IL IL - Elfrieda 'Fritzie' Knaak, 29, Lake Bluff, 30 Oct 1928

[Ausgirl]

I wonder if electrical burns get worse even after you remove the person from the source

December - from what I recall of my research - yes, they certainly can get much worse. Much of the worst damage occurs in the hours afterwards, as damaged tissue starts to die off... this can take days, and cause horrific infections. Amputation of limbs is not uncommon.

The doctors wanted to amputate Elfrieda's hands and feet, but she was too far gone to make it through such surgery so they basically just made her as comfortable as they could and waited for her to pass...

I'm just thinking of different scenarios hoping one makes sense a little bit.

Me, too. Hopefully we can one day hit on something that does make perfect sense. As much as it possibly can, anyway...

Robin --- LOL, "Legs Diamond" is an awesome gangster name, isn't it?

Somebody out there -somewhere- knows more about this case... I have to believe that, and hope one day they'll speak up. Or some other evidence turns up in some old house being renovated.. something, you know?

I am still amazed at all the things I have learned during the course of sleuthing this case. If anything good could possibly come from Elfrieda's terrible suffering, it's that almost a century since her passing, she is still inspiring and uplifting others in some way.

 

[Robin Hood]

I might have a dig around for some relatives or folk associated to the main players, shake a few trees and see what falls out.

 

[Ausgirl]

Hopefully, no nuts!

yes I went there :facepalm:

Good luck! If anyone can shake it up, you can RH. <3

 

[Robin Hood]

Just had a look at LDS records. It appears Barney Rosenhagen was only 34 when he died in 1934.
His wife was older than him by 10 years and he had a step daughter who appears to have been about 15 when Elfrieda died. I might try and start my search with her.

Edited to add Rosehill cemetry where Barney was buried has refused permission for any photographs to be taken to add to the 'Find a grave site' So no headstone available.

 

[Ausgirl]

RH - may not be the same Barney Rosenhagen? Chief Barney was about 60 IIRC at the time of Elfrieda's death, and he died not long after (dec that year I -think-) May be his son?

 

[December]

RH - may not be the same Barney Rosenhagen? Chief Barney was about 60 IIRC at the time of Elfrieda's death, and he died not long after (dec that year I -think-) May be his son?

So, there were TWO Barney Rosenhagens with access to the cop shop keys? ETA... I'm asking.

 

[Robin Hood]

RH - may not be the same Barney Rosenhagen? Chief Barney was about 60 IIRC at the time of Elfrieda's death, and he died not long after (dec that year I -think-) May be his son?

Yes, you are spot on, apologies. Here's the two, father and son. Interestingly the son has 'inspector' down on his death cert. I was thinking Police inspector but I supposed it could be any sort of inspector.
I'm still using the sons details for contact as there's a little more to be had with the step daughter.

Bernhard Oswald Rosenhagen
Illinois, Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916-1947
birth: 22 August 1866 / 1866 Eherswalde, Germany
death: 16 December 1928 Lake Bluff, Lake, Illinois
burial: 19 December 1928 Lake Forest, Lake, Illinois
residence: 16 December 1928 Lake Bluff, Lake, Illinois
father: Reinhold Rosenhagen
mother: Albertine Wilke
spouse: Lina Rosenhagen

Barney Rosenhagen
Illinois, Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916-1947
birth: 22 February 1900 / 1900 Chicago, Ill.
death: 19 October 1934 Chicago, Cook, Illinois
burial: 22 October 1934 Chicago, Cook, Illinois
residence: 19 October 1934 Chicago, Cook, Illinois
father: Barnhart Rosenhagen
spouse: Anna

 

[Robin Hood]

So, there were TWO Barney Rosenhagens with access to the cop shop keys? ETA... I'm asking.

It looks like Barney jnr was living about 35 miles away at the time so maybe he didn't have access to any keys.

 

[December]

It looks like Barney jnr was living about 35 miles away at the time so maybe he didn't have access to any keys.

O.k., thanks. I was just thinking that would explain an awful lot. But, I guess not. haha:blushing:

 

[JohnDoe60513]

Apparently Hitch featured daily in her journals of that period. I'm probably to give in (despite how much I hate the idea of pay per view news from 1928.. grr) and purchase a sub to newspaperarchive so I can dig up the rest.

Ausgirl- the newspaper archive website allows a certain # of free page views, correct? I believe you can get around the page limit by deleting your cookies and browsing history and/or change your browser settings to private. It takes a little more time and gets annoying with websites that require passwords but it works....

 

[Tulessa]

What a fascinating case!!

 

[Stella]

I found this while researching another case; it puts a different angle to what I've read about this case before. Perhaps EK DID do this to herself during a occult induced psychotic breakdown?

http://strangeco.blogspot.com/search?q=elfrieda+knaak

 

[Ausgirl]

Interesting, that researcher has turned up pretty much the exact same info we have here. I'm glad people are still interested in this case.

After looking at this all again, I still don't think Elfrieda did this to herself. Somebody, after all, locked that door behind her. And possibly unlocked it, to let her in as well. Blood outside the room suggests she may have been injured prior to going down to the basement. I have also concluded that perhaps nothing of what Elfrieda said after her discovery is trustworthy, she would have been both heavily medicated and perhaps suffering damage from the terrible wound to her head. Plus, she was so badly burned she could not have survived necessary amputation, it was deemed; it was quite likely her organs were shutting down. There's no sign she's delusional prior to this event; on the day in question, she appeared to be functioning as per usual.

 

[Stella]

Unless she was protecting the person(s) who did this to her, I don't understand why she wouldn't give their names up to her family, doctors or LE. And why protect someone so monstrous? It would take a fiend to do something like that. Most likely, her original story was the truth and her conflicting accounts that came later were probably drug induced hallucinations/ravings. Nothing about the case makes logical sense and that is what frustrates making a definite conclusion.

 

[Ausgirl]

I hear ya, Stella, the lack of straight forward logic observable in the majority of cases we have here is profoundly lacking in this one, and it really does do one's head in after a time.

Yes, it would take somebody extremely callous, even sociopathic, to leave a woman in that condition locked in a basement overnight, let alone inflict the damage on her. And/or someone with a powerful motivation to be rid of her (and there's a couple of those in the mix). I think it's possible Elfrieda was 'tricked' into harming herself.. but there's a lot that suggests someone 'helped' her along, there. And I am not sure which version of her story to even half believe, due to her injuries.

Add into the mix that these people (and here I include Hitch) were all into this New Thought movement, which I suspect was in some of its 'branches' extremely culty, and it's not a stretch to imagine that while she lay very badly injured and possibly brain damaged, someone she trusted, someone who had a degree of influence over her mind already, convinced her she had done this to herself - and she believed them, because she very badly wanted to.

But I've argued this for a murder, or at least a manslaughter, for such a long time. I do think it's worth turning tables and considering some other options.

 

[Lesa]

Just finished reading, poor Elfrieda, I don't think she killed herself.

 

[dogperson]

I can't imagine anyone wanting to commit suicide this way, but then again I can't imagine why people sometimes set themselves on fire with gasoline to commit suicide. You would have to be extremely psychotic or delusional to choose burning, I would think.

 

[Ausgirl]

Self-immolation is usually associated with political protest, but there's a powerful link between selfless suicide and higher spirituality in the Buddhist and Hindu traditions (on which a lot of the new age movements are based). Interesting wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation

I can kind of see that a person might endure terrible pain for the sake of their faith. But idk how Elfrieda could have burned herself that badly, on both feet, in that tiny furnace opening high off the ground, without help. Or indeed, locked the door from the outside behind herself.

 

[Ausgirl]

Just going off the beaten track a little bit here -- what if they were ALL down there? And this was a sort of culty demonstration of how faith heals, mind of matter in the extreme, etc... I am sure there's a few points that could bring that idea into doubt, but it would sure explain a few things, the behaviour of Hitch & pals, inconsistencies, all sorts.

 

[VikingBookLady]

One report says Elfrieda was hit with a "sandbag" Wasn't that an old-timey term for a blackjack or billy club?

Like a cop would carry?

I wonder if her clothes were burned in the furnace. If she was electrocuted in her clothes, pieces of her skin could have stuck to the clothes when they were removed. At least, this would account for traces of skin and hair in the furnace.

VikingBookLady