golfmom
Former Member
I saved a copy of the 2nd amended complaint. Would it be o.k. for me to post it here?
GUILTY IL - Riley Fox, 3, Wilmington, 6 June 2004
- Thread starter tybee204
- Start date
- Status
Golfmom, here is my point this is from the Chicago Mag article you posted, I do find the article interesting, hadn't seen it before:
"Other family members were less comfortable. They urged Kevin to hire an attorney. But after briefly talking to one lawyer, Kevin dismissed the idea. "I felt like I had nothing to hide," he says, and he worried that hiring an attorney might make him look guilty."
I hope you understand why I am starting to question the "other side" of events. Be sure though, I haven't "gone completely to the dark side"
It just seems shannanagans are being played on both sides.
"Other family members were less comfortable. They urged Kevin to hire an attorney. But after briefly talking to one lawyer, Kevin dismissed the idea. "I felt like I had nothing to hide," he says, and he worried that hiring an attorney might make him look guilty."
I hope you understand why I am starting to question the "other side" of events. Be sure though, I haven't "gone completely to the dark side"
It just seems shannanagans are being played on both sides.
Here is another quote from the same article that basically states the DNA was tested but then sent to the FBI, I guess I am asking how did they "Hide the DNA" when KZ admits there was a 9 month backlog and it would seem she knew where it was the whole time?: "But after the initial testing by the state crime lab, with its inconclusive finding on saliva, the DNA had been sent to the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, which had a nine-month backlog."
golfmom
Former Member
LOL, I caught it too. I guess the judge is going to leave it up to a jury to decide. But, IMHO, Kevin Fox and family have such a strong case, that if something is even in the slightest bit questionable ... they should just dump it from the civil case. It's not worth the risk.
Did you notice that .... "Kaupas acknowledged that the detectives had had no substantial new evidence when they called in Kevin. Instead, going on a "gut feeling," he said, they "rolled bones" in the hope they could elicit a confession" --- To the sheriff's office now claiming that had probable cause to arrest Kevin Fox prior to the interrogation in their motion to dismiss. I'm curious as to what the sheriff's office considered probable cause ... that he was alive and breathing? they had NO physical evidence tying Kevin to the crime and they were busy NOT testing the evidence they did have.
It'll be an interesting case to follow.
golfmom
Former Member
Danny, I'd have to dig out the info in the Riley archive, but at one time I found the FBI policy on DNA testing for child murders. They consider those high priority cases and will immediately fast-track testing. There should not have been that kind of wait.
golfmom
Former Member
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=736446&postcount=89
This isn't exactly what I was referring to, but pretty darn close ... I'll keep searching to see if I can find what I was referring to
I started poking about for policy when we realized that there were a lot of child murders around that time that we were all following, and the dna evidence on those cases were sent to the same lab and were immediately turn around.
This isn't exactly what I was referring to, but pretty darn close ... I'll keep searching to see if I can find what I was referring to
I started poking about for policy when we realized that there were a lot of child murders around that time that we were all following, and the dna evidence on those cases were sent to the same lab and were immediately turn around.
golfmom
Former Member
I still can't find what I was looking for, but I came across this:
The FBI takes care of higher-priority cases sooner than samples from less urgent cases, FBI's Fram stressed. "If we absolutely had to have something done in two days, we could do that. But you cannot do that for every case."
The target turnaround time for urgent biology requests to the RCMP -- those involving terrorism, for instance -- is 15 days. FLS met this goal for 132 of 134 requests, but these requests represent just 1% of the RCMP's total caseload.
http://www.the-scientist.com/news/home/53203/
The FBI takes care of higher-priority cases sooner than samples from less urgent cases, FBI's Fram stressed. "If we absolutely had to have something done in two days, we could do that. But you cannot do that for every case."
The target turnaround time for urgent biology requests to the RCMP -- those involving terrorism, for instance -- is 15 days. FLS met this goal for 132 of 134 requests, but these requests represent just 1% of the RCMP's total caseload.
http://www.the-scientist.com/news/home/53203/
golfmom
Former Member
THE DNA GAME
June 6, 2004: Kevin Fox of Wilmington reports his 3-year-old daughter Riley missing about 8 a.m. Hikers find her body about 3:30 p.m. in Will County's Forked Creek in Forsythe Woods Forest Preserve after a massive search.
June 7, 2004: Autopsy is performed, evidence samples collected from remains.
June 7, 2004, autopsy was performed on Riley Fox by Scott Denton, M.D., and morgue technician Bill Belcher. Sexual assault kit, containing the swabs, was taken immediately to the Illinois State Police Crime Lab.
June 7, 2004, a laboratory report, 1. no semen identified; blood indicated Report that the vaginal swabs, fingernail clippings and blood standard “will be submitted for DNA analysis.”
June 14-22, 2004: DNA samples sent to FBI lab for tests.
June 14 and June 22, 2004, FBI received fingernail scrapings and vaginal swabs from the sexual assault kit, as well as the comparison buccal swabs from the Fox and Rossi families.
November 3, 2004, “All additional serology and DNA analysis were discontinued on the submitted items per communication with Sergeant Edward Hayes. FBI letter dated January 3, 2005,. and produced by Defendant Detectives to Kevin Fox’s attorney and State’s Attorney Glasgow on May 19, 2005 – It’s sad to note that throughout this whole time Kevin Fox and his family were waiting on these results while Detective Hayes was giggling over the fast he managed to pull off.
Nov. 16, 2004: New clues surface. Investigators found duct tape in the creek where Fox's body was found, police said. Other samples were found on the bridge where a memorial was created for Fox. Sent to FBI.
January 3, 2005 FBI letter dated January 3, 2005, confirming that all serology and DNA analysis were discontinued based Hayes communication with the FBI on November 3, 2004. Not provided to defense until May 19, 2005
Jan. 28, 2005: Prosecutors admit in court that there is no physical evidence linking KF to the murders. Glasgow announces in court that the FBI lab results should be back within the week.
Feb. 9, 2005: All discovery provided. Motion to dismiss. Note, although all discovery was supposed to have been turned over to the defense … there was still critical information missing – by June 10 KZ subpoenaed to force the prosecution to turn over information related to physical evidence.
February 9, 2005, Glasgow provided the June 8, 2004, laboratory report of the Illinois State Crime Laboratory to Kevin Fox’s attorneys. Alerting defendant and attorneys that the vaginal swabs and fingernails of the victim might have DNA on them.
Feb. 19, 2005: Emergency request to preserve evidence. Will County Judge Dan Rozak agreed to the emergency request made by Paul DeLuca, one of Fox's lawyers.
February 22, 2005, Kevin Fox’s attorneys filed a motion for DNA testing at Bode Laboratory, in Virginia
Feb. 23, 2005: Defense files motion for DNA testing done to determine if material found on the girl's fingernails is blood.
Feb. 25, 2005: Glasgow's office and Fox's lawyers agree to process for comparing DNA evidence from Riley's body and samples supplied by Kevin Fox.
February 25, 2005, court order allowing Bode Laboratory to do all DNA testing at Kevin Fox’s expense. Note: Instead Det. Hayes forwards materials to State Crime Lab and spends another couple of months giggling.
April 5, 2005: As per Det. Hayes directive, DNA evidence forwarded to the Illinois State Crime Lab rather than Bode Laboratory.
April 12, 2005: Contempt of court filed against Sheriff’s investigators for not forwarding DNA material on to independent lab.
May 13, 2005: Prosecutor’s request hair sample from Kevin Fox to compare to a hair found in body bag.
May 19, 2005, Glasgow and Kathleen Zellner discover that the FBI had halted all tests based on a conversation with Hayes November 3, 2004. – Note: Again critical information missing from full discovery … this letter if turned over when it was supposed to be would have alerted KZ that the FBI lab had shelved all testing as per Det. Hayes
May 25, 2005: The judge presiding over the criminal case approved a motion for Fox to give blood, saliva and hair samples to his attorney so that it can be compared with other evidence.
June 10, 2005: Missing documents requested by the defense team. The page was subpoenaed by Fox's attorney, Kathleen Zellner, after she determined it was missing from a report provided to her earlier. Park Forest Officer’s report about blood hound evidence.
June 16, 2005, Bode Laboratory faxed a final excluding Kevin Fox and all male members in the family
June 17, 2005: A day after state's attorney and defense lawyers receive lab results excluding Kevin Fox as source of DNA obtained from his daughter's body, Fox is released from jail.
golfmom
Former Member
The only spinning going on around here is yours.
I come here with a clear, concise timeline and you respond with a bizarre of-the-wall outrageous theory. I believe your cigarette theory :sick: and a persistent attack of the Fox family is a smoke and mirrors attempt to misdirect from the issue of how this case was mishandled. Who are you trying to protect by your attacks? IF Kevin was guilty, you should be attacking those who mishandled this case. The sad reality is that Will County was so intent on making a case rather than solving a case, Riley may never have justice.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that the lawsuit probably won't be successful, even if there was overwhelming evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct justice. That's just the way things work around here.
I come here with a clear, concise timeline and you respond with a bizarre of-the-wall outrageous theory. I believe your cigarette theory :sick: and a persistent attack of the Fox family is a smoke and mirrors attempt to misdirect from the issue of how this case was mishandled. Who are you trying to protect by your attacks? IF Kevin was guilty, you should be attacking those who mishandled this case. The sad reality is that Will County was so intent on making a case rather than solving a case, Riley may never have justice.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that the lawsuit probably won't be successful, even if there was overwhelming evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct justice. That's just the way things work around here.
O.K.-- not to "encourage" anyone or "discourage" anyone, but it is a good timeline(don't know where all that good info came from). It identifies some key elements. Like I said in a previous post, I was going to talk to a cop friend of mine who might be able to offer a little insight as to why things happened the way they did. After a little "Interrogation" by him he said he would review some of the stuff here and on the web and try and give us somewhat of a "cop" view. He did however answer a couple of questions off hand that I thought I would share for the groups "critique".
First he said, was that Kevin has not been exonerated. He was simply let go by a D/A who felt he could meet his "burden of proof"= beyond a reasonable doubt. He went on to state that DNA can be powerful evidence but the source has to be determined and investigated. He gave an example from the Duke case. There was DNA but it belonged to the girls boyfriend. IF she was found dead for some reason, after the party, who killed her? A jealous boyfriend or one of the players? So until the "donor" can be determined the DNA is of little actual consequence (his words guy, please, please don't kill the messenger). He went on to clarify his position with the scenario of what if/when the donor is identified and admits to assaulting the child, but adamantly denies killing her? Do you still prosecute that person for murder? HHmmmm I don't know---.
He also seemed to be a little shocked that a Sheriff's Dept. investigated this case and not a local city or the state. He said on the east coast area the Sheriff is relegated to "court duties" I told him I didn't know, maybe they were "County Investigators" who have to report to the Sheriff. This kind of relates back to my very first post that only recently Crash676 addressed, that was if any one knew the investigators and there character, which to me is very important. Are they good caliber people? Crash, if you could expound on what you might know it would be appreciated.
The last thing my friend told me is to "remember an attorneys prime target is the integrity of the investigation" meaning that an attorney will do everything possible to make the investigator look incompetent. including lying, as they are not "sworn" to tell the truth to anyone. He said a good indication is if they settle "out of court". He said that if a defense attorney has absolute proof, they will go to trial. If it is shaky, they will settle and claim victory. He said most governmental agencies will settle if the price of defending the case goes too high. They look at it as "risk management".
Anyway he said he would look at some of the stuff posted here and else where and give me his thoughts. We'll see where that goes. I am still "riding the fence" as it were. I'm starting to be more in the camp with Jeana DP. That the officers may have been wrong, but no necessarily "criminal" (sorry genecam
).
First he said, was that Kevin has not been exonerated. He was simply let go by a D/A who felt he could meet his "burden of proof"= beyond a reasonable doubt. He went on to state that DNA can be powerful evidence but the source has to be determined and investigated. He gave an example from the Duke case. There was DNA but it belonged to the girls boyfriend. IF she was found dead for some reason, after the party, who killed her? A jealous boyfriend or one of the players? So until the "donor" can be determined the DNA is of little actual consequence (his words guy, please, please don't kill the messenger). He went on to clarify his position with the scenario of what if/when the donor is identified and admits to assaulting the child, but adamantly denies killing her? Do you still prosecute that person for murder? HHmmmm I don't know---.
He also seemed to be a little shocked that a Sheriff's Dept. investigated this case and not a local city or the state. He said on the east coast area the Sheriff is relegated to "court duties" I told him I didn't know, maybe they were "County Investigators" who have to report to the Sheriff. This kind of relates back to my very first post that only recently Crash676 addressed, that was if any one knew the investigators and there character, which to me is very important. Are they good caliber people? Crash, if you could expound on what you might know it would be appreciated.
The last thing my friend told me is to "remember an attorneys prime target is the integrity of the investigation" meaning that an attorney will do everything possible to make the investigator look incompetent. including lying, as they are not "sworn" to tell the truth to anyone. He said a good indication is if they settle "out of court". He said that if a defense attorney has absolute proof, they will go to trial. If it is shaky, they will settle and claim victory. He said most governmental agencies will settle if the price of defending the case goes too high. They look at it as "risk management".
Anyway he said he would look at some of the stuff posted here and else where and give me his thoughts. We'll see where that goes. I am still "riding the fence" as it were. I'm starting to be more in the camp with Jeana DP. That the officers may have been wrong, but no necessarily "criminal" (sorry genecam
).golfmom
Former Member
Here's a link to the original timeline I created on the overall case: http://websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/f-36/t-26612.html
Sources were local and national media reports, press conferences & releases, the 2nd & 3rd amended complaints. On the THE DNA GAME, I went back through a bunch of old articles looking specifically for information and dates related to the physical evidence.
Here's a tidbit I left off: Kevin was charged with murder Oct. 26 ... Hayes called the FBI to discontinue testing Nov. 3. Why cancel the tests at all? Even with the confession, wouldn't their case be stronger with physical evidence? Have you ever heard of a case where the district attorney or investigators say "naw, we don't need no stinkin' evidence."? What was so special about Nov. 3, that Hayes called the FBI to cancel testing? It was the day after Tomczak lost the election. Glasgow began his review of the case Nov. 4. How that call managed to stay a secret for nearly 7 months is mind-boggling.
As to why the sheriff's dept. headed up the investigation, I'm running on memory here, but I believe they took the case because Riley was found on county forest preserve land.
Just speculating, but that might have been why Tomczak insisted that Riley was alive prior to being placed in the water -- contrary to the coroner's findings. Placing her actual death on county land may have been important for the sheriff's department to retain the case.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=2800304
Fox's attorney also introduced an affidavit from the Will County coroner who performed the autopsy on Riley's body, disputing assertions made by the former state's attorney Jeff Tomczak that she was alive and struggling before being drowned. The coroner says, "I do not hold the opinion attributed to me by state's attorney Tomczak."
As to the character of the investigators, really I have no knowledge other than the power of google. Ocassionally, I run across stories that involve them. Most recently Sgt. Edward Hayes headed up the disasterous "Operation Sleepover". Frankly, I just don't know if he was out to make a name for himself and fell on his face or was flat-out just duped by an informant. Of course, Phil Mock commited career suicide: http://www.willcountysao.com/press_room/2006_01/20060126.htm The alleged victim was younger than 13, and she became pregnant. DNA evidence allegedly has linked the teen to the crime, state prosecutors have said.
IMHO Tomczak's character speaks for itself. The apple didn't fall far from the "Hired Truck Scandal".
Sources were local and national media reports, press conferences & releases, the 2nd & 3rd amended complaints. On the THE DNA GAME, I went back through a bunch of old articles looking specifically for information and dates related to the physical evidence.
Here's a tidbit I left off: Kevin was charged with murder Oct. 26 ... Hayes called the FBI to discontinue testing Nov. 3. Why cancel the tests at all? Even with the confession, wouldn't their case be stronger with physical evidence? Have you ever heard of a case where the district attorney or investigators say "naw, we don't need no stinkin' evidence."? What was so special about Nov. 3, that Hayes called the FBI to cancel testing? It was the day after Tomczak lost the election. Glasgow began his review of the case Nov. 4. How that call managed to stay a secret for nearly 7 months is mind-boggling.
As to why the sheriff's dept. headed up the investigation, I'm running on memory here, but I believe they took the case because Riley was found on county forest preserve land.
Just speculating, but that might have been why Tomczak insisted that Riley was alive prior to being placed in the water -- contrary to the coroner's findings. Placing her actual death on county land may have been important for the sheriff's department to retain the case.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=2800304
Fox's attorney also introduced an affidavit from the Will County coroner who performed the autopsy on Riley's body, disputing assertions made by the former state's attorney Jeff Tomczak that she was alive and struggling before being drowned. The coroner says, "I do not hold the opinion attributed to me by state's attorney Tomczak."
As to the character of the investigators, really I have no knowledge other than the power of google. Ocassionally, I run across stories that involve them. Most recently Sgt. Edward Hayes headed up the disasterous "Operation Sleepover". Frankly, I just don't know if he was out to make a name for himself and fell on his face or was flat-out just duped by an informant. Of course, Phil Mock commited career suicide: http://www.willcountysao.com/press_room/2006_01/20060126.htm The alleged victim was younger than 13, and she became pregnant. DNA evidence allegedly has linked the teen to the crime, state prosecutors have said.
IMHO Tomczak's character speaks for itself. The apple didn't fall far from the "Hired Truck Scandal".
golfmom
Former Member
This is a list of defendants from the 2nd amended complaint. Defendants, OFFICE OF THE SHERIFF OF WILL COUNTY, DETECTIVE EDWARD HAYES, DETECTIVE MICHAEL GUILFOYLE, DETECTIVE SCOTT SWEARENGEN, DETECTIVE JOHN RUETTIGER, DETECTIVE BRAD WACHTL, DETECTIVE DAVID DOBROWSKI and RICHARD WILLIAMS,
Additionally the Chicago Trib shows the defendants as: former State's Atty. Jeff Tomczak, six sheriff's detectives, three of their supervisors, a jail guard and a polygraph examiner. The suit alleges Tomczak orchestrated the coercion of Fox's statement six days before an election as his poll standing plummeted.
Additionally the Chicago Trib shows the defendants as: former State's Atty. Jeff Tomczak, six sheriff's detectives, three of their supervisors, a jail guard and a polygraph examiner. The suit alleges Tomczak orchestrated the coercion of Fox's statement six days before an election as his poll standing plummeted.
He also seemed to be a little shocked that a Sheriff's Dept. investigated this case and not a local city or the state. He said on the east coast area the Sheriff is relegated to "court duties" I told him I didn't know, maybe they were "County Investigators" who have to report to the Sheriff. This kind of relates back to my very first post that only recently Crash676 addressed, that was if any one knew the investigators and there character, which to me is very important. Are they good caliber people? Crash, if you could expound on what you might know it would be appreciated.
The last thing my friend told me is to "remember an attorneys prime target is the integrity of the investigation" meaning that an attorney will do everything possible to make the investigator look incompetent. including lying, as they are not "sworn" to tell the truth to anyone. He said a good indication is if they settle "out of court". He said that if a defense attorney has absolute proof, they will go to trial. If it is shaky, they will settle and claim victory. He said most governmental agencies will settle if the price of defending the case goes too high. They look at it as "risk management".
Anyway he said he would look at some of the stuff posted here and else where and give me his thoughts. We'll see where that goes. I am still "riding the fence" as it were. I'm starting to be more in the camp with Jeana DP. That the officers may have been wrong, but no necessarily "criminal" (sorry genecam
).[/quote]Danny.. I know several of the investigators in this case personally. They all seem to be good officers. But I am not willing to stake a case on seem to be good people. You just never know what people are capable of. I personally think there were a few of the investigators who pushed their luck during the interrogation of Kevin and used improper leading tactics that will eventually lead to the county paying tax dollars to the tax family. I beleive this because of what I know of Ms. Zellner she will push for a jury trial and we all know how that will most likely turn out. I would just like to see some of the original investigators just open their hearts and work on Riley's case. It just seems that her actual case has hit the backburner and the focus has become on this civil suit. Finding Riley's killer should be eveyone's priority and I am saddened that we hear about the wrongful confession of Kevins over and over again associated with $$$ and a lawsuit. Justice for Riley. Don't care if the Foxes ever get a dime..Find Riley's killer whomever that may be..
golfmom
Former Member
I don't have much time today guys, but Ijust wanted to say I agree. Too much time/energy wasted on this civil suit. Just a quick thought on the couple of posts here.
Crash, when I first posted here a while back, I think the detectives were involved in another homicide somwhere in the same vicinity, the guy was claiming the same thing..coerced confession. I was comenting back then as to their "character" but to clairify, I also meant their "record". Have they done murder investigations before, waht was teir reputation in town at court etc...
Also, it would seem there were more "amended" complaints, it seems some supervisors were added. When ever there is/was something like this, there was some sort of press coverage, I can't seem to find anything past this "second amended complaint". Maybe it was because there was nothing new other than adding names.
One last thought before I go, Crash, not to put words in your mouth but you said "I would just like to see some of the original investigators just open their hearts and work on Riley's case." In the Chicago article it said they were all "reassigned". Are they still investigators, on like "desk duty" or something, or have they been sent to different duties? Your post seems to indicate maybe you think these guys should be back on the case, looking for the killer, do you have that much trust in them or do you think they are the best shot because they know the most about the case?
Crash, when I first posted here a while back, I think the detectives were involved in another homicide somwhere in the same vicinity, the guy was claiming the same thing..coerced confession. I was comenting back then as to their "character" but to clairify, I also meant their "record". Have they done murder investigations before, waht was teir reputation in town at court etc...
Also, it would seem there were more "amended" complaints, it seems some supervisors were added. When ever there is/was something like this, there was some sort of press coverage, I can't seem to find anything past this "second amended complaint". Maybe it was because there was nothing new other than adding names.
One last thought before I go, Crash, not to put words in your mouth but you said "I would just like to see some of the original investigators just open their hearts and work on Riley's case." In the Chicago article it said they were all "reassigned". Are they still investigators, on like "desk duty" or something, or have they been sent to different duties? Your post seems to indicate maybe you think these guys should be back on the case, looking for the killer, do you have that much trust in them or do you think they are the best shot because they know the most about the case?
golfmom
Former Member
The complaints were amended as the situation was still evolving and they were continually discovering additional issues. I believe that the 3rd complaint was briefly at justiceforriley. Obviously, there have been further complaints considering the recent news reports referencing items that were being disputed during the motion to dismiss that were not publicly known ... specifically the attorney who submitted the affidavit that the sheriff's dept. had notice to not interview Fox without his presence.
I think that the general consenus is because of this lawsuit Law enformcement in general are scared to work this case or comment on whether it is active and who is assigned to it etc.
golfmom
Former Member
"I do not believe that Will County is capable of solving this case,"
Melissa Fox said, asking that Atty. Gen. Lisa Madigan and Illinois
State Police take over the probe now being led by State's Atty. James
Glasgow.
"They have a huge conflict of interest, because they are being sued
for violating my family's civil rights and, at the same time, they are
supposed to be trying to catch Riley's killer," she said. "Catching
Riley's killer will only prove how huge their mistake was in arresting
and prosecuting Kevin."
Melissa Fox said, asking that Atty. Gen. Lisa Madigan and Illinois
State Police take over the probe now being led by State's Atty. James
Glasgow.
"They have a huge conflict of interest, because they are being sued
for violating my family's civil rights and, at the same time, they are
supposed to be trying to catch Riley's killer," she said. "Catching
Riley's killer will only prove how huge their mistake was in arresting
and prosecuting Kevin."
I am always reading here!! Just don't have anything to add... :blowkiss:
- Status