Deceased/Not Found IL - Yingying Zhang, 26, Urbana, 9 June 2017 #3 *Arrest*

[Mercedes]

I am curious if LE has any information suggesting that Yingying was taken across states lines by the perp at some point?

 

[liltexans]

I am curious if LE has any information suggesting that Yingying was taken across states lines by the perp at some point?

They must have something that makes them think they can support the federal kidnapping charge. Maybe they have his phone pinging in Indiana or something.

 

[Yellow]

OK, well, I don't think this is being handled like other kidnapping cases we've seen. The Chinese Consulate is heavily involved and is putting a lot of pressure on the FBI. Also, the state of IL is broke, as in they haven't had a state budget in over 3 years. So I don't necessarily think they will be clamoring to take the case back from the US Attorney's office and all of the expenses that might incur. But I guess we will see.

Yes I agree. They will try to keep it in federal court as long as possible. It puts his lawyer in a tricky position because there is the 24 hour rebuttable presumption and you can't very well rebut that without almost admitting culpability. With the Chinese consulate involvement, this has become an international issue, so they could not very well tell the Chinese that they did not have the FBI on the case. I looked to see if her being a foreign national mattered for jxn and it does not so in theory, there is no reason to treat this case as different from many other kidnapping/murder but because of publicity/foreign relations reasons (especially given what is going on with North Korea- this is not time to annoy the Chinese), they will want to keep the feds on this at least for the near term. There may also be some federal crimes like computer stuff that he may be alleged to commit that could keep it in federal court longer.

I think Tim McVeigh was one of the only people convicted of death under federal murder law and the number on federal death row is very small just because it is so hard to get jxn under federal murder law. They typically like to try cases all together so there will not want to do a separate trial (if jxn exists) on federal kidnapping charges if the murder took place entirely within the state of IL, with any murder, sexual assault charges having to be tried in state court. Double jeopardy does not apply to state and federal offenses, so oftentimes if there is jxn in federal court, they will want to try everything in state court first, and then leave themselves the option of federal court should the person be acquitted in state court.

if he does not have good counsel, he could possibly be swayed by the possibility of death penalty under federal law even though as a practical matter that is a very remote possibility. That's what maybe they are going after because they want him to disclose the body. The missing ingredient in this case is we don't know how much the Chinese are pressing on this to the State dept. I don't know how many other Chinese nationals are victims of serious crime in the US.

 

[liltexans]

Yes I agree. They will try to keep it in federal court as long as possible. It puts his lawyer in a tricky position because there is the 24 hour rebuttable presumption and you can't very well rebut that without almost admitting culpability. With the Chinese consulate involvement, this has become an international issue, so they could not very well tell the Chinese that they did not have the FBI on the case. I looked to see if her being a foreign national mattered for jxn and it does not so in theory, there is no reason to treat this case as different from many other kidnapping/murder but because of publicity/foreign relations reasons (especially given what is going on with North Korea- this is not time to annoy the Chinese), they will want to keep the feds on this at least for the near term. There may also be some federal crimes like computer stuff that he may be alleged to commit that could keep it in federal court longer.

I think Tim McVeigh was one of the only people convicted of death under federal murder law and the number on federal murder row is very small just because it is so hard to get jxn under federal murder law. They typically like to try cases all together so there will not want to do a separate trial (if jxn exists) on federal kidnapping charges if the murder took place entirely within the state of IL, with any murder, sexual assault charges having to be tried in state court. Double jeopardy does not apply to state and federal offenses, so oftentimes if there is jxn in federal court, they will want to try everything in state court first, and then leave themselves the option of federal court should the person be acquitted in state court.

I am wondering about the computer/Internet communications. How could that come into play for federal kidnapping charges? Or could it?

 

[Yellow]

They must have something that makes them think they can support the federal kidnapping charge. Maybe they have his phone pinging in Indiana or something.

It's a rebuttable presumption- they presume if you have been gone at least 24 hours you crossed state lines. But yeah, there could be other evidence he crossed state line. I am not sure how far Urbana is from Missouri border.

Also as I wrote above, the optics of this make them want to be in federal court as least for now.

 

[Mercedes]

Did you read the article I just posted upthread? It says the case could go to the US Attorney General if it is determined a death occurred during the kidnapping.

liltexans,

With all due respect, I think the U.S. Attorney meant that the decision whether to pursue the death penalty or life in prison for this defendant would be made by A.G. Jeff Sessions. I agree that this statement implies that
this case will remain in federal court.

As another member once said, we don't know what we don't know!

 

[Yellow]

I am wondering about the computer/Internet communications. How could that come into play for federal kidnapping charges? Or could it?

Yeah, that is interesting. For a child, not an adult unfortunately I believe, they can keep federal jxn in a case if there is some child *advertiser censored* charges, although child *advertiser censored* charges on their own are a federal crime so if one does that it would be a standalone crime.

I am not sure other than child *advertiser censored* what other computer things one can do. Planning a murder for hire would count but that is unlikely the case here. I am not sure what else he could have done on the computer to bring himself under federal jxn and even if so they would be stand alone offenses. Like if there is a weapons charge or whatever. The DC snipers I think had weapons charges but their murder cases were all carried out in MD and VA not the feds.

 

[mrsobrien]

They must have something that makes them think they can support the federal kidnapping charge. Maybe they have his phone pinging in Indiana or something.

I want ping info for him and Yingying SO BAD. ANYTHING more than what we currently have! Where was BC on June 9? We know nothing before or after the abduction, it's driving me crazy!

 

[Mercedes]

It's a rebuttable presumption- they presume if you have been gone at least 24 hours you crossed state lines. But yeah, there could be other evidence he crossed state line. I am not sure how far Urbana is from Missouri border.

Also as I wrote above, the optics of this make them want to be in federal court as least for now.

Yellow,

I considered the Lindbergh Law also, and agree the 24 hour rule is rebuttable. With respect to crossing state lines, I too don't know how far Urbana is from any other state's border.

I haven't found anything yet to suggest this case that the Feds have jurisdiction because Yingying was a visiting scholar on a student visa. Have you?

Best.

Mercedes

 

[Jennifer17]

Would her being a foreign national covered by a federal issued visa have any bearing on state/federal charges?

ETA. Posted at the same time as Mercedes.

 

[Yellow]

liltexans,

With all due respect, I think the U.S. Attorney meant that the decision whether to pursue the death penalty or life in prison for this defendant would be made by A.G. Jeff Sessions. I agree that this statement implies that
this case will remain in federal court.

As another member once said, we don't know what we don't know!

I interpreted the article as the US attorney saying in general what happens in cases like this where a fed kidnapping case needs to be proven. I agree that at least for now this case will stay in federal court if only for them to keep on talking about the death penalty in Chinese media as well as to pressure suspect to giving info. The second this case goes to state court death penalty becomes moot I believe under Illinois law. There is no reason for LE to give up that leverage now, especially if the Chinese are pressing this issue. Better to have it out there that this is a political decision that would ultimately be decided by Trump or a Trump appointee. We don't know but that may be a calculated decision by the state dept/DOJ and may not entirely be unrelated to our broader relationship with China.

 

[Millhouse]

Yellow,

I considered the Lindbergh Law also, and agree the 24 hour rule is rebuttable. With respect to crossing state lines, I too don't know how far Urbana is from any other state's border.

I haven't found anything yet to suggest this case that the Feds have jurisdiction because Yingying was a visiting scholar on a student visa. Have you?

Best.

Mercedes

From Champaign-Urbana, it's about 2 1/2 - 2 hours 45 minutes to St Louis and only about 40 minutes to the Indiana border. It takes about 3 hours to the Wisconsin border (using Kenosha, WI), and about 3 1/2 hours to Paducah, KY.

 

[Yellow]

Yellow,

I considered the Lindbergh Law also, and agree the 24 hour rule is rebuttable. With respect to crossing state lines, I too don't know how far Urbana is from any other state's border.

I haven't found anything yet to suggest this case that the Feds have jurisdiction because Yingying was a visiting scholar on a student visa. Have you?

Best.

Mercedes

No, I don't think she is treated special because of it. The federal kidnapping statute gives jxn for foreign officials, internationally protected person or "official guests." I thought maybe she would come under "official guest" or "internationally protected persons" but under the statute that applies more to official delegations from a foreign state. Indeed, since she does not fit in those categories, it implies then there would not otherwise be jxn unless it crosse state laws.

And as a practical matter many foreigners are murdered or subject to crime in the US and I don't think they are treated differently or I don't think their cases are heard in federal court. The optics on this case may be higher than normal so if this case is being treated differently I think it has more to do with optics than law.

Now if her parents sue the university or sue him personally in a civil case, she is treated differently as a foreigner as they could get access to federal courts, even if the allegations are only state-law based. But for criminal law I don't think it makes a difference.

 

[Mercedes]

From Champaign-Urbana, it's about 2 1/2 - 2 hours 45 minutes to St Louis and only about 40 minutes to the Indiana border. It takes about 3 hours to the Wisconsin border (using Kenosha, WI), and about 3 1/2 hours to Paducah, KY.

Thank you very much. This is good for us out-of-staters to know.

 

[Yellow]

From Champaign-Urbana, it's about 2 1/2 - 2 hours 45 minutes to St Louis and only about 40 minutes to the Indiana border. It takes about 3 hours to the Wisconsin border (using Kenosha, WI), and about 3 1/2 hours to Paducah, KY.

So not far from Indiana. He could very well have went there. I reread the criminal complaint and it's very vague about jurisdiction. Often one is very clear about jurisdiction and why you have it. In the complaint they just refer to the federal kidnapping law and having authority because of it. They don't say anything about having jxn because of it occurring across state lines.

I taught a constitutional law class once and I told the students that only a stupid criminal would commit a crime involving a national park or across state lines because then the feds get two bites out of the apple - that is double jeopardy doesn't apply and both federal and state authorities can go after you. But alot of people don't know that I guess!

 

[kelsie]

I don't know if this article was posted earlier upthread, forgive me if so.

'Evil exists in every community'

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2017-07-02/evil-exists-every-community.html

The UI announced via massmail Friday night that a campuswide memorial would be held Saturday in Ms. Zhang's honor came across as "more than a little tasteless," (UI alumna) Emma Dorantes said, "especially since it seems the investigation is ongoing, and there has yet been no final determination about Ms. Zhang's whereabouts."

The memorial was called off Saturday morning, per the family's wishes.
"I'm not ready to give up hope," Dorantes said. "And I think we owe Ms. Zhang's family respect as they continue to seek answers and closure, good or bad, in their ordeal."

 

[liltexans]

liltexans,

With all due respect, I think the U.S. Attorney meant that the decision whether to pursue the death penalty or life in prison for this defendant would be made by A.G. Jeff Sessions. I agree that this statement implies that
this case will remain in federal court.

As another member once said, we don't know what we don't know!

Right, yes, I get it. I think the FBI is going to try to keep this as a federal case, though. I don't know what evidence they have, but Yingying's family has said they want the death penalty pursued and there's zero chance of that if the case is tried by the state of IL.

 

[Tinypeeps]

I assume the family and LE aren't organizing big public searches is because LE already has evidence they need to pin down - finding chemicals or traces of anything in plumbing, or that he threw her in a dumpster, or even a highly specific kind of dirt on his tires. The fact that they focused on surveillance on him for so long and said they presumed her dead says a lot, I think.

If she had a body that was either recoverable/intact or dumped in a public place or they didn't have a clue, there would be public search parties of forests and fields or they'd be skimming bodies of water.

Exactly.

 

[Evrgreentree]

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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]I don't think he's a serial killer or rapist. I agree that he's probably a first-timer who thought he could get away with it. I'm more curious about similar cases to see what kind of path and premeditation any other "normal" educated guy took toward a stranger killing. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]I don't think he has anything to do with other area disappearances considering they're all non-white (Hispanic, black, Native American?) teens, most more likely to be endangered runaways lured willingly with a BF or pimp or killed by an acquaintance or someone living closer. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]He grabbed an Asian girl - highly fetishized as submissive - and was focused on sexual fantasy. (Makes me think of the case in CA where a suspect looked up Asian bondage videos the night before his Asian sister-in-law was found dead, bound). Seems he'd be cocky looking for more of a "dream girl" situation like that, and then there's the speculation he was a racist, conservative poster.[/FONT][/FONT]

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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Italic]Cases of the Asian Fetish Syndrome [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Michael Lohman, a third-year doctoral student at Princeton University, ranked in the top of his class in the applied and computational mathematics department. Princeton University math whiz Michael Lohman had a creepy sexual secret. For three years, the married grad student quietly terrorized Asian women on campus by clipping snippets of their hair, spraying them with urine and pouring semen or urine in their drinks at university dining halls.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]In March 2005, the state charged him with reckless endangerment, tampering with a food product, harassment, and theft. Lohman had surreptitiously cut locks of hair from at least nine Asian women and poured his urine and semen into the drinks of Asian women more than fifty times in Princeton's graduate student dining hall. When investigators entered Lohman's apartment, which he shared with his wife, an Asian woman, they found stolen women's underwear and mittens filled with the hairs of Asian women, which the believe Lohman used to masturbate.[/FONT][/FONT]
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In another and more disturbing case, it was on a Saturday morning, and the young women, students at a local Japanese school, wanted to go downtown. They had been in the U.S. two months. There was still a lot to see, and everyone seemed so friendly. They had just missed a bus, and it was a biting 9 degrees outside. The woman in the Subaru charmed them, insisted. The students climbed into the car, and off they went. [FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]The driver picked up two men waiting nearby.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]David Dailey and Edmund "Eddie" Ball abducted, handcuffed, and blindfolded two Japanese schoolgirls, ages eighteen and nineteen, in Spokane, Washington. The two girls were taken to a house and raped repeatedly over a span of seven hours. Eddie Ball, the mastermind behind the crime, professed an avid fascination in bondage, Sadomasochism, and Japanese culture. He collected Japanese bondage videos and was an expert in Japanese rope-tying techniques. At his home, police found numerous Japanese-language books. Ball specifically targeted Japanese students because he believed them to be submissive and thus, less likely to report the rapes. However, he believed wrongly. The students reported the crime and aided police in catching the perpetrators. Dailey and Ball faced sentences of twenty-one to twenty-eight years in prison.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[roche.analisa]

It's going to come up in discussion, jmo. I'm sure WSers will be as delicate as possible in discussions here, we typically are. The content is unavoidable though...and unfortunately, it's relevant to the case.

Fair enough. Thank you for explaining. I'm not going anywhere.

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