Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #159

[WildHuncher]

I'd have to say both, based on the usage of the words "their clothing". If one of them was still dressed, I don't think it wouldn't have been written this way. It would have more accurately said

"the ***redacted*** of Victim 1 was missing from the scene while the rest of her clothing was recovered"

I'm sure it's already been discussed at length, but based on the sentence structure (clothing being the subject) and the length of the word or words redacted, it seems the word is likely undergarments, underwear or under pants. And, while it just enrages me to think about it, I hope the monster kept them all this time, and LE found them during the search of his house. Slam flippin' dunk. (I'm going to hope this is the case).

jmo

Thing is, some unspecified clothing items WERE recovered from the creek. That was reported in 2017, somewhere. The Allen PCA now confirms these items were from the girls, apparently both of them. So the killer didn't really remove them. At least, not very far. That would mean they weren't at his house. His wife would probably have had questions had they been there.

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

The PCA says in a couple of places that there were people in the park throughout the time period who should have seen him fish-watching and bridge-sitting--but they didn't.

JMO.

Correct, that’s why I speculate RA provided it as a cover story. I do not believe RA’s account of sitting on the bench.

He had already said in the 2017 narrative that he was in the trail area from 1330 to 1530.

He tried to place himself as far away from the crime scene(s) as possible during the time of the crime.

LE clearly states in the PC Affadavit their belief that RA was committing the crime during the time he claims he was sitting on the bench.
JMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Thing is, some unspecified clothing items WERE recovered from the creek. That was reported in 2017, somewhere. The Allen PCA now confirms these items were from the girls, apparently both of them. So the killer didn't really remove them. At least, not very far. That would mean they weren't at his house. His wife would probably have had questions had they been there.

We seem to be posting past each other

So you think the redacted article(s) of clothing were later found, and that all of their clothes are accounted for?

 

[WildHuncher]

How does it present a conflict? I remember reading that a long time ago and that was the first word that popped into my head. I think I spend far too much time reading redacted legal docs but that's probably why my brain went there.

"... Belonging to Victim1 and Victim2..." versus "of one of the victim's" [sic]

 

[WildHuncher]

We seem to be posting past each other

So you think the redacted article(s) of clothing were later found, and that all of their clothes are accounted for?

There's a question whether everything was accounted for. The missing item might not be the same as the items recovered from the creek.

Both documents are deliberately vague here, IMHO.

ETA: The RL document makes no mention of anything found in the creek, only something missing from the crime scene. The Allen document only mentions clothing recovered from the creek.

 

[Confusion]

Probably a dumb idea, but is it possible that the person who saw him in all black is colorblind? If s/he couldn't see blues, they may only show up as dark or light.

 

[EOA]

JMO.

Correct, that’s why I speculate RA provided it as a cover story. I do not believe RA’s account of sitting on the bench.

He had already said in the 2017 narrative that he was in the trail area from 1330 to 1530.

He tried to place himself as far away from the crime scene(s) as possible during the time of the crime.

LE clearly states in the PC Affadavit their belief that RA was committing the crime during the time he claims he was sitting on the bench.
JMO.

The times 1330 to 1530 were only mentioned in the '17 CO notes, and not repeated in the '22 interview. If the 1330 time is the more solid of the times, either being based on film of (similar) car passing by Store camera plus encounter with 3 girls at Freedom Bridge, the 1530 becomes more critical. What RA states in '22 per the PCA, which was walking from Freedom Bridge to High Bridge, going out to platform #1 only, then sitting at a bench (would have to have been returning off-bridge), then returning to car does not seem like it would've taken until 1530, maybe more like 1440-1450 if we assume 10-15 minutes on platform #1 and another 10-15 minutes sitting at bench.

If MOO RA back in '17 just said to CO "I got there at 1:30 and probably spent a couple hours or so, but didn't see anybody", it's reasonable that CO recorded "until 3:30". However if RA later recalled that he overestimated and it probably wasn't really that late, or RA has an alibi or evidence that he truly was gone from the area well before 3:30, that wouldn't reconcile with muddy/bloody guy exiting at 3:57 which puts LE in a quandary. If in fact he is muddy/bloody guy, that guy wouldn't have reached RA's offsite car until safely past 4:00 JMO which leaves a big hole to fill time-wise in RA's account, especially as to why searchers or other witnesses don't recall anyone resembling RA on the trails nearly that late.

 

[Betty P]

Probably a dumb idea, but is it possible that the person who saw him in all black is colorblind? If s/he couldn't see blues, they may only show up as dark or light.

Or they just could focus their attention enough to remember. Eyewitness testimony is often wrong, though some is still useful.

 

[Snow_In _June]

Investigators spoke with WITNESS 4 who advised she was on the trails on February 13th, 2017.
Video from the Hoosier Harvestore captured a vehicle travelling eastbound at 1:46 p.m. toward the entrance across from the Mears farm.
WITNESS 4 advised she saw 4 juvenile females walking on the bridge over Old State Road 25 as she was driving underneath on her way to park.
WITNESS 4 advised there were no other cars parked across from the Mears farm when she parked.
WITNESS 4 advised she walked to the Monon High Bridge and observed a male matching the one from Victim 2's video. She described the male she saw as a white male, wearing blue jeans and a blue jean jacket.
WITNESS 4 advised he was standing on the first platform of the Monon High Bridge, approximately 50 feet from her.
WITNESS 4 advised she turned around at the bridge and continued her walk.
WITNESS 4 advised approximately halfway between the bridge and the parking area across from Mears farm, she passed two girls walking toward Monon High Bridge. She advised she believed the girls were Victim 1 and Victim 2.
WITNESS 4 advised she finished her walk and saw no other adults other than the male on the bridge. Her vehicle is seen on Hoosier Harvestore video at 2:14p.m.leaving westbound from the trails.

These are my observations with reference to this part of the PCA

1. Witness 4 advises she saw 4 juvenile females walking on the old bridge, not 3
2. Witness 4 advises no other cars were parked when S/he arrived and parked
3. It takes approximately 2 mins to drive from under the old bridge to the Mears Parking lot (Google Maps)
4. The Hoosier Harvestore Camera picked Him/Her up at 1:46
5. Witness 4 advises H/She walked as far as the High Bridge and saw a man on the first Platform of MHB Turned around and went back the way H/She came.
6. Witness 4 advises H/She saw the Victims heading towards the high bridge approximately halfway between the Mears parking lot and the High Bridge.
7. Witness 4 was captured on Hoosier Harvestore video leaving the area at 2:14
8. Witness 4 between being captured on camera appeared to be in the area for a total 28 minutes which included arriving, parking, walking the trail turning around returning to a car un-parking and going back from where they came.
9. Witness 4 advises H/She saw no other Adults in the area other than the man on the bridge during her visit.

The witness must have been a few minutes ahead of the victims on the trail to be able to see them whilst on the way back to His/Her car.

Not unless the Victims went in search of friends having been dropped off by a family member at 1:38 and turned right towards Freedom Bridge in the first instance. and just made their way back along the trails having missed their possible friends who had by then left the trails. Then went towards and across MHB to pass the time before they were due to be picked up.

However hard I try it does not answer why the family member's car was not observed by Witness 4 This is my last ditch attempt at the rationale and I do think it is possible If the family member's phone rang whilst driving and she parked/pulled over at a different spot a few yards up the road to take the call. Chatted and then was seen at 1:49 on the Camera which would be the right thing to do. The camera picked her up after dropping off the girls and leaving the area. After she had pulled over chatted to whoever called then after that call she made her way to her destination.

To top it all my next question would be

• Where TF did the guy on the first platform disappear to
• Whilst A&L was walking towards him and the HB
• Witness 4 was walking away from him

I suppose the interesting thing we have learned is MHB has WiFi or Data Signal connectivity

• Not only do we have Libby uploading to Snapchat
• Now we have RA tracking the stock market!

I would also like to know if one of the Juvenile's observations of the guy all dressed in black with their face covered was in line with the description of the lurker looking through the window episode a week later.

I am so sorry I sit on the proverbial fence and keep changing my mind because something somewhere is not quite making sense or adding up

Whilst I am at it

The friggin bullet

Am I right or wrong? If you find a bullet at a crime scene close to a victim, wouldn't one of the first things you do be ballistics? If you then found out it was from XYZ type of weapon wouldn’t you cross reference with all legally registered owners of said type of weapon?

It is known RA owned such a weapon since 2001. If that fact is known in October 2022 why wasn't it known in 2017 when they picked the bullet up?

I am on the side of Justice for Libby & Abby. I sit on a proverbial fence and constantly slip from one side to the other. With POI motive etc. I want the right person/s caught put behind bars and pay penalties for the right reasons.

Please be kind to each other and respect each other's thoughts
Seasons Greetings to all
May 2023 bring the right answers to Libby & Abby's Families

SIJ x

 

[Betty P]

The times 1330 to 1530 were only mentioned in the '17 CO notes, and not repeated in the '22 interview. If the 1330 time is the more solid of the times, either being based on film of (similar) car passing by Store camera plus encounter with 3 girls at Freedom Bridge, the 1530 becomes more critical. What RA states in '22 per the PCA, which was walking from Freedom Bridge to High Bridge, going out to platform #1 only, then sitting at a bench (would have to have been returning off-bridge), then returning to car does not seem like it would've taken until 1530, maybe more like 1440-1450 if we assume 10-15 minutes on platform #1 and another 10-15 minutes sitting at bench.

If MOO RA back in '17 just said to CO "I got there at 1:30 and probably spent a couple hours or so, but didn't see anybody", it's reasonable that CO recorded "until 3:30". However if RA later recalled that he overestimated and it probably wasn't really that late, or RA has an alibi or evidence that he truly was gone from the area well before 3:30, that wouldn't reconcile with muddy/bloody guy exiting at 3:57 which puts LE in a quandary. If in fact he is muddy/bloody guy, that guy wouldn't have reached RA's offsite car until safely past 4:00 JMO which leaves a big hole to fill time-wise in RA's account, especially as to why searchers or other witnesses don't recall anyone resembling RA on the trails nearly that late.

IIRC, it was always assumed that the killer took a different route to his car to avoid being seen by people on the trail. But a witness did see him in bloody, muddy clothes on the Freedom Bridge, that's probably the best estimate, time wise.

 

[pepper 34]

You could be right about the phone not being heard, because here it says K was standing on the road below the bridge calling L's phone, could hear ringing on her end, but not L's phone ringing in that area. I'm not sure how far away you could hear a phone ringing, but maybe it was on silent or vibrate. L knew her dad would be calling, though, so it had to be in vibrate, at least, imo. For some reason, I thought it went dead a lot sooner than what this source says.

https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline

What's creepy about it all is that muddy and bloody guy was seen around 3:57. That's around the time DG was headed back to his car and the rest of the family had been calling for a half hour, so for those 30 minutes, the killer was in the woods or near the road at the same time DG was on the trails, with L's phone ringing/vibrating that whole time. For all we know, they were still alive when he pulled into that lot (but maybe not). Because of the timing, and regardless of the phone, I still wonder if L didn't tell him her dad would be coming soon, as a means to try to get him to leave them alone. It makes me sick.

That is the sort of thing that, as a parent, would haunt me for the rest of my life. That I was right there, so close when my child needed me the most and yet I couldn't help because I didn't know. This is why life without parole can never make up for this sort of agony that families go through. For those people who have hearts... that's the kind of thing that breaks them. Whoever BG is, there's nothing but a hole where a heart should be.

 

[layer]

The whole thing with cycling scratches acting as gun fingerprints was news to me until the PCA came out, so I don't know how that's going to play.

Doesn't play at all with me, and I think the prosecution would be wise to never even mention it.
He has a gun in this caliber - check.
This caliber bullet was found there - check.
And leave it at that.
Also, 40 caliber handguns are hardly rare, at one point maybe 75% of LE and all FBI agents used that caliber. I have several guns in that caliber myself.

There is a fairly solid circumstantial case, but I can't say there is enough to surpass the requirement for beyond a reasonable doubt because we have only heard the prosecution's side so far.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Am I right or wrong? If you find a bullet at a crime scene close to a victim, wouldn't one of the first things you do be ballistics? If you then found out it was from XYZ type of weapon wouldn’t you cross reference with all legally registered owners of said type of weapon?

It is known RA owned such a weapon since 2001. If that fact is known in October 2022 why wasn't it known in 2017 when they picked the bullet up?

RSBM
An unspent round was found, not a bullet. They didn’t know what gun it was from until they had RAs gun to compare it to, they knew it was a .40 round but not that it was from a SigP226 until they could compare the unspent round from RAs firearm. Hope that helps.

 

[Snow_In _June]

RSBM
An unspent round was found, not a bullet. They didn’t know what gun it was from until they had RAs gun to compare it to, they knew it was a .40 round but not that it was from a SigP226 until they could compare the unspent round from RAs firearm. Hope that helps.

deleted by me off to learn the difference. many thanks

 

[layer]

Am I right or wrong? If you find a bullet at a crime scene close to a victim, wouldn't one of the first things you do be ballistics? If you then found out it was from XYZ type of weapon wouldn’t you cross reference with all legally registered owners of said type of weapon?

Ballistics is related to firing and fired rounds - the fired bullet and the spent casing. There are no ballistics to be performed on a round that has never been fired. And there are no legally registered owners in Indiana, they don't have gun registration.

I am on the side of Justice for Libby & Abby. I sit on a proverbial fence and constantly slip from one side to the other. With POI motive etc. I want the right person/s caught put behind bars and pay penalties for the right reasons.

Right there with you!

 

[pepper 34]

RSBM for focus

Thinking to what provided PC for the search warrant, I suspect the combination of cell tower evidence plus the witness evidence might have led to a train wreck police interview that established probable cause for a search.

As discussed, the big problem in the PCA is that the bridge is a bottle neck, and by admitting to seeing the 3 girls, RA puts himself on the bridge before the victims got there (testimony of Trail Woman). So somehow he needs to get back off the bridge before they arrive.

So there could well be a huge issue if his phone is still in the area after 3pm, or even as late as 4

I wonder if he turned it off?

His stock ticker claim seems to accept his phone was on before 2pm, so we have to anticipate LE have that from the tower(s). RA himself seems to anticipate that as well.

I do wonder why none of this is in the PCA - perhaps the analysis simply isn't well developed yet?

We don't know what's on page 8 though. It could be all official signatures as someone suggested but maybe a page 9 has the signatures and isn't being counted because it is "just" signatures... (?)

 

[layer]

Thanks . what is the difference between un spent round and an unspent bullet?
Livin and learning here

SIJ

Good question!
They are the same. If you go into Walmart and go to the ammo department, take a look at a bullet. That is an unspent round. If you take that bullet and shoot it, that is a spent round. There are a lot of forensics that can be performed on a spent round. The projectile can be matched to the barrel that it came out of. The spent casing can be matched to the chamber from which it was fired. The ejector and extractor marks can be compared, and the indentation made by the firing pin on the primer can be matched.

ETA: Pictures

Spent casing:

Unspent round:

 

[Boxer]

Probably a dumb idea, but is it possible that the person who saw him in all black is colorblind? If s/he couldn't see blues, they may only show up as dark or light.

MOO the area on the trail they saw him has dense canopy - I am thinking one witness glanced and only saw him in shadow and the other two saw him with a bit of light to show the color of his clothes.

 

[Justice101]

Circumstantial evidence:
1) Cycling marks on unspent bullet
2) Vague video of RA's car and eye witness testimony on the vehicle parked at CPS.
3) Voice analysis of RA versus BG.


Real and (Potential) evidence when time to present in court:
1) Eyewitness description of clothing and time on trail by 3 juveniles.
2) Evidence gleamed from search at RA's house (blood in seat of car, blood on clothing, blood in drain in bathtub if he presoaked clothes there, memento from killing like a ring or necklace, DNA of victims, digital photos possibly erased but not really erased on phone, blood in nooks and crannies of boots, etc.
3) RA's own admission of being on the trail and at bridge at or around time of abduction/killing.
4) Eyewitness description of woman who went to bridge and back who saw both RA and Libby and Abby.
5) RA's timecard swipe in and/or wipe out to show he was not at work at those times.
6) Video showing RA walking toward victims showing clothing that matched descriptions of 4 people on the trails within an hour of the girl's abduction/murder.
7) Other real evidence from search of his residence that we don't even know about.
8) Partial finger print on unspent casing.
9) Touch DNA on victims or trees/sticks etc. (Since girls were found within 24 hours, touch DNA should be there on SOMETHING).

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Ballistics is related to firing and fired rounds - the fired bullet and the spent casing. There are no ballistics to be performed on a round that has never been fired.

I can't tell if you mean the forensics ballistics testing, which is not limited to fired rounds only. But "ballistics" certainly includes the examination of a bullet that was in a magazine and then chambered and ejected from a firearm and the resulting markings on the bullet.