Illegal/Underground Adoption Theories and leads

[CathyinTexas]

Some of us think TS does know where Gabriel is, or who he is with, some of us don't, and some of us go back and forth. I think she does have an idea on who helped EJ, and she might be able to find out, say if it was through J but she probably isn't going to contact anyone because she is under indictment and being watched. moo

 

[Prof]

I have always thought this is very significant. It was reported that Tammi's statements in the media alerted the police to her, so maybe this little tidbit was a siren to them. They said it as if they had knowledge, and it was creepy that they said the "adoptive parents" would keep him out of sight until he is 2, if I am correct about that.

I personally think that the fact that Jack made a statement on NG about keeping Gabriel under the radar until he needed to be entered back into the system a BIG tell-- and then TS reported EJ as saying essentially the same thing during their second and unrecorded discussion puts the Smith's involvement in EJ's underground adoption in cement -- I just think I am a fairly aware citizen in my decades of life --especially caring for those who need responsible adults to look out for them or back them up in a dark alley-- I would have heard of the sort of mindset where a kidnapped baby can be kept under the radar-- this just does not read as common knowledge to me!

Why would the Smiths -church folks -- be able to think in the same way as child kidnapper/babybrokers if they did not have some IN on this language?

Maybe I am naive

 

[not_my_kids]

I personally think that the fact that Jack made a statement on NG about keeping Gabriel under the radar until he needed to be entered back into the system a BIG tell-- and then TS reported EJ as saying essentially the same thing during their second and unrecorded discussion puts the Smith's involvement in EJ's underground adoption in cement -- I just think I am a fairly aware citizen in my decades of life --especially caring for those who need responsible adults to look out for them or back them up in a dark alley-- I would have heard of the sort of mindset where a kidnapped baby can be kept under the radar-- this just does not read as common knowledge to me!

Why would the Smiths -church folks -- be able to think in the same way as child kidnapper/babybrokers if they did not have some IN on this language?

Maybe I am naive

Honestly, even though I believe that the Smith's had some part in setting this up, the language itself doesn't surprise me. You can watch a few movies and pick up the lingo. Although I personally believe they researched the whole thing, right down to the wording in their lies.

 

[chell]

Their language about it wasn't all that surprising to me either but their total involvement in the search and all the explanations they continually provided ,especially if they weren't involved, was just weird. Their overwelming first response seemed to be trying to explain everything rather than the obvious expected response which IMO would have been grief or noticeable concern. To have an answer for everything, to be trying to direct the investigation, and to be basically acting as the puppeteer in the beginning was completely tell-tale for me. When the search is complete, I have a high degree of confidence, TS will be moving to a bigger house and will have lots of lost souls to save!

 

[BeanE]

Honestly, even though I believe that the Smith's had some part in setting this up, the language itself doesn't surprise me. You can watch a few movies and pick up the lingo. Although I personally believe they researched the whole thing, right down to the wording in their lies.

The Smith's said that Eliz was the one who said the thing about hiding Gabe until he was older during the first part of the interview where the reporter was there. The part before the aired jail interview, that we've only heard a couple little clips from.

Since the reporter and the grandfather were there, and neither of them have said No, Eliz never said that, I tend to believe the Smiths on this one, that it came from Eliz.

MOO

 

[BeanE]

I wish we knew a bit more of the specifics of the process if Eliz went through an agency or service. We have some known facts. I'd really like to know more about exactly what Eliz would have to do, and when. Knowing more of the process might give us some more directions to look in.

We know she showed up in SA on Dec 21. We know she may have had a pre-planned appointment of some type on Dec 23 lasting about an hour to an hour and a half with some drive time. We know Gabe's birth certificate had Logan's name on it. We know Logan has never signed any papers. We know Gabe was gone late Dec 26/early Dec 27 at the latest.

If Eliz had an appt with an agency or service on Dec 23, walked in with Gabe's birth certificate as her only paperwork, and a picture of cute Gabe, and said she wanted to place him for adoption, what would the agency/service have done? What would Eliz have to sign? What paperwork would she have needed to go get and bring back? What are the timeframes?

Let's assume the agency/service immediately knows there's a couple who wants a baby boy, they're all ready to go, and the agency/service contacted them on Dec 23. What does the couple need to do? Any paperwork they need to fill out? What are the timeframes?

TIA

 

[Ives]

BeanE, very well put! short and sweet answers that I do not have, of course. My friend gave her daughter up here in SA. The agency she used paid her rent, while preggo. and helped her a bit with other living costs. I do know she told them she did not know who the father was. and since her baby was not born yet, well, different situation.

I'm wondering if this might be where the fake ID first came into play? Elizabeth Jones. So close to her real name. I do not understand this at all. If There are ways to forge certain documents if you know how(i'm guessing here, I do not know for sure) maybe that was why the easiest name, close to hers?

Johnson
Jones

not much to alter IMO.

 

[b4e]

I wish we knew a bit more of the specifics of the process if Eliz went through an agency or service. We have some known facts. I'd really like to know more about exactly what Eliz would have to do, and when. Knowing more of the process might give us some more directions to look in.

We know she showed up in SA on Dec 21. We know she may have had a pre-planned appointment of some type on Dec 23 lasting about an hour to an hour and a half with some drive time. We know Gabe's birth certificate had Logan's name on it. We know Logan has never signed any papers. We know Gabe was gone late Dec 26/early Dec 27 at the latest.

If Eliz had an appt with an agency or service on Dec 23, walked in with Gabe's birth certificate as her only paperwork, and a picture of cute Gabe, and said she wanted to place him for adoption, what would the agency/service have done? What would Eliz have to sign? What paperwork would she have needed to go get and bring back? What are the timeframes?

Let's assume the agency/service immediately knows there's a couple who wants a baby boy, they're all ready to go, and the agency/service contacted them on Dec 23. What does the couple need to do? Any paperwork they need to fill out? What are the timeframes?

TIA

I gave up a baby when I was much younger, but I imagine the laws are still similar. A legitimate adoption takes a lot longer, even with an initial appointment scheduled in advance, as Elizabeth may have done. If Logan was on the birth certificate, he would have to be located, or a considerable attempt made to do so. If she had Gabe's birth certificate altered somehow so the father was not listed, a notice would have to be published requesting that anyone who had been with her in the time frame when Gabe had been conceived contact them immediately. This type of notice is often published in a 'shopper' type newspaper or publication (where no one who needed to see it would be likely to come across it) but still it must be done. Then (in a legitimate adoption) a termination of parental rights hearing is scheduled. It would be nearly impossible to get this whole procedure started (and totally impossible to complete it) in the time frame we're looking at.

This adoption - if there was one - was NOT legitimate.

 

[not_my_kids]

BeanE, very well put! short and sweet answers that I do not have, of course. My friend gave her daughter up here in SA. The agency she used paid her rent, while preggo. and helped her a bit with other living costs. I do know she told them she did not know who the father was. and since her baby was not born yet, well, different situation.

I'm wondering if this might be where the fake ID first came into play? Elizabeth Jones. So close to her real name. I do not understand this at all. If There are ways to forge certain documents if you know how(i'm guessing here, I do not know for sure) maybe that was why the easiest name, close to hers?

Johnson
Jones

not much to alter IMO.

Um, I don't have a source for this...:angel:
The best alias to use is something close to your real name. Johnson becomes Jones, Robert becomes Richard, Steven becomes Stephen...A complicated alias will trip you up every time. You need something simple that you don't have to think about, especially if you know there is a chance you will be using it when sleep deprived or under stress.

I would love to know, just like you, when she started using that ID, or that name, but I don't think we are going to find out anytime soon.

 

[BeanE]

I gave up a baby when I was much younger, but I imagine the laws are still similar. A legitimate adoption takes a lot longer, even with an initial appointment scheduled in advance, as Elizabeth may have done. If Logan was on the birth certificate, he would have to be located, or a considerable attempt made to do so. If she had Gabe's birth certificate altered somehow so the father was not listed, a notice would have to be published requesting that anyone who had been with her in the time frame when Gabe had been conceived contact them immediately. This type of notice is often published in a 'shopper' type newspaper or publication (where no one who needed to see it would be likely to come across it) but still it must be done. Then (in a legitimate adoption) a termination of parental rights hearing is scheduled. It would be nearly impossible to get this whole procedure started (and totally impossible to complete it) in the time frame we're looking at.

This adoption - if there was one - was NOT legitimate.

Thank you, b4e. That's very helpful. So, to make this work in our known timeframe, she would have to have shown up at that meeting with either Gabe's original birth certificate and falsified termination papers from Logan - his signature and notarized? - or a falsified birth certificate and falsified termination papers from the false father with a false signature and notarized?

If she had those termination papers all signed and notarized, would a notice still have to be published, and/or a court hearing for termination of parental rights still have to be held before she turned Gabe over on the 26th?

(from Mum above) When I see the word "underground" when it comes to adoption professionals, I think "adoption professionals don't have to work underground" they can interpret the laws just about anyways they want, until they get caught of course. Now the ones who I would check out are "marketing services" in adoption, facilitators (not legal in all states, but what they do is match birthmoms with adoptive parents, and or find adoptive parents for other adoption agency's or attorneys, and then they all stack their fees). You can also have "homestudy agency" who will "match" a birthmom with an adoptive parent. These guys can work under the radar, but not underground per sey.

Would one of these agencies/matching services help her then to falsify the documents or tell her where to get falsified documents in order to get this completed by Dec 26?

If she walked in the door with all the falsified documents, all notarized and ready to go, how would the agency/service get around the need for publication or a hearing?

What if she also had a fake death certificate for the father? Would that make it work by the 26th?

 

[BeanE]

If we can nail down a list of what she needed to make this work by the 26th, it will help narrow down what we need to look at, and can also be sent to LE as a tip for places/things for them to look into.

e.g. if only a certain type of agency/service could have handled this, it narrows down a list of these places that LE can 'visit' and look at their records.

If she would have needed a fake death certificate for a father, they can check Tammi's computer forensics to see if she was 'researching' that, etc, and they can tap into their known people in SA and Tempe who deal with fake death certificates.

Bear with me - I'm brainstorming on my first cup of coffee.

 

[DairyGirl]

I really don't think EJ went to any kind of trouble. I doubt she falsified documents or worried about it. She probably contacted whoever she contacted and let them take care of everything. I doubt they even tried to make believe that it was legal. She just handed over Gabriel and let them worry about it. All they would really have to do is come up with a birth certificate, legal or not. I don't think there will be any kind of paper trail to trip them up. They may even be out of the country and just figured out a way to get whatever papers they needed. This was not a legal adoption and I don't think they tried to pretend it could be.

 

[BeanE]

I really don't think EJ went to any kind of trouble. I doubt she falsified documents or worried about it. She probably contacted whoever she contacted and let them take care of everything. I doubt they even tried to make believe that it was legal. She just handed over Gabriel and let them worry about it. All they would really have to do is come up with a birth certificate, legal or not. I don't think there will be any kind of paper trail to trip them up. They may even be out of the country and just figured out a way to get whatever papers they needed. This was not a legal adoption and I don't think they tried to pretend it could be.

I agree, Dairy. I just don't want to dismiss this scenario out of hand, so I'm trying to find out exactly how it would have, or could have, worked with the known facts we have.

 

[b4e]

Thank you, b4e. That's very helpful. So, to make this work in our known timeframe, she would have to have shown up at that meeting with either Gabe's original birth certificate and falsified termination papers from Logan - his signature and notarized? - or a falsified birth certificate and falsified termination papers from the false father with a false signature and notarized?

If she had those termination papers all signed and notarized, would a notice still have to be published, and/or a court hearing for termination of parental rights still have to be held before she turned Gabe over on the 26th?



Would one of these agencies/matching services help her then to falsify the documents or tell her where to get falsified documents in order to get this completed by Dec 26?

If she walked in the door with all the falsified documents, all notarized and ready to go, how would the agency/service get around the need for publication or a hearing?

What if she also had a fake death certificate for the father? Would that make it work by the 26th?

Every state may be slightly different (Texas adoption laws seem a bit...um...lax) but I had to sign the termination paper in court, in front of the judge. The baby had been premature, so there was an extra waiting period until she was adoptable, but there still HAD to be a court hearing, at least that was the law in Wisconsin. We had to go the publication route in terms of the father (as this was the result of a violent act) so I am not certain about this, but I believe that - here anyway - the father would have had to attend the hearing to sign, if he was known or had been found.

My caseworker at the time (this was 20+ years ago) handled the majority of the paperwork for me. I did sign initial consent papers while still in the hospital after delivery, but there HAD to be a hearing. Maybe Texas law is drastically different, but I just don't see a legitimate way around the legalities, notarized statements or not.

O/T for just one sentence: I found my daughter again, online, several years ago - and she and the daughter I raised are now even closer than if they'd grown up together. (Sorry for the O/T, but just had to put the cap on my own story.)

 

[BeanE]

Every state may be slightly different (Texas adoption laws seem a bit...um...lax) but I had to sign the termination paper in court, in front of the judge. The baby had been premature, so there was an extra waiting period until she was adoptable, but there still HAD to be a court hearing, at least that was the law in Wisconsin. We had to go the publication route in terms of the father (as this was the result of a violent act) so I am not certain about this, but I believe that - here anyway - the father would have had to attend the hearing to sign, if he was known or had been found.

My caseworker at the time (this was 20+ years ago) handled the majority of the paperwork for me. I did sign initial consent papers while still in the hospital after delivery, but there HAD to be a hearing. Maybe Texas law is drastically different, but I just don't see a legitimate way around the legalities, notarized statements or not.

O/T for just one sentence: I found my daughter again, online, several years ago - and she and the daughter I raised are now even closer than if they'd grown up together. (Sorry for the O/T, but just had to put the cap on my own story.)

Thank you, b4e. I hadn't even been thinking of the termination of Elizabeth's parental rights, I was focusing so much on Logan's.

So, it looks like to make this work, there would also have to be notarized papers signed by Elizabeth, and a court hearing to terminate her rights.

Combined with everything else needed, I'm not seeing how this could work by Dec 26, but I'm getting a better understanding of exactly what would be needed.

O/T - I'm so glad about your daughter

 

[b4e]

Thank you, b4e. I hadn't even been thinking of the termination of Elizabeth's parental rights, I was focusing so much on Logan's.

So, it looks like to make this work, there would also have to be notarized papers signed by Elizabeth, and a court hearing to terminate her rights.

Combined with everything else needed, I'm not seeing how this could work by Dec 26, but I'm getting a better understanding of exactly what would be needed.

O/T - I'm so glad about your daughter

That's why I believe Gabe was either sold or sent into the underground (i.e. 'adopted' illegally). Or, possibly, he's being hidden somewhere for the Smiths.

 

[Kat101]

Thank you, b4e. I hadn't even been thinking of the termination of Elizabeth's parental rights, I was focusing so much on Logan's.

So, it looks like to make this work, there would also have to be notarized papers signed by Elizabeth, and a court hearing to terminate her rights.

Combined with everything else needed, I'm not seeing how this could work by Dec 26, but I'm getting a better understanding of exactly what would be needed.

O/T - I'm so glad about your daughter

i had once wrote on another thread about a relative of mine that signed notarized papers terminating her rights.the father wasnt notified, there was nothing put in a paper looking for him.now she "claims" that she had thought she signed a paper saying this other woman could take her to the doc, etc because she was "babysitting" the child for weeks at a time.her and the dad were still together at this time.when they tried to get the baby back they had reported her kiddnapped and an amber alert was issued for her.the woman turned her in that day. then they all went to court the following week and now the parents both only get visitation and have to pay the woman child support.the father never signed anything giving up his rights just the mom.this all happened in houston,tx and the baby was only about 6 months old.

just alittle insight into texas laws...?

also we do believe there was some sort of trade for a house and child involved with this... so gabe being sold or possible traded for something

 

[mum]

I wish we knew a bit more of the specifics of the process if Eliz went through an agency or service. We have some known facts. I'd really like to know more about exactly what Eliz would have to do, and when. Knowing more of the process might give us some more directions to look in.

We know she showed up in SA on Dec 21. We know she may have had a pre-planned appointment of some type on Dec 23 lasting about an hour to an hour and a half with some drive time. We know Gabe's birth certificate had Logan's name on it. We know Logan has never signed any papers. We know Gabe was gone late Dec 26/early Dec 27 at the latest.

If Eliz had an appt with an agency or service on Dec 23, walked in with Gabe's birth certificate as her only paperwork, and a picture of cute Gabe, and said she wanted to place him for adoption, what would the agency/service have done? What would Eliz have to sign? What paperwork would she have needed to go get and bring back? What are the timeframes?

Let's assume the agency/service immediately knows there's a couple who wants a baby boy, they're all ready to go, and the agency/service contacted them on Dec 23. What does the couple need to do? Any paperwork they need to fill out? What are the timeframes?

TIA

I would like to try and answer this with the knowledge I have of adoption but I have one question. Did Gabriels orginal birth certificate have Logan's name on it?

Here's what happens when an expectant mom or mom with a baby/child decides to make an adoption plan.
She calls agency, attorney,marketing service, facilitator, or adoption consultant and tells them she wants to do an adoption.
All of these adoption professionals have a list of Potential Adoptive Parents, or they can easily network with others who know of parents that are interested in a baby/child, any where in the US or even in other countries. A baby at Gabriel's age is a commodity to unethical adoption professionals. He can bring in big money.
A mom would not necessarily have to bring any document with her. ESP. info on birthdad in the state of TX. She does not HAVE to bring a birth certificate, because it can be easily gotten at a later date if it is gotten at all. False birth certificates are easy to get for some people. Sad but very true. And adoption brings big money and there are greedy people in the adoption industry.
The birthfather registry in TX is set up so that if mom does/or does not name bd, and his name does not appear on the bd registry, his rights are automatically terminated. EVEN if there is a open custody case elsewhere.
In fact in my state of South Dakota there is a bill in legislation right now that is similar to the TX law. It virtually states that if dad who is named or unnamed is not on the registry he then has no rights when it comes to his baby and adoption.
When a mom/expectant mom calls an agency a file is started on her, and if she says she has a baby already born, they would immediatly start going through their files for parents who would best suit the situation.
If you have an unethical adoption professional, that baby could be placed within hours. The unethical adoption professional would not verify a thing. I see it all the time. Adoptive parents loose thousands and thousands of dollars to these people all the time.
If a mom were to work with an ethical agency, she would need to verify that the child/baby is hers. The bc would be the main document, along with her picture ID. Other forms would help.
All she would need to fill out and sign would be things such as medical and social history, an intent to place form, relinguishment form,denial of counseling form, or she would spend time with a social worker of the agency's and deem that counseling. If it is an agency, she may not have to meet with an attorney, as the agency would have an atty in place.
No one can make a mom go to court. It can be requested, but they will not arrest her if she does not show up for any kind of court case where adoption is involved. They would just further deem her rights terminated. They can tell you to go to court and you have to go before a judge, but it is not set in stone.
As far as the couple, they would already be signed up with the agency/or other adoption professional and their homestudy would be in place and on file. They would have to travel to where the mom and baby are. Sometimes everyone meets, sometime not, all depends on what mom wants. Potential adoptive parents are ready to travel at a moments notice.
The adoptive parents would be handed physical custody of the baby/child while the adoption professional would maintain legal custody. By mom signing her consent to adoption or relinguishment she would be giving all legal and physical custody over to that adoption professional. In Tx that can be an agency or attorney. The legal custody would not be handed to the new parents until they have 2-3 post placement visits and a waiting period of six months in some states. It all depends on where the adoption is finalized and what the state requirements are. The adoption professional determines how many post placements, but the state of finalization determines how soon the adoption can be finalized.
If the baby/child is placed outside of the state where mom signed relinguishment, then what is suppose to happen is the adoption professional will file an ICPC (interstate compact agreement).
ICPC= in this situation, TX would be the giving state and the new parents state would be the receiving state. If ICPC is filed (which is law across the US) the state of TX (adoption specialist in capital) would send mega paperwork to the receiving state. TX would need to have info on the new home, and that these people are who they say they are, live where they say they do, work where they say they do, etc.....once Tx has all of its answers then the adoption professional will give the new family permission to leave the state of TX and go home. This can take anywhere between 2 hours to 10 days, all depends on each state and their ability to communicate and office hours(monday-friday,8-5,). If the baby is placed with new family outside of the country, no ICPC is done. It is not an international law, just federal law.
At some point, if this is an ethical placement, the adoption professional would have to file court papers. I would imagine the LE or investigators are checking with the courts, but there is alot of county's in TX, the case should be in the county where the consent was signed, but I do not believe that is law but not sure about that one. So that makes me wonder if an unethical adoption professional has a judge in their pocket who signs off on a baby's case with a false birth certificate? Also I wonder if the person LM got his false ID from has been questioned? LM's criminal has him charged with having false ID. Maybe EJ went to that person and got one too?
Sorry guys, I know I went on and one here.

 

[BeanE]

I would like to try and answer this with the knowledge I have of adoption but I have one question. Did Gabriels orginal birth certificate have Logan's name on it?

Thank you so much, mum. This is going to take me a bit to digest, but I wanted to answer your question real quick. Yes, the family confirmed (see the Questions for the Family thread) that Logan has always been on Gabe's birth certificate, and there has never been a question or any stories or rumors about paternity.

 

[momtective]

The birthfather registry in TX is set up so that if mom does/or does not name bd, and his name does not appear on the bd registry, his rights are automatically terminated. EVEN if there is a open custody case elsewhere.

Thank you for stating again what I have said repeatedly, "It does not matter if Logan is on the B/C at all in the State of TX...unfortunatly, fathers have very few rights here when it comes to their children. If he isn't on the birth father registry then the adoption can and probably will be consummated in about 5 months. It's appalling I know but it can be done...as EJ said "Were there's a will there's a way."