I'm new and I have some questions to the JBR case

[jarmaninski]

I just read up on this case in the last few days: thousands of posts and bits of thoughts and political maneuvers but the bottom line gist of everything is this: murders happen.. They find people in a field after 20 years or a foot in an ocean and somehow they figure out who did it. This case is open and shut 100 percent unless you look at things that have nothing to do with a murder.

This girl was alive at 10 pm on December 25 and dead by 1:00 December 26.
She had undigested pineapple in her stomach and rigor mortis. This made the coroner put her time of death at between 10pm and 6 am but closer to 10 pm. She was found in a basement storage area with no windows and one door. The one door had an outside latch so that anyone who was in there couldn't come out. There were three people in the house. A nine year old boy, a mother, and a father. No one heard a person come or go during the night. The cause of death is STRANGULATION by garrote. It doesn't matter who hit her on the head prior but someone completed the deed. So whoever was the person who made the garrote and strangled her ( no matter what was done prior)!is the murderer. The 9 year old did not make a garrote, so that leaves mom or dad. I believe it was the mother's paintbrush used but the autopsy shows a very forceful indentation around the girl's neck so it seems to me that dad did it.
Murder is the crime in this case.. Not kidnapping or sexual assault or anything else. There is not one shred of evidence that anyone other than the mother or father did this. Not one, and I have looked at everything.
I don't see what the DA was so confused about. They let the parents define this as a kidnapping and then got all bogged down by that. Say the parents called and said their daughter was murdered right off the bat how would this have been handled?
Because in the end that's what it is.


Some random thoughts about other stuff
The ransom note-not relevant/ not a kidnapping but....seriously, it's written with stuff in the house? When would that have been written? While she was supposedly alive and kicking and screaming or when she was dead? By the way....if you were kidnapping her... Take her for the ransom, no one knew she was dead. You could still get your money.
The basement window- it snowed overnight, any intruder would have left marks all over the inside of the house as the snow melted on their shoes.
The suitcase by the window... Please... Why exit that way?.. You are already in the house, just go out through a door.
Also, just as a side note the whole questionable trauma to her vagina...... How about a bike.... She got a new frigging bike for Christmas... Just learning how to ride it... No wonder they couldn't find any relevant DNA.. No pedophile!
They sound like they were a bit of a nutty family, but it isn't necessary to explain everything.
Think about that foot in the ocean or that girl in a field. Maybe they had potty training issues or something weird but it doesn't have to be explained.
THREE people had access to this girl... One made a garrote and asphyxiated her. I don't know why he did that but he did.

 

[UKGuy]

Jarmaninski,

THREE people had access to this girl... One made a garrote and asphyxiated her. I don't know why he did that but he did.

The garrote might represent staging, its there to cover up what really took place?

JonBenet might have been held by the throat to prevent her from screaming, could the application of the garrote really be a form of mercy killing?

The suitcase by the window... Please... Why exit that way?.. You are already in the house, just go out through a door.

Yes, now that is so obvious you have to wonder what incentivated Lou Smit to promote his IDI complete with climbing in the broken window.

How about all the stuff regarding the window and the suitcase, etc being a story narrated by John and repurposed by Lou Smit after a prayer session?

The real question is why did the Intruder take JonBenet down to the basement, why not, as you rightly suggest, just walk out the front door with her, why assault her in the house, why not wait till later?

They sound like they were a bit of a nutty family, but it isn't necessary to explain everything.

Sure, so nutty, Patsy, Burke, and JonBenet were all in therapy. The official line is it was to cope with Patsy's cancer. Yet they argued that the Ramsey medical records should remain private, so investigators never laid eyes on them.

What at first sight seems to be an open and shut Intruder case morphs into a case of bizarre millionare details such as the Millionaire's Daughter wearing not only her brothers longjohns but also his pajama bottoms along with Bloomingdales Size-12 underwear so large that not even the elasticated waist would have held them up.

Add in that the Coroner thought that JonBenet had been subjected to Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact an opinion backed up by a second MD who examined JonBenet the evening of the autopsy, also that JonBenet liked sleepovers and pageants.

No wonder it went viral !

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[Dragognosis]

"The cause of death is STRANGULATION by garrote. "

Nope. <modsnip>. Ligature strangulation is what the autopsy report says.

"autopsy shows a very forceful indentation around the girl's neck so it seems to me that dad did it."

<modsnip>. Pulling on the handle is one way of drawing the neck ligature tight, NOT the only way.

Steve Thomas wrote in his book that the neck ligature was constructed more like a noose than a twisting garrote.

That implies hanging. The 40 pound weight of the body could have pulled the ligature tight.

 

[meanmaryjean]

"They let the parents define this as a kidnapping and then got all bogged down by that."

Brilliant analysis! Agree 100%

 

[jarmaninski]

"The cause of death is STRANGULATION by garrote. "

Nope. <modsnip>. Ligature strangulation is what the autopsy report says.

"autopsy shows a very forceful indentation around the girl's neck so it seems to me that dad did it."

<modsnip>. Pulling on the handle is one way of drawing the neck ligature tight, NOT the only way.

Steve Thomas wrote in his book that the neck ligature was constructed more like a noose than a twisting garrote.

That implies hanging. The 40 pound weight of the body could have pulled the ligature tight.

Ok I give you that I used the incorrect wording but same idea, I am new to this so thank you for getting me to be more precise. My point was whoever did the strangulation by ligature is the murderer because until that moment no matter what else had happened prior, she was still alive. The person who did the strangulation knew that they were killing her. That was deliberate.
I read but cannot cite. ( I wish now that I would have kept citation notes) that she specifically was not hanged because the ligature marks did not go upward. The report stated that due to that fact ( that the impression lines of the string did not go upward) and the presence of saliva and mucous, they believed that she was lying face down and was asphyxiated by the pressure of the garrote. The use of the garrote might have been used to give some sort of message to someone but was also in fact the actual murder weapon.

 

[Dragognosis]

The ligature furrow ... is almost completely horizontal with SLIGHT UPWARD DEVIATION from the horizontal towards the BACK OF THE NECK. The midline of the furrow mark on the anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head. Autopsy report.

8 - 6.75 = 1.25 inches higher in the back.
Can't have it both ways: either horizontal, almost horizontal or sloping.

That means there was a visibly noticeable upward deviation of the furrow at the slip knot at the back of the neck and possibly a measureable upward slope of the furrow from front to back.

Hanging is indicated. And hanging does not always produce a furrow off the horizontal.

 

[Dragognosis]

There was bruising on the lower front neck with definite front to back upward slope indicating an initial strangulation if not an initial attempt at hanging.

 

[Dragognosis]

The amount of bleeding in the brain and swelling indicate the head blow followed the strangulation, either after the first strangulation or the hanging with possibly the blow delivered while the body was hanging.

 

[UKGuy]

The ligature furrow ... is almost completely horizontal with SLIGHT UPWARD DEVIATION from the horizontal towards the BACK OF THE NECK. The midline of the furrow mark on the anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head. Autopsy report.

8 - 6.75 = 1.25 inches higher in the back.
Can't have it both ways: either horizontal, almost horizontal or sloping.

That means there was a visibly noticeable upward deviation of the furrow at the slip knot at the back of the neck and possibly a measureable upward slope of the furrow from front to back.

Hanging is indicated. And hanging does not always produce a furrow off the horizontal.

Dragognosis,
BBM: Nah, surely you mean speculated only the Coroner can observe.

There are no Liver Mortis signs as you might expect to see if the blood was draining vertically and JonBenet's hyoid bone was intact as was the surrounding tissue, e.g. no excessive pressure here.

.

 

[UKGuy]

"The cause of death is STRANGULATION by garrote. "

Nope. <modsnip>. Ligature strangulation is what the autopsy report says.

"autopsy shows a very forceful indentation around the girl's neck so it seems to me that dad did it."

<modsnip>. Pulling on the handle is one way of drawing the neck ligature tight, NOT the only way.

Steve Thomas wrote in his book that the neck ligature was constructed more like a noose than a twisting garrote.

That implies hanging. The 40 pound weight of the body could have pulled the ligature tight.

Dragognosis,
Ramsey, JonBenet Autopsy Report, Excerpt

CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with cranio cerebral trauma.

John E. Meyer, M.D. Pathologist jn/12/27/96 NAME: RAMSEY, JONBENET AUTOPSY NO:96A-155 Page 2 The body of this six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to an address ....

BBM: Nope, you need to read up on the case. Coroner Meyer cites the cause of death as asphyxia by strangulation and associated head injury.

As I've already mentioned the ligature strangulation might be a cover for a manual constriction of JonBenet's neck?

The garrote is pure staging, its not needed to asphyxiate JonBenet a hand or a pillow would be sufficient.

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[mickey2942]

I always wondered why we took at face value the parents claim that NO One else was in the house.

 

[Dragognosis]

"There are no Liver Mortis signs"

Hanging first, placement in room second well before liver mortis set in.

"The garrote is pure staging, its not needed to asphyxiate."

As I said the neck ligature is purely functional as a means to hang.

 

[UKGuy]

"There are no Liver Mortis signs"

Hanging first, placement in room second well before liver mortis set in.

"The garrote is pure staging, its not needed to asphyxiate."

As I said the neck ligature is purely functional as a means to hang.

Dragognosis,
Nope, the ligature/paintbrush is there to cover up what went before. From memory, as the photographs are not reccomended viewing, the ligature furrow is circumferential which does not support a hanging assumption.

Hanging would leave the classic V-Shape furrow, this is absent.


Although JonBenet might have been ligature or/and manually strangled the paintbrush has simply been added for effect !

What you get in the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene including JonBenet, e.g. Patsy's niece's size-12's, Burke's longjohns, the paintbrush/ligature device all designed to put you off the scent.

Guess what it worked.

.

 

[Dragognosis]

Nope, the neck ligature was functional as a noose and the means to hold the noose for hanging.

Search - neck furrow strangulation. Some of the pictures show horizontal furrows. Warning disturbing pictures.

 

[Dragognosis]

"Hanging would leave the classic V-Shape furrow, this is absent."

<modsnip> Hanging victim photos will show horizontal furrows and the bodies are way over 40 pounds.

 

[jarmaninski]

This is some interesting discussion but I am not sure as to where we are on this particular point. The term asphyxiation simply means without air. So I'm not sure where the idea that the ligature was simply a staging prop. It was used to cut off her air supply. It says so in the autopsy report. However, I see nothing at all regarding hanging. I see that the garrote was tightened from behind as she lay face down. Also, if you look at the autopsy photo the deep ligature indentation reaches completely around her neck to nearly her backbone. Although there is slight upward draw of the ligature that could be just due to where the perpetrator was. I don't see anything in any report anywhere that there was a sign of hanging. No hook. No mention of longer string or damage to the paintbrush... Is there some citation regarding this that I missed or is that a conjecture.
No manual strangulation was done. That would have left fingerprints on the neck. If you see photos of manual strangulations there is a very distinct imprint of fingers.

 

[Dragognosis]

I don't see anywhere in the report anything about a garrote.

It is pure conjecture to call the neck ligature a garrote.

It is pure conjecture to call anything done staging.

It is pure conjecture to see the neck ligature tightened from behind.

 

[UKGuy]

This is some interesting discussion but I am not sure as to where we are on this particular point. The term asphyxiation simply means without air. So I'm not sure where the idea that the ligature was simply a staging prop. It was used to cut off her air supply. It says so in the autopsy report. However, I see nothing at all regarding hanging. I see that the garrote was tightened from behind as she lay face down. Also, if you look at the autopsy photo the deep ligature indentation reaches completely around her neck to nearly her backbone. Although there is slight upward draw of the ligature that could be just due to where the perpetrator was. I don't see anything in any report anywhere that there was a sign of hanging. No hook. No mention of longer string or damage to the paintbrush... Is there some citation regarding this that I missed or is that a conjecture.
No manual strangulation was done. That would have left fingerprints on the neck. If you see photos of manual strangulations there is a very distinct imprint of fingers.

jarmaninski,

The term asphyxiation simply means without air. So I'm not sure where the idea that the ligature was simply a staging prop.

The coroner is stating that JonBenet died due to an an absence of oxygen caused by strangulation and her head injury.

Just because the ligature and paintbrush were used to fabricate a garrote does not mean that the ligature had not already been used with the paintbrush being added for effect?

Consider that the paintbrush might have been used to assault JonBenet internally, again another possible staging factor, thereby making its use in a garrote a nice sleight of hand?

Not dialling for medical assistance tells you JonBenet was unconcious otherwise ligature strangulation is not required.

JonBenet might have been held by her neck in an arm-lock prior to lasping into a coma, the ligature might be being employed to mask this?

Even the head blow might be prior failed staging we have know way of knowing.

What we do have is a sexual assault, blunt force trauma to the head, and ligature strangulation.

Does the order of these events matter, is one the motive and the others a consequence, you decide.

If the sexual assault is staging why was it covered up by wiping down JonBenet, as per Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks, and redressing her in size-12's and longjohns, why not leave JonBenet displayed as a victim of an Intruder?

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[UKGuy]

"Hanging would leave the classic V-Shape furrow, this is absent."

<modsnip>. Hanging victim photos will show horizontal furrows and the bodies are way over 40 pounds.

Dragognosis,
We have been down this road many times and the consensus is that there was no hanging.


the likely scenario is that JonBenet was assaulted upstairs then staged in her bedroom and subsequently moved down to the basement.

Relocation to the basement does not have to mean direct to the wine-cellar JonBenet may have been hidden elsewhere then moved by John Ramsey once he decided he would have to find her?

.

 

[Dragognosis]

Everything was done downstairs. She was displayed by hanging by the neck ligature with arms raised by the arm ligature. Everything was deliberate and functional.