I've been wondering alot about the phone call the babysitter overheard and have wondered who would have been hassling EJ to return G if it wasn't TS, JM (and I'm not saying it wasn't) or her grandmother. Does it seem like it might be possible for the caller to have been the prospective adoptive mother? Maybe she was angry/scared if she'd heard the story on the news and was worried. She might have been given assurances that the dad was not a factor or that there would be no trouble. I can only come up with reasons for TS, JM, the adoptive parents or LE to have gotten angry. I even can't imagine the grandmother screaming. The timeline eliminates the call from LE. Why would EJ say..."what do you want me to do, take him back?" I'm just asking if anyone has discussed whether there are any other possibilities. Is there a call record for that call? It ought to be pretty traceable unless the call was made to EJ from a disposable pay-as-you-go phone.
Illegal/Underground Adoption Theories and leads
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not_my_kids
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There was little to no news coverage at that point, so I doubt anyone would have seen it. It likely was TPS, I can't see EJ giving the adoptives any way to contact her.
BeanE
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Here's a new article, just published, on a baby trafficking case in Texan. Not related to Gabe's case, but I thought we might get some useful info out of it, e.g., has prices involved.
Texan, girlfriend get 9 years for baby trafficking
Last Update: 5:55 am
A Texas man and his girlfriend were sentenced to nine years in prison for recruiting Mexican women to give birth in the U.S. and sell their babies to couples there, a judge said Wednesday.
Amado Torres, of Harlingen, Texas, and Maria Isabel Hernandez, of Mexico, paid women up to $3,000 for their newborns, Tamaulipas state Judge Jose Luis Bazan told The Associated Press. He handed down their sentences for child trafficking on Jan. 29.
http://www.woai.com/news/local/stor...-baby-trafficking/jB6-TXRTokqfVPIZRMgHVg.cspx
Texan, girlfriend get 9 years for baby trafficking
Last Update: 5:55 am
A Texas man and his girlfriend were sentenced to nine years in prison for recruiting Mexican women to give birth in the U.S. and sell their babies to couples there, a judge said Wednesday.
Amado Torres, of Harlingen, Texas, and Maria Isabel Hernandez, of Mexico, paid women up to $3,000 for their newborns, Tamaulipas state Judge Jose Luis Bazan told The Associated Press. He handed down their sentences for child trafficking on Jan. 29.
http://www.woai.com/news/local/stor...-baby-trafficking/jB6-TXRTokqfVPIZRMgHVg.cspx
The news coverage was sketchy in the beginning but I had heard about EJ and G even where I live by the 26th and I'm guessing AZ and TX news had alot more coverage since it was a local story for them. Even without news coverage, adoptive parents might have heard the story and been warned to stay low and off the radar by the broker of the deal if it was an illegal adoption (think TS or JM here!). I know it's a long shot and, of course you're right ,and I hadn't thought about the idea that the adoptives probably wouldn't have had her phone number (unless it was just a temporary cell set up to complete the deal and she discarded it after she no longer needed it) or they called her on her hotel line--assuming they had pizza with her a few days later she would have let them know how to reach her. I am just grabbing at straws now and I know it sounds far-fetched but... if it wasn't TS or JM, or some other broker, then who? and why?
How discouraging that none of the babies in the article were ever located. And the lengths these culprits will go to to make themselves look like "good guys" that are here to help young mothers. Since having babies in desparate situations is on a definite upturn in the US, you just wonder how often innocents are and how many babies have been funneled through these illegit channels. This case makes me so sad!
mum
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Sorry I took a break from ws for a bit, but not on the case. Thank you to those who pm'd me. This is so frustrating because it could be solved all too easy. All EJ needs to do is give one name of the person who handled the adoption. I believe TS knows who it is also.
mum
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I know adoption can be a wonderful thing for all who are involved, but I know all to well the "ugly's" in adoption. Not only do you have scammers in adoption but you also have adoption professionals who do not adhere to the laws, or they interpret them as they see fit.
The TX law in regards to birthfathers stinks to say the least. I am from SD and this session in legislation we have a bill that is similar to TX law. And just as in Tx, it is an attorney who handles adoption and an adoptive dad who is pushing the bill. They explain that this kind of bill would allow the termination of birthfathers parental rights in a more efficient manner, esp those guys who are sitting in jail/prison and say they don't want to consent to adoption, but mom wants to do an adoption plan, and the dads won't be out to raise or fund the raising of the child. They also state this is one more way for the dad's to protect their rights. When it comes to birthfather registry's, the guy needs to know that one exist and how it works. So far I haven't seen advertising for it, nor any little notes on condom packages.
I am also a mom through adoption, and there is no way, at no time in our adoption journey would I have excepted placement of a baby/child without both parents on board. I know for a fact that there are 100 to my 1 who would close their eyes, and allow the adoption professional "work their magic" as they say, as long as they get the baby/child.
The TX law in regards to birthfathers stinks to say the least. I am from SD and this session in legislation we have a bill that is similar to TX law. And just as in Tx, it is an attorney who handles adoption and an adoptive dad who is pushing the bill. They explain that this kind of bill would allow the termination of birthfathers parental rights in a more efficient manner, esp those guys who are sitting in jail/prison and say they don't want to consent to adoption, but mom wants to do an adoption plan, and the dads won't be out to raise or fund the raising of the child. They also state this is one more way for the dad's to protect their rights. When it comes to birthfather registry's, the guy needs to know that one exist and how it works. So far I haven't seen advertising for it, nor any little notes on condom packages.
I am also a mom through adoption, and there is no way, at no time in our adoption journey would I have excepted placement of a baby/child without both parents on board. I know for a fact that there are 100 to my 1 who would close their eyes, and allow the adoption professional "work their magic" as they say, as long as they get the baby/child.
mum
New Member
There are birthfather registry's in alot of states. Unfortunatly. Utah is one of the worst states for birthfather rights.
Another thing about birthfather rights, such as TX has, is this will bring in alot of pregnant gals, or moms with a baby/child, like EJ, and the agency/attorney will make mookooo bucks off adoption parents.
Another thing about birthfather rights, such as TX has, is this will bring in alot of pregnant gals, or moms with a baby/child, like EJ, and the agency/attorney will make mookooo bucks off adoption parents.
mum
New Member
The missing link for me is:
EJ went to TX for the purpose of circumventing LM rights. I believe in my heart that TPS helped her with gaining this knowledge and helped her make her plan and how/when she would leave AZ. If it is fact, that TPS and EJ met at TPS church so EJ could take Gabriel. I find the meeting at the church a curious choice of places to meet even if it has been said that EJ didn't want to know where TPS lived. Did TPS pastor have something to do with all of this? or someone from the church?? What I don't understand yet, is why EJ placed with someone else and not TPS and JS. TPS would never have given up that easily and just helped EJ get Gabriel to a "safe home". TPS has not revealed all her info.
I know potential adoptive parents like TPS and once they start, there is no stopping them. It is scary. So I always bounce back and forth on whether TPS knows where Gabriel is, or not. I am not convinced yet one way or the other.
EJ went to TX for the purpose of circumventing LM rights. I believe in my heart that TPS helped her with gaining this knowledge and helped her make her plan and how/when she would leave AZ. If it is fact, that TPS and EJ met at TPS church so EJ could take Gabriel. I find the meeting at the church a curious choice of places to meet even if it has been said that EJ didn't want to know where TPS lived. Did TPS pastor have something to do with all of this? or someone from the church?? What I don't understand yet, is why EJ placed with someone else and not TPS and JS. TPS would never have given up that easily and just helped EJ get Gabriel to a "safe home". TPS has not revealed all her info.
I know potential adoptive parents like TPS and once they start, there is no stopping them. It is scary. So I always bounce back and forth on whether TPS knows where Gabriel is, or not. I am not convinced yet one way or the other.
Not sure where to put this so please redirect me if someone thinks there is a better spot. In a much earlier post I saw that EJ said the adoptive couple was a dark haired large man and blond woman,built similar to herself and going by the name Cheryl. Reading a completely different post on TS and her legal history plus her marriages/relationships, I saw that TS has a family member (K) with a wife named Cheryl. Weird coincidence or worth looking into?
Concernedmomarizona
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Prof
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Mum, do legitimate adoption agencies do things like put birth mothers up in hotels? It seems like that might be against TX state adoption laws as far as what an agency can legally pay for?
Would they tell the birth mother where to stay?
Would they tell the adoptive parents where to stay?
Do you have any idea of how these legitimate agencies in the phone book work?
If EJ found underground help--not listed in the phone book, how would one go about finding these underground adoption people?
Any ideas?
Would they tell the birth mother where to stay?
Would they tell the adoptive parents where to stay?
Do you have any idea of how these legitimate agencies in the phone book work?
If EJ found underground help--not listed in the phone book, how would one go about finding these underground adoption people?
Any ideas?
mum
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I believe he is alive!! I believe she did a adoption placement. When I read that she was met by a single gentleman at the hotel, who was dressed nice, and when she hired the babysitter and had an appointment and she reacted the way the babysitter said she did, probably because she was stressed about it all and on a timeline and that could have been the day she signed all the papers she need to sign,,,,,,,like the consent or intent to place, etc...I believe her when she said the couple had a car seat and didn't take his. I believe it when I read that she left Gabriels stuff behind,,,,,,,,not sure she left everything of his, but she was traveling light, therefore she would only keep a couple of things for sentimental purpose.
I believe she was finally done being a mommy, and she pulled one over on LM (in her mind) and she posted that mood on her myspace as a message to LM and maybe TPS,,but she wanted to dig things in deeper and text'd that msg to LM to drive him crazy and because she didn't believe there was anything he could do.
I remember on one of TPS posting of her emails with EJ, on her FB, or the posting she had some gal put on there, one of them near the end said "if only you hadn't messed this up by sending that text to him" TPS was part of the plan because by then TPS knew LM had been recognized by the courts as Gabriel's father and he had full custody,,,,,,,,,,what was TPS planning on doing once she learned dad had custody? Most people would walk away from the situation knowing they could not be a party to any court procedures etc....
captdj
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They say everywhere you go you leave a footprint behind....
EJ knows how she found this person
EJ knows who this person is or a name she called him
EJ know where she met this person
If she rode in his SUV My money is she even knows the tag number...
With the knowledge she posesses Gabriel could be found....
without it we must find a fingerprint, hair, something left behind. we need a sketch.... lets hope LE has some of these things and the decision not to make them public is the right choice.....
DairyGirl
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I don't believe that TPS knows where Gabriel is. I think LE has enough of her records that if she did know it would have led to him. I think TPS might have had a hand in planning EJ's getaway but maybe once EJ left and got where she was going (or on her way to going to) she decided that things weren't working out (giving Gabriel to the Smiths) and decided to take matters into her own hands. I really believe that TPS thought that she would still get Gabriel, even after EJ was arrested. She was out of the loop at that point but maybe didn't realize it. EJ either researched on her own to get to San Antonio or TPS had a hand in getting her there. Not sure at this point but I am leaning on not because LE would have found this out and put it on her charging documents. Sometimes I think that TPS might have thought she was sending her to TN but EJ had her own ideas. I think LE knows more then I do and they say that TPS does not know where Gabriel is so I take that at face value. I don't know why EJ continues to refuse to help find Gabriel if only to lighten some of her own troubles. I haven't completely ruled out that EJ might have done what she said she did to LM. The amount of time that has gone by and the fact that J.J. Armes seems to have turned up empty handed makes me think he really is gone. I just don't see EJ has being some criminal mastermind that could really arrange for Gabriel to disappear into thin air. Lots of confusion for me as you can tell.
CathyinTexas
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I have always thought this is very significant. It was reported that Tammi's statements in the media alerted the police to her, so maybe this little tidbit was a siren to them. They said it as if they had knowledge, and it was creepy that they said the "adoptive parents" would keep him out of sight until he is 2, if I am correct about that.
DairyGirl
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Babies change so fast. My granddaughter is the same age as Gabriel and I can see how much she has changed in the last 2 months. Her hair has really grown in and gotten darker. Gabriel has not been seen in almost 2 months and he could look like a completely different baby by now. They probably wouldn't have to hide him that long. They may even be dying his hair or have it cut different, or maybe, like it's been said, dressing him like a girl.
mum
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Yes adoption agency's, adoption attorney's put moms up in not only hotels/motels but in apartments they either rent or own. Usually these are moms who are brought into the state for the purpose of doing an adoption plan. Gladney has a whole campus where they house expectant moms. Some promise moms a college education after placement.
I need to take a look again at what TX legally allows as far as expenses. Usually adoptive parents pay for atty fees, agency fees, counseling for expectant parents, atty fees for expectant parents, living expenses which consist of anything pregnancy related, medical, expenses 6 weeks after baby is born,,,,and where the expenses may not be approved by the courts, it could be listed under "gift",,,there are ways around all of these laws.
Yes they would tell a mom where to stay and she would gladly go because she has no other choice for the most part. It is really sad when they bring these young gals to a state other then their own,,,,,,they loose all their support and they are at the mercy of the people who want to take her baby.
Good article to read: http://www.qctimes.com/news/local/article_e815467d-6abd-5f5b-a4eb-81567a6c7d11.html
For the most part they can recommend a place for adoptive parents, but most normally they handle their own accomodations.
If you mean legit, as in licensed by the state and therefore they can advertise in the phone book? Hmmmmmmmmm how to answer that? There are adoption groups that people join looking for the good, bad, and ugly in regards to the adoption professional they are looking to use. One site they would come to is mine, and another would be www.adoptionagencyratings.com Just because they are licensed and legit looking does not make them a good agency.
When I see the word "underground" when it comes to adoption professionals, I think "adoption professionals don't have to work underground" they can interpret the laws just about anyways they want, until they get caught of course. Now the ones who I would check out are "marketing services" in adoption, facilitators (not legal in all states, but what they do is match birthmoms with adoptive parents, and or find adoptive parents for other adoption agency's or attorneys, and then they all stack their fees). You can also have "homestudy agency" who will "match" a birthmom with an adoptive parent. These guys can work under the radar, but not underground per sey.