IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #2

[vestigare]

But we do not know if they picked up any scent trails or not. I have not seen anyone say there were no signs of any scent trails. All we know is that they didn't corner anyone or find anyone hiding. but they could have trailed a scent that stopped--perhaps where a car was waiting?

If they had a trail to the road where they thought it lead to someone getting in a car they would have had a direction of travel, pulled all the CCTV and traffic cams for that direction of travel and gone from there. It isn't like investigations just stop when they hit the end of the scent trail. We would see evidence in town of them still doing something to investigate where these men went if they had any proof they existed.

My friend in Fed LE who knows the Illinois made out like that was the exact reason they left. There was nothing to follow. It wasn't adding up. You can't continue an investigation for something that never existed to begin with. His body was laying there and they could start a trail from that body out to anywhere but that never seems to have happened. Nothing lead away from his body.

 

[khaki]

What is the evidence of suicide at this point? What are reasons for suicide that isn't just pure speculation at this point?

Lack of known evidence for a homicide does not create evidence of a suicide.

BBM: I totally agree with this logic. As for evidence of suicide, the report from Fox the other day about Lt G being found face down, with his hand in position as if he held a gun, and the shot down the inside of his vest are what made me see suicide as a strong possibility, but I still am not 100% convinced. I also think the scenarios explaining other ways this went down pointing to homicide could also have happened.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Rudd's reasoning makes total sense to me.
I'd be frustrated too if what he says is true.

LE should have explained that they've been unable to provide the coroner with all the information needed in order to determine COD.
Instead Filenko made it sound as if Rudd was delaying the case.

I wish it did for me but I have never seen a Coroner demand that LE has a suspect before determining the MOD/COD.

Also every ME I have seen testify had the clothing of the deceased person. They are the ones who looks for gunshot residue on the clothing before sending it on to the lab for further testing. When they testify they explain what they found before carefully removing the clothing of the victim. He would have the body itself to check for gunshot residue on his hands and even torso area.

Does this Coroner not look at the angle (trajectory) of the bullet entry wound and the pathway of how or where it went once entering the body? Much can be learned by doing that. He would know already if the bullet was a close contact wound even if he had his clothing on when shot. There would still be soot/gunshot residue/stippling around the wound if it was a close range shot or if none is seen it would be reasonable to believe the gun was feet away from him when fired.

Every case I have seen its the ME/Coroner who tells LE what he/she found at the time they autopsied the body especially where gunshot residue was found, trajectory, and how close they believe the shooter was when they fired.

So I am still a little puzzled by this Coroner's demands. It seems he wants LE to do a complete investigation first including finding the gunman. They certainly aren't the first law enforcement agency who hasn't caught a suspect/s yet when the MEs had already ruled the MOD/COD.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I would like to know where the DNA of an unknown person was found. Is it on his gun? His clothing?

 

[cady]

JMO A frenzied amount of activity would have had to go on between CG's last transmission and the arrival of back-up. I just don't believe in miracles. As long as we are not given information as to what evidence was subsequently uncovered indicating that other people were there besides CG, yes, the possibility of homicide remains, hanging by a thread. With all of the selective leaks that have come from "sources familiar with the investigation" (who were tasked with keeping information under their hats) where are the allegations of unprofessionalism directed at them??? A good portion of the leaks were debunked. So, what was the purpose? I suspect it was to advance the original narrative......fiction or not. If Filenko had been as excited about the forensic evidence as he was about the videos, that information would have been trumpeted for all to hear. JUST MY OPINION

 

[cady]

I would like to know where the DNA of an unknown person was found. Is it on his gun? His clothing?

Not officially revealed. Hearsay says on the gun. JMO

 

[vestigare]

I didn't say the dogs would be too confused to find drugs there, if they were looking for drugs IMO they still would've found them. And yes I know these are specially trained dogs and I know their capabilities as well as their limitations. I am speaking from experience and familiarity with training and I respectfully disagree.

What do you train?

 

[Keefer]

BBM: I totally agree with this logic. As for evidence of suicide, the report from Fox the other day about Lt G being found face down, with his hand in position as if he held a gun, and the shot down the inside of his vest are what made me see suicide as a strong possibility, but I still am not 100% convinced. I also think the scenarios explaining other ways this went down pointing to homicide could also have happened.

I will try to not be too morbid but anyone who's hunted much knows that when say a deer or larger game animal is shot they can have vastly different reactions. I've seen them kick a leg out and make one final leap. I've seen them run a good distance and then lie down. I've seen them stumble and fall for over and get back up. I've never seen one just crumple to the ground. People might be different though.
Remember that there was no witnesses to him being shot. There remains the possibility that he crawled into this position or was placed into this position.

 

[vestigare]

What is the evidence of suicide at this point? What are reasons for suicide that isn't just pure speculation at this point?

Lack of known evidence for a homicide does not create evidence of a suicide.

That is a propositional fallacy. They aren't creating suicide evidence from lack of homicide evidence. They are saying the evidence is suicide because of the lack of homicide and unlikelihood of accidental.

 

[cady]

I will try to not be too morbid but anyone who's hunted much knows that when say a deer or larger game animal is shot they can have vastly different reactions. I've seen them kick a leg out and make one final leap. I've seen them run a good distance and then lie down. I've seen them stumble and fall for over and get back up. I've never seen one just crumple to the ground. People might be different though.
Remember that there was no witnesses to him being shot. There remains the possibility that he crawled into this position or was placed into this position.

Blood trail? JMO

 

[vestigare]

I will try to not be too morbid but anyone who's hunted much knows that when say a deer or larger game animal is shot they can have vastly different reactions. I've seen them kick a leg out and make one final leap. I've seen them run a good distance and then lie down. I've seen them stumble and fall for over and get back up. I've never seen one just crumple to the ground. People might be different though.
Remember that there was no witnesses to him being shot. There remains the possibility that he crawled into this position or was placed into this position.

True.

I have seen deer just crumple if you shoot them in the heart. I have seen people just crumple when shot in the heart.
The fact that there was witness is another huge piece of evidence towards suicide. Kind of need another person there for homicide and they would leave evidence of some sort.

 

[Keefer]

Yes, I think they would look for that as well as any blood around the body. If the bullet didn't exit there would be less blood.

 

[Keefer]

True.

I have seen deer just crumple if you shoot them in the heart. I have seen people just crumple when shot in the heart.
The fact that there was witness is another huge piece of evidence towards suicide. Kind of need another person there for homicide and they would leave evidence of some sort.

I thought this was a lung shot?

 

[vestigare]

I wish it did for me but I have never seen a Coroner demand that LE has a suspect before determining the MOD/COD.

Also every ME I have seen testify had the clothing of the deceased person. They are the ones who looks for gunshot residue on the clothing before sending it on to the lab for further testing. When they testify they explain what they found before carefully removing the clothing of the victim. He would have the body itself to check for gunshot residue on his hands and even torso area.

Does this Coroner not look at the angle (trajectory) of the bullet entry wound and the pathway of how or where it went once entering the body? Much can be learned by doing that. He would know already if the bullet was a close contact wound even if he had his clothing on when shot. There would still be soot/gunshot residue/stippling around the wound if it was a close range shot or if none is seen it would be reasonable to believe the gun was feet away from him when fired.

Every case I have seen its the ME/Coroner who tells LE what he/she found at the time they autopsied the body especially where gunshot residue was found, trajectory, and how close they believe the shooter was when they fired.

So I am still a little puzzled by this Coroner's demands. It seems he wants LE to do a complete investigation first including finding the gunman. They certainly aren't the first law enforcement agency who hasn't caught a suspect/s yet when the MEs had already ruled the MOD/COD.

I have been trying to find out what exactly the Lake county Coroner does. Different jurisdictions are different and it is complicated. In some states ME and coroner are different. Some they are the same but hold one name or the other.

It seems to me he is the ME as well and did look at trajectory of bullet wound. He also would have done stippling and tattooing. None of which actually disprove homicide as another person could have held the gun that close at that angle.

What I am trying to figure like you is where the clothing went. I think in many cases the Forensic pathologist ME/ Coroner wouldn't be doing this work since it isn't pathology. So it would go to a ballistics expert. They would have the spray pattern tests and clothing stippling. I want to know who removed the clothing and the chain of custody because at this point I trust nothing coming from that task force.

It seems Rudd wants to say Suicide because of the angle and closeness just doesn't add up to accident. But since LE wants to say homicide he needs those results from the clothing and gun to show another person was there before deciding. And naturally any DNA would contribute to evidence one way or another.

I think that statement was taken out of context too. Rudd isn't waiting for an actual name or suspect. He is waiting for proof someone, anyone existed.

 

[katydid23]

If they had a trail to the road where they thought it lead to someone getting in a car they would have had a direction of travel, pulled all the CCTV and traffic cams for that direction of travel and gone from there. It isn't like investigations just stop when they hit the end of the scent trail. We would see evidence in town of them still doing something to investigate where these men went if they had any proof they existed.

My friend in Fed LE who knows the Illinois made out like that was the exact reason they left. There was nothing to follow. It wasn't adding up. You can't continue an investigation for something that never existed to begin with. His body was laying there and they could start a trail from that body out to anywhere but that never seems to have happened. Nothing lead away from his body.

I have seen several cases where the dogs/handlers were flat out wrong. In Sierra Lamar's tragic case, LE was convinced that she never walked from her home that morning because the scent trail 'stopped at the driveway.' Everyone focused on her neighbors and/or people who may have driven to her home and picked her up for school. Sadly, it was found later that she had walked right down her street to her bus stop, where she was abducted. The dogs were wrong.

Same with a recent case of a missing boy in Utah. Dogs could not pick up his scent but he was eventually found dead, several miles away, in the open near a road, and he had died of exposure. The dogs failed, imo.

 

[vestigare]

I thought this was a lung shot?

We don't know what sort of devastating shot it was.

I have been assuming it was a downward central chest from under chin so it took out his vena cava, aorta, heart and probably some of his lungs depending how close, the bullet used and the energy inside the chest cavity. It could have been a huge hole....

 

[-MD-]

Off the current topic on this page. A while back I think I read about posters discussing if he was still smoking. Saw a picture from Aug 22nd still smoking.

Was totally caught off guard when I went to his twitter account and looked at the 7 favorited tweets of his. One of them VERY NSFW.

 

[Keefer]

We don't know what sort of devastating shot it was.

I have been assuming it was a downward central chest from under chin so it took out his vena cava, aorta, heart and probably some of his lungs depending how close, the bullet used and the energy inside the chest cavity. It could have been a huge hole....

But you are assuming, I am glad you admitted that. Going back to gunshot wounds which it sounds like you know a lot about, have you ever heard or maybe you have seen a person shot through the heart who continues to move around ?

 

[vestigare]

I have seen several cases where the dogs/handlers were flat out wrong. In Sierra Lamar's tragic case, LE was convinced that she never walked from her home that morning because the scent trail 'stopped at the driveway.' Everyone focused on her neighbors and/or people who may have driven to her home and picked her up for school. Sadly, it was found later that she had walked right down her street to her bus stop, where she was abducted. The dogs were wrong.

Same with a recent case of a missing boy in Utah. Dogs could not pick up his scent but he was eventually found dead, several miles away, in the open near a road, and he had died of exposure. The dogs failed, imo.

Not familiar with that case enough to comment.

Remember in this case we had 49 K9 units from various govt agencies. They weren't just tracking dogs as it usually used in missing persons cases and by local LE. They had air scenting dogs there as well as ballistics dogs etc....

Dogs can find people 30 feet down in avalanches, among rubble, in a lake, they can sniff human cells in a can at twenty paces. They will find the scent of three people on a dry day. Even if they only were right 1/3 of the time you would think one of these 49 dogs would have picked up one of these three people's scent or something on their person????

 

[cady]

We don't know what sort of devastating shot it was.

I have been assuming it was a downward central chest from under chin so it took out his vena cava, aorta, heart and probably some of his lungs depending how close, the bullet used and the energy inside the chest cavity. It could have been a huge hole....

Would the devastation vary depending on distance or does 40cal cause devastation no matter from where it was fired? Or was "devastating" used because it blew up a major organ? JMO