IL IL - Barbara, 15, & Patricia Grimes, 13, Chicago, 27 Dec 1956

[Gunther Toody]

Regarding Kranz: (from the same article linked above)



Also, the caption beneath the yellow sweater found at Santa Fe Speedway was determined not to belong to either sister.

Perhaps it's as simple as Kranz coming up with the Santa Fe theory, planting the yellow sweater at the concession stand because he read or heard about the sisters been seen at the concession stand at the theater and that they had been wearing yellow.

Lie detectors of the time were very simple instruments that measured blood pressure, breathing, and sweating. Virtually any question could give a false positive or negative depending on the individual and whether he was nervous or not. Lie detectors were the new toy of the day for law enforcement and unfortunately, too much emphasis was placed on the operators skill in interpretation and subjectivity of the outcome.

A typical lie detector from the time.



Mrs. Grimes did state that the sweater found did not belong to her daughters, but I remain open to the fact that with all the stress she was under she may have been mistaken or just did not want to believe it true. There are other links to Santa Fe beyond the sweater. Leonard Prescott, who, along with his wife found the bodies was a nephew to the owners of the park as well as a part time maintanance man at the facility.

Prescott lived at 87th and County Line Rd. which was 1/2 mile from where the bodies were found. Prescott went "looking for clues" a few weeks after the discovery and managed to find a wallet and some other items in an area police had thoroughly searched earlier.

I can't find a lot of information on Walter Krantz other than the fact that he was a pipefitter for the railroad and a photographer. I have a copy of a rather cryptic letter that was sent to the FBI and Chicago Crime Commission several years ago that names Krantz as the perpetrator. I don't have any information if there was any follow-up. It seems that Krantz, for all the suspicion that was placed on him simply disappeared into history.



If we apply the means, motive and opportunity theorem to Krantz, we have a hard time establishing a motive since we can't find any direct connection to the Grimes family

 

[STANDREID]

What, if any, witness can we say for sure wasn't mistaken or, for purposes of gaining attention, lying? I'm speaking of all the witnesses between Mrs. Grimes and Mr. Prescott.

 

[Gunther Toody]

What, if any, witness can we say for sure wasn't mistaken or, for purposes of gaining attention, lying? I speaking of all the witnesses between Mrs. Grimes and Mr. Prescott.

It is tricky when it comes to witnesses in a case like this. Most people are sincere and want to help but I think that some of the eyewitness accounts are merely wishful thinking by folks who caught up in the moment. For myself, I tend to believe witnesses that knew the girls personally, (like the third girl in the theater). Next, I take a strong look at people who claim to have seen the girls based on clothing matching the description. I don't necessarily accept what they say, but I don't discount it either. I try to find other accounts that corroborate it.

I least accept accounts that put the girls in locations that are too bizarre to believe, like sitting in a bar or trying to rent a room in a hotel.

 

[TedMac]

Lie detectors of the time were very simple instruments that measured blood pressure, breathing, and sweating. Virtually any question could give a false positive or negative depending on the individual and whether he was nervous or not. Lie detectors were the new toy of the day for law enforcement and unfortunately, too much emphasis was placed on the operators skill in interpretation and subjectivity of the outcome.

A typical lie detector from the time.

View attachment 58298

Mrs. Grimes did state that the sweater found did not belong to her daughters, but I remain open to the fact that with all the stress she was under she may have been mistaken or just did not want to believe it true. There are other links to Santa Fe beyond the sweater. Leonard Prescott, who, along with his wife found the bodies was a nephew to the owners of the park as well as a part time maintanance man at the facility.

Prescott lived at 87th and County Line Rd. which was 1/2 mile from where the bodies were found. Prescott went "looking for clues" a few weeks after the discovery and managed to find a wallet and some other items in an area police had thoroughly searched earlier.

I can't find a lot of information on Walter Krantz other than the fact that he was a pipefitter for the railroad and a photographer. I have a copy of a rather cryptic letter that was sent to the FBI and Chicago Crime Commission several years ago that names Krantz as the perpetrator. I don't have any information if there was any follow-up. It seems that Krantz, for all the suspicion that was placed on him simply disappeared into history.

View attachment 58303

If we apply the means, motive and opportunity theorem to Krantz, we have a hard time establishing a motive since we can't find any direct connection to the Grimes family

BBM Didn't Ms. Grimes initially identify the yellow sweater as being one the girls wore that night and later retract her statement? That could have been the result of pressure and stress like you mentioned.

 

[TedMac]

Question for GT...During your vast research of this case, have you been able to discover what the 4 teens told the Police about that night? I am aware that 2 of them bailed out at the bowling alley and the other 2 left in the car with the girls. I thinkit would be very helpful to know what they told the investigators.

 

[Gunther Toody]

BBM Didn't Ms. Grimes initially identify the yellow sweater as being one the girls wore that night and later retract her statement? That could have been the result of pressure and stress like you mentioned.

I don't recall if Mrs. Grimes initially identified the sweater.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Question for GT...During your vast research of this case, have you been able to discover what the 4 teens told the Police about that night? I am aware that 2 of them bailed out at the bowling alley and the other 2 left in the car with the girls. I thinkit would be very helpful to know what they told the investigators.

I don't know exactly what they told the police. At that time, there were very strict laws on admissiblilty in court and minors rights were protected. One of the boys was only 15, and the rest were 17. There is information that a lie detector test was given to one of the boys who left the vehicle and he was cleared along with the 15 year old.

The other two were to be turned over to the Sex Bureau of the States Attorney's office in the morning but apparently they were also released to their parents that night. These events occured at about 2:30 AM on the night the girls disappeared after the police were called to the home of one of the boys by his father, who got into an argument with the boy about his drinking and staying out late.
I do not have information on what transpired at the police station.

Here is where help from the rest of you comes in. If any of you know a Chicago or Cook County Cop, or attorney, or some other person who may have access to the archival information on the case, maybe we could get this information.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Here is a snip from the Chicago Tribune dated January 23, 1957.
This is the day after the bodies were discovered.

Leonard Prescott finds the girls.


This occured at 1:30 in the aternoon when Prescott was allegedly on his way to a store.

Take a moment to look at these images of the location that the bodies were found....pay close attention to the guardrail.


How thick do you think that guardrail is?
twelve inches, perhaps?







In comparing all of these images, one thing is very clear to me and I would like your opinion.
To me, it is impossible for Prescott to have seen the bodies they way he claims. Due to the thickness of the guardrail, the spacing of the posts, the depressed area the bodies were in and the elevation of the road. He was driving in the right lane and he would have us believe that he happened to glance left at just the right moment and see the bodies.
First, he would have had to have been directly abreast of the bodies due to the thickness of all of the guardrail components and the spacing of the posts.
Then, he would have had to have looked over at just the right moment as he was passing at ....maybe 35 miles per hour or more.

Then, instead of stopping or going directly to the police he went home to get his wife and child.
He claimed he was too shaken to leave the car and his wfie made the discovery.
Prescott was a young man at the time...about 27 years old. I would think he would rather his wife not observe something of that nature.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

GT, I agree, the bodies would be hard to see as you've described but what if the road from where he was driving was elevated? As he traveled down the hill he could see the bodies in the distance, he slowed down or pulled over. Unless the road is completely flat, then yes, all a bit fishy.

Imo, he knew they were dead bodies so drove home to bring wife as a witness, purely to protect himself. Clever thinking Mr Prescott.

 

[STANDREID]

Yes, it looks like Prescott would need to be driving a semi or a Greyhound Bus to be able to see the bodies as he drove by. I imagine he was doing something he wasn't proud of like taking a leak or illegally dumping some garbage.

 

[Gunther Toody]

GT, I agree, the bodies would be hard to see as you've described but what if the road from where he was driving was elevated? As he traveled down the hill he could see the bodies in the distance, he slowed down or pulled over. Unless the road is completely flat, then yes, all a bit fishy.

Imo, he knew they were dead bodies so drove home to bring wife as a witness, purely to protect himself. Clever thinking Mr Prescott.

I had not thought of that but it seems unlikely.
Here is the same road today from the same direction Prescott was travelling.

I know it may have changed over time but it hasn't too much. I remember going down this road back in the 80's and I was just there a few months ago investigating the scene.

Here is the weather at the time Prescott made the discovery.
It shows temp-windchill-dew point-humidity-wind direction and speed, and it states that it was foggy.


These readings are from Midway Airport, about 7 miles away from the scene.

 

[Cubby]

I don't know exactly what they told the police. At that time, there were very strict laws on admissiblilty in court and minors rights were protected. One of the boys was only 15, and the rest were 17. There is information that a lie detector test was given to one of the boys who left the vehicle and he was cleared along with the 15 year old.

The other two were to be turned over to the Sex Bureau of the States Attorney's office in the morning but apparently they were also released to their parents that night. These events occured at about 2:30 AM on the night the girls disappeared after the police were called to the home of one of the boys by his father, who got into an argument with the boy about his drinking and staying out late.
I do not have information on what transpired at the police station.

Here is where help from the rest of you comes in. If any of you know a Chicago or Cook County Cop, or attorney, or some other person who may have access to the archival information on the case, maybe we could get this information.

Would this information not be available through a FOIA request?

 

[Cubby]

Here is a snip from the Chicago Tribune dated January 23, 1957.
This is the day after the bodies were discovered.

Leonard Prescott finds the girls.
View attachment 58376

This occured at 1:30 in the aternoon when Prescott was allegedly on his way to a store.

Take a moment to look at these images of the location that the bodies were found....pay close attention to the guardrail.
View attachment 58377

How thick do you think that guardrail is?
twelve inches, perhaps?

View attachment 58380

View attachment 58381

View attachment 58382

In comparing all of these images, one thing is very clear to me and I would like your opinion.
To me, it is impossible for Prescott to have seen the bodies they way he claims. Due to the thickness of the guardrail, the spacing of the posts, the depressed area the bodies were in and the elevation of the road. He was driving in the right lane and he would have us believe that he happened to glance left at just the right moment and see the bodies.
First, he would have had to have been directly abreast of the bodies due to the thickness of all of the guardrail components and the spacing of the posts.
Then, he would have had to have looked over at just the right moment as he was passing at ....maybe 35 miles per hour or more.

Then, instead of stopping or going directly to the police he went home to get his wife and child.
He claimed he was too shaken to leave the car and his wfie made the discovery.
Prescott was a young man at the time...about 27 years old. I would think he would rather his wife not observe something of that nature.

According to the Chicago Reader, Prescott was 39 years old when he found the girls.
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/death-and-the-maidens/Content?oid=892961

Looking at the crime scene photo's the snow was very dark and dirty from having melted and traffic along the road. Pale skin against a dark background would stand out to me. He may have seen something bright/light from a distance and slowed down to see what it was.

 

[Cubby]

Regarding the yellow sweater. Has it ever been dna tested to determine if it belonged to one of the sisters?

Also, when was the description of their clothing made public? Assuming immediately following their disappearance, couldn't someone have just left the sweater for the attention?

 

[Gunther Toody]

Would this information not be available through a FOIA request?

Technically, it is still an open case and so far law enforcement will not share info.
We have tried contacting them.

 

[Gunther Toody]

I don't think the sweater was DNA tested. I do imagine it was handled by countless individuals though. I don't know how that would affect any DNA present.
The image of their clothing description from post #155 looks to have been published in the Tribune January 31st, 1956.

I am sure you are correct about Prescott's age. Sometimes I just post things from memory and sometimes I get it wrong.
Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Here is the weather chart for the month of January, 1957 at the recording station located in Midway Airport.
Look toward the bottom of the page...

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

The Weather Calender presented there shows actual temperature highs and lows as well as precipitation.
The precipitation is indicated by decimals like 0.10
When converting to snowfall 0.10 would be equivalent to about 1 inch of snow.

Here is a screen capture of the week leading up to their discovery.



The snowfall was minimal leading up to the 22nd, when it snowed over 8 inches that night.
Temps of 37, 37, 55, and 54 on the 22nd would have melted the little amount of snow that was on the ground in my opinion.

Other images of the crime scene show no snow present at all until later that day.

 

[Cubby]

I don't think the sweater was DNA tested. I do imagine it was handled by countless individuals though. I don't know how that would affect any DNA present.
The image of their clothing description from post #155 looks to have been published in the Tribune January 31st, 1956.

I am sure you are correct about Prescott's age. Sometimes I just post things from memory and sometimes I get it wrong.
Thanks for clarifying.

I'm a stickler for correct facts. :blush: I hear you about memory sometimes getting it wrong.

As for the DNA, I meant to rule it in our out as belonging to one of the girls. They could test for mt-dna to see if it matches the maternal line of the sisters. A living sibling could provide mt-dna. Or any female descendent on the maternal line. If they are unable to find any dna related to the grimes sisters, the shirt could probably be ruled out since it could not be directly tied to the sisters.

 

[Cubby]

Here is the weather chart for the month of January, 1957 at the recording station located in Midway Airport.
Look toward the bottom of the page...

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

The Weather Calender presented there shows actual temperature highs and lows as well as precipitation.
The precipitation is indicated by decimals like 0.10
When converting to snowfall 0.10 would be equivalent to about 1 inch of snow.

Here is a screen capture of the week leading up to their discovery.

View attachment 58400

The snowfall was minimal leading up to the 22nd, when it snowed over 8 inches that night.
Temps of 37, 37, 55, and 54 on the 22nd would have melted the little amount of snow that was on the ground in my opinion.

Other images of the crime scene show no snow present at all until later that day.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...cago-December-27-1956&p=10933711#post10933711

Ok, I see what you mean. When I first looked at the photo's you posted in the above post, I thought I saw what looked like melted dirty snow. The kind of dirty snow that looks black and is a few weeks old. Very different from a fresh snowfall.

I still think I see some very dirty snow along with dark leafs along the ground. Very pale clean bodies would contrast against the dark ground matter/dirty snow.

They were clearly too clean to have been left out in the elements for long. Someone kept them somewhere and moved them to the location they were found when the heat got too close.

Who had access to a place they could have kept the girls frozen for the amount of time they were missing?

 

[Gunther Toody]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...cago-December-27-1956&p=10933711#post10933711

Ok, I see what you mean. When I first looked at the photo's you posted in the above post, I thought I saw what looked like melted dirty snow. The kind of dirty snow that looks black and is a few weeks old. Very different from a fresh snowfall.

I still think I see some very dirty snow along with dark leafs along the ground. Very pale clean bodies would contrast against the dark ground matter/dirty snow.

They were clearly too clean to have been left out in the elements for long. Someone kept them somewhere and moved them to the location they were found when the heat got too close.

Who had access to a place they could have kept the girls frozen for the amount of time they were missing?

Leonard Prescott..
He was a part time maintanance man at Santa Fe Speedway and he was related to the owners.
I tried to make connections to any old time Santa Fe patrons through the Facebook page dedicated to the place but no one seemed to remember if there was a large cooler or freezer there.

I can remember going there as a kid and I know they were always crowded, so it stands to reason that they need a large cooler or freezer to accomodate perishable goods like soda, ice cream, burgers or hot dogs.