 15, & Patricia Grimes, 13, Chicago, 27 Dec 1956

[Gunther Toody]

Hello everyone.
I want to chime in a little on the Grimes sisters case.
The girls autopsy revealed that they still had the same food in their stomach from the meal they had at home prior to going to the theater. The Coroner estimated that they were killed within 4 hours of ingesting the food.

It was also revealed that one of the girls had sexual intercourse before their deaths (probably rape)...a revelation that cost investigator Harry Glos, his job.

If that is the case, then a simple timeline would seem to indicate that...
from the time the girls ate to the time they arrived at the theater would be no less than 30 minutes given that they walked the few blocks to Archer avenue bus stop. This is also assuming that they caught the bus very fast.

From Archer/Damen to the Brighton theater would probably entail at least 5 stops in between. Lets assume for a moment that they arrived at least 15 minutes before showtime.

According to friends and family they had seen "Love Me Tender" at least 15 times already, so I imagine they knew the show schedule by heart.

The movie lasted 1 hour 29 minutes.

After which they may have arrived at the bus stop near the theater about 15 minutes or so after the movie ended.

they were seen to have gotten on the eastbound Archer bus by witnesses.

For simplicity sake, let's use 6:00 PM as the time they ate their meal.

6:00 had dinner at home
6:15 left home and walked to Archer to catch the bus
6:20 Caught the bus to the show (just an assumption of a best case possibility)

6:45 Arrived at the show (again, assuming bus made a few stops between Damen and the Brighton theater)

7:00 The movie started

8:44 The movie ended.

9:00 The girls arrived at the bus stop for the trip home.

This leaves a one hour period at best, to the time during which the girls were killed.

Its possible that Ken Hansen was involved in thier death due to the fact that he and his wife owned a horse stable a few miles from the location that the bodies were found but it would take nearly that whole remaining hour to arrive at the Hansen stables if that actually was the location of their deaths.

Stable: Bro-Ken H Stables
8214 S Kean
Willow Springs

Girls found on German Church Road

Here is a Yahoo Map of the drive between Hansen's stable and the location of the girls bodies.
http://maps.yahoo.com/directions/?l...&d=German Church Rd, Willow Springs, IL 60525


As for the dumping ground, Willow Springs at that time was a very corrupt municipality loaded with mob activity. Consequently, I might look into the father's activities and whether he ran afoul of the mob in some way. The parents were divorced at the time due to some issues with the father that I can't recall at the moment.

At least this is food for thought.

 

[STANDREID]

Thanks for that time-line GT.

I would think there's a record of exactly when the movie ended. Then I would wonder how reliable the last bus stop sighting was. I also read somewhere that the girls actually died from exposure and it just doesn't seem like there was enough time for all of this to happen so I would have to question the 4 hour estimate.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Thanks for that time-line GT.

I would think there's a record of exactly when the movie ended. Then I would wonder how reliable the last bus stop sighting was. I also read somewhere that the girls actually died from exposure and it just doesn't seem like there was enough time for all of this to happen so I would have to question the 4 hour estimate.

I used the 6:00 time for simplicty sake.
Actually, the girls were spotted in the "popcorn line" at 9:30 which was the intermission time between showings.
I worked at the Brighton as a kid as an usher in 1965 and vaguely recall the intermission times to be about 20 minutes.

Three pathologists concurred on the fact that the girls had their evening meal contents still in their stomach which would indicate a very narrow time frame for their death.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ISVSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=A3YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1751,3632936

The four hours was their determination based on that.

As far as Bidwell...
As is often the case, especially in Chicago...when the pressure is on to solve a case suspects are leaned on until they confess.
Bidwell later recanted.

I have read that dozens had confessed to the Grimes murders.
I think they were denying the stomach contens scenario to make the Bidwell confession stand.

It could very well be that the girls were simply offered a ride home and met up with the wrong people.

 

[STANDREID]

As I said previously, I remember the case when it was in the news at the time including when the girls were missing and later when they were found plus all the subsequent Bennie "The dishwasher" Bedwell business. Thinking back, I'm a little surprised that two missing girls in Chicago got so much coverage here in Central Illinois. At that time, there were paperboys who delivered Chicago newspapers locally so perhaps that had something to do with it.

 

[STANDREID]

I see that the Wiki entry lists four "Suspects" and additionally they mention Kenneth Hansen relating to Silas Jayne. According to Getting Away With Murder, Barry Zander Cook was also questioned about murders but passed a polygraph test indicating that he had no guilty knowledge of the crime. Maybe it was common terminology but I wonder why they didn't just say no knowledge.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Here is an article on the info I heard on the radio (WBBM am 780) this morning.

Now, a retired police officer and a group of amateur sleuths are hoping to piece together clues to solve the case.



The group plans to meet Saturday at the McKinley Park library to review the facts and offer potential theories.

"I thought nobody should give up on this case," said Ray Johnson, a retired West Chicago police officer who is coordinating the effort.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-talk-grimes-cold-case-20130530,0,3188265.story

Interesting article. I wonder if this group is open to the public? No time is mentioned for the meeting at the library, but it sounds interesting.

On a side note, I sure wish he would look at Debbie Fijan's unsolved murder. Especially since it happened in West Chicago, and he is a retired West Chicago detective. lease: One can hope he'd be interested in reviewing it after he solves the Grimes case?

I am a member of that group and they are totally legit.
There are Grimes relatives still around including younger brother James who is also part of the group.

There is a lot of information on the FB site so check it out when you get time.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/GrimesSisters/
As for the unnamed suspect... He was convicted of killing Bonnie Leigh Scott and dumping her body at 95th and LaGrange Rd. around that same time. He confessed to the Grimes murders but later recanted his confession.
Supposedly, he phoned Loretta Grimes after the murders and detailed to her how he undressed the girls.
He also told her of a unique physical characteristic of the younger sister...her toes crossed.
That information was not released by the police and could have only been known to the family or the killer.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Welcome to WS peanutbell! Thank you for the information on the meeting at the library Saturday. I'm closer to the West Chicago area with a young child so I can't make it, but hope you have a good turn out. Will there be anywhere to get a summary of how the meeting went for those who can't make it?

Also, is it ok to post some questions here at WS? Not everyone here uses FaceBook and it would be great if we could post some questions here.

I have a few immediate questions. With regards to the CM from Villa Park, IL theory, is there any way to tie him to the Brighton theatre area, or the area where the Grimes sisters resided?

According to this Ebay link, CM resided with his parents and sister at 655 S. Yale, Villa Park, IL. There were several theatres nearby Villa Park (Glen Ellyn, Lombard, Villa Park, Elmhurst and Wheaton all had theatres).

Villa Park had a theatre, The Villard Theatre, which closed in the late 1950's. It was on the 100 S. block of Myrtle Ave.

Here is a map of the three locations. CM's home on Yale in VP. The theatre on Myrtle in VP and the Brighton theatre. It's quite a distance considering so many other theatres between the locations.


http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=655+S+Yale+Ave,+Villa+Park,+IL&daddr=128+South+Myrtle+Avenue,+Villa+Park,+IL+to:41.8699413,-87.8336384+to:4223+Archer+Avenue,+Chicago,+IL&hl=en&sll=41.84399,-87.84256&sspn=0.255251,0.438766&geocode=FVT-fgIdToLB-inp3moeGk0OiDGh_LvfzYGbMQ%3BFeojfwIdJazB-im5T6It30wOiDEhnjdZHUWXCQ%3BFXXifgId2sPD-in3W86TEjUOiDENIycuibvoTA%3BFboQfgIdqM_F-imvAp-Z_zEOiDGNvTgLXtoudw&oq=4223+S+Ar&mra=dpe&mrsp=2&sz=11&via=2&t=m&z=11

I would find CW as a possibility more logical if a reason to tie him to the Brighton Park area existed. Not that I do not find him viable, I just don't know enough to have more than just questions at the moment.


ETA: I edited the map to route the drive to Brighton Park via I-290 to 50/Cicero Ave as that is a more likely route to take from Villa Park than taking 294 S.

Earlier in his life, CM lived with his parents and sister at 77th and Kenwood which is a little South and East of the girls Bridgeport home.

 

[December]

Why would anyone protect the identity of the murderer of Bonny? He's a murderer! I don't understand why on earth he was let run free after a mere 11 years. I'm sure it was because he was a model prisoner.

 

[Medea2]

Hello
i have a question (sorry if it sounds harsh) - some reports say there were evidences that both girls were "sexually active", some say they were both molested - and that anyway this information may have been withheld not to hurt the family or discredit the girls. Is there any reliable sources as to one or the other? It seems to me it can have very different implications. and it opens many possibilities: family abuses, prostitution, boyfriends, etc.

 

[Medea2]

9:00 The girls arrived at the bus stop for the trip home.

This leaves a one hour period at best, to the time during which the girls were killed.

Hello
According to this text and the book by the same author, the girls left home at about 7:30pm and their mother expected them back by 11:45 only. They might have seen the film 2 time or only the late show; I don't remember reading about that.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/death-and-the-maidens/Content?oid=892961

 

[Medea2]

Did he commit any other crimes after being released?

It doesn't seem so or anyway if he did he wasn't caught. He was married and had 2 daughters. His name was Charles Melquist (I don't see why we can't name him, it is everywhere on the web, you just have to google his name or the victim's to make the link).

 

[Medea2]

curious though, how old was gacy at that point?

He was named too in another very famous crime from Chicago that have similarities to the Grimes case, the Peterson-Schuessler murders. The boys went to places he frequented too. Weird...

 

[Winward1]

The cause or causes of these deaths, or lack thereof, in this case, is strange. What county did the forensic work? Did Chicago PD assist?

 

[Winward1]

He was named too in another very famous crime from Chicago that have similarities to the Grimes case, the Peterson-Schuessler murders. The boys went to places he frequented too. Weird...

I've never read about Gacy being tied to the murder of women. IIRC, his first killing was in '68.

 

[STANDREID]

Hello
i have a question (sorry if it sounds harsh) - some reports say there were evidences that both girls were "sexually active", some say they were both molested - and that anyway this information may have been withheld not to hurt the family or discredit the girls. Is there any reliable sources as to one or the other? It seems to me it can have very different implications. and it opens many possibilities: family abuses, prostitution, boyfriends, etc.

I hadn't heard that and won't believe it, if by sexually active they mean that they were not virgins, without some significant evidence. It sounds like something a suspect's defense attorney would say in an attempt to blacken the girls' reputation. If by sexually active they mean masturbation then that is normal and unimportant.

 

[Bargle]

I've taken it to mean that the girls had been raped after being kidnapped. Because of the snowfall that came on Jan. 9, it is thought the bodies hadn't been laying where they were found before then or they would have been seen. The girls disappeared on Dec. 28. I think they were held captive for several days before dying.

 

[December]

Did they have boyfriends? Maybe they just did a few things with their boyfriends? I only mention this because I'm wondering if their trip to the theater wasn't only to see Elvis's movie, but to spend some time with boyfriends (which, obviously, there are only so many things they could do while watching a movie).

Then, maybe, somehow someone really took advantage of them and took them away and did rape them. If the rapist wasn't too rough, it might just look like they were 'sexually active'. the freezing temperatures may have erased some signs of what happened.

speculation and i don't mean to be disrespectful

but someone could have spread rumors about them that were greatly exaggerated to outright false.

 

[Medea2]

I hadn't heard that and won't believe it, if by sexually active they mean that they were not virgins, without some significant evidence. It sounds like something a suspect's defense attorney would say in an attempt to blacken the girls' reputation..

I don't know exactly, it just from to texts I read which seems to implie different things:

"Harry Glos, who died in 1994, had announced that one girl was molested; but Richard Wessel Sr., who as an administrative assistant to Sheriff Lohman saw the autopsy slides, told me years later there was evidence that both sisters had been. He speculated that Coroner McCarron had religious reasons for stating otherwise."

"Harry Glos, who died in 1994, had released information that one of the girls had been sexually active but later reports from those who have seen the autopsy slides say there is evidence that both of them may have been."

English is not my first language, but in French it woud mean very different things, so I was wondering what it could implie... And I can't find where exactly, but someone said there was no clear sign of sexual violence (ie they were not virgin, but maybe they were not raped before the murder).

 

[Medea2]

I've never read about Gacy being tied to the murder of women. IIRC, his first killing was in '68.

I don't think he was responsable, it is just interesting as backround information about the time and place. We often hear it was a more innocent time when cities were safer. But between him and the likes of Kenneth Hansen and Silas Jayne, we see there was a lot of predators nearby.

 

[STANDREID]

English is not my first language, but in French it woud mean very different things, so I was wondering what it could implie... And I can't find where exactly, but someone said there was no clear sign of sexual violence (ie they were not virgin, but maybe they were not raped before the murder).

You are doing well but I don't think the idiom "sexually active" would ever be used here in the States to describe rape or molestation. It would simply mean that the girls had willingly engaged in acts of sex normally beyond masturbation.