Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

[TL4S]

New episode of MS is really interesting.

The Delphi Murders: A Defense Perspective on the Bullet

 

[ACG2x]

Interested to see if the defense will try to concoct a story about how the Sig Sauer bullet got next to the girls or will bring in their own 'experts' who will testify of course that there's no way to tell that bullet was ever in that gun. There's really two different paths you can follow here.

First would be an innocent explanation that hey, RA frequented the trails and woods and often carried his gun on him. He kept it unloaded because he was only going to use it just in case. In Indiana with a firearm permit, that's his right. The bullet fell out at some point and through weather, elements, etc. got kicked around the ground and happened to be next to the girls bodies after someone else committed the murders.

Second is ballistics experts who would testify that whatever methods LE used are junk science, not reliable, no way to tell, etc.

I think the bullet will end up being extremely important to the prosecution here because right now it's the only known piece of physical evidence that ties RA to the murder scene. So you have to either explain that away by saying it was happenstance and a lot of people walked those trails and by that creek or you have to try to distance your client from it and say that's not from my gun. I highly suspect they'll opt for the second one.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Will someone please be so kind as to explain to me why/how Disney was involved in the beginning?
I didn’t follow the case until 2019 and I cannot remember the reason(s) why.

IATYSM.

Partial transcript from the "Dr. Phil Show - The Indiana Train Track Murders":

-Dr. Phil: Have they been able to high-res this picture and-and get a better image of the face and all than-than what we have here?
-Anna Williams: This is as good as it gets. When I say that they've said, the FBI said: "We've had a lot of people working... NASA, Disney, you name it, we worked on it. We've tried. This is the best we can do." Because everybody assumes that we can and, hmm--
-Dr. Phil: Okay. [conversation moves on to the sketch]

 

[Boxer]

Interested to see if the defense will try to concoct a story about how the Sig Sauer bullet got next to the girls or will bring in their own 'experts' who will testify of course that there's no way to tell that bullet was ever in that gun. There's really two different paths you can follow here.

First would be an innocent explanation that hey, RA frequented the trails and woods and often carried his gun on him. He kept it unloaded because he was only going to use it just in case. In Indiana with a firearm permit, that's his right. The bullet fell out at some point and through weather, elements, etc. got kicked around the ground and happened to be next to the girls bodies after someone else committed the murders.

Second is ballistics experts who would testify that whatever methods LE used are junk science, not reliable, no way to tell, etc.

I think the bullet will end up being extremely important to the prosecution here because right now it's the only known piece of physical evidence that ties RA to the murder scene. So you have to either explain that away by saying it was happenstance and a lot of people walked those trails and by that creek or you have to try to distance your client from it and say that's not from my gun. I highly suspect they'll opt for the second one.

MOO he only needs to be tied to “DTH” that’s the felony that ends in murder, felony murder.
That said, the bullet will be conclusive in MOO. Brass is soft and between two impressions, the cycling marks on the bullet case will be unique and shown to match other bullets cycled through RAs sig sauer.

 

[Le Singe]

New episode of MS is really interesting.

The Delphi Murders: A Defense Perspective on the Bullet

It was! i hope that he is right that they used the bullet for the PCA to not have to make other evidence public. Seems like there is room for the defense to work on the bullet. i agree with him that if their case is hinging on just the bullet evidence and the stuff in the PCA they are in trouble. HOWEVER he, and almost every other expert I've heard opine, say they feel sure LE and the State have way more evidence and they just used bullet to get the PCA to not show other stuff. (There is actually a lot of not bullet related stuff that he makes really interesting commentary on also but i might discuss in a separate post).

 

[kkdj]

Might the 'fanny pack' actually be a visible portion of a sweatshirt, his jacket hiked up so his hand can be in the belly pocket, weapon in hand, hidden but easily accessible? And the outline above that, a holster?

Guessing he walked with his head down to hide his beard.

JMO

I think he was looking at the wooden planks because they were uneven and old.

 

[Bergmann]

I think the bullet will end up being extremely important to the prosecution here because right now it's the only known piece of physical evidence that ties RA to the murder scene

'If' that's all that the prosecution actually have by way of physical evidence then they are going to have a real uphill battle to land that firmly and resist defense counsel's various opportunities for successful rebuttal and striking of evidence.

The risk is that the trial outcome revolves around a technical debate/ shoot -out (pun intended!) between prosecution and defense's relevant experts, and who can come across as more compelling to the jury.

I really hope in the spirit of reaching a robust conviction or acquittal either way, that there is definitive evidence which is reliable, rather than open to interpretation, challenge, and potential appeal etc.

 

[Le Singe]

Exactly my sentiments. In a lineup, the witness is shown several people and is asked to pick out the person (s)he saw. What I fear happened here is that LE showed the girls a picture of BG and said, "Is this who you saw?" Apples and oranges.

With that in mind, if the girls were swayed by the video from Libby's phone, who is to say that the person with the recollection of the man dressed in all black isn't correct? I know that RA said that he saw the 3 girls. I can just see a 100 different ways that the information contained in the PCA works against the prosecution. Without significantly more evidence, which LE may have, I fear what the trial may become.

ETA - I think the most damning testimony is RA's own version of events, especially when combined with Libby's video.

Seems like once LE had the name of RA in summer 2022 they should have gone back and shown photo line ups to these people. Then again it's been 6 years a he was covering his face etc. I'd almost expect them to not be able to pick him out of a line-up.

 

[Le Singe]

MS podcast confirmed one other thing.

The bail hearing is run with the preliminary hearing. That makes sense as they will both consider the strength of the case. That seems to be happening so late due to scheduling issues, but I will say the defence appears in no great hurry. Presumably they understand being successful at the bail hearing will require a lot of work.

I think the delay is another thing that suggest that the defense is aware there is significant not yet publicly released evidence against RA. If all the prosecution have is whats in the the PCA I would assume they would want the hearing immediately (not that he would get bail but he might at least have a slim win the lottery type chance).

I suspect IMO JMO that one reason for playing things really close to the vest is they feel they have lots of evidence, they think this will never go to trial b/c they want to spear the families a trial so they want to be as vanilla as possible with what is made public out of respect for the families thinking a plea will made most of the details never have to come out. (the other alternative is they are flying totally blind and hoped he would just confess or that they would find a bunch of stuff after the arrest lol).

 

[CSIDreamer]

While I realize being in your 40s isn't old, RA was on a mission in my way of thinking.

I would categorize teenagers as (overall) more daring, more nimble, more fearless.

If I so much as stepped one foot on that MHB I'd be crawling and screaming. Aside from being a stick in the mud, it looks terrifying to me.

He meandered out there to look at fish? Nah.

I'd like to know the actual age ranges of people who venture not just onto the bridge, but make it the whole way across. That study likely doesn't exist.

JMO

 

[kkdj]

Personally and moo is that some heads are going to roll with this one!
They had their guy very quickly and passed him over!
Maybe there's a logical reason? I hope so because I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this!
moo

 

[layer]

'If' that's all that the prosecution actually have by way of physical evidence then they are going to have a real uphill battle to land that firmly and resist defense counsel's various opportunities for successful rebuttal and striking of evidence.

The risk is that the trial outcome revolves around a technical debate/ shoot -out (pun intended!) between prosecution and defense's relevant experts, and who can come across as more compelling to the jury.

I really hope in the spirit of reaching a robust conviction or acquittal either way, that there is definitive evidence which is reliable, rather than open to interpretation, challenge, and potential appeal etc.

Agree, and I would challenge all the people that believe the unspent round is a significant piece of evidence to cite any case in which the toolmarks on an unspent round was even presented as significant evidence of guilt at trial. I have never seen one. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but see what you can dig up.

 

[layer]

If I so much as stepped one foot on that MHB I'd be crawling and screaming. Aside from being a stick in the mud, it looks terrifying to me.

Same!

 

[EOA]

Interested to see if the defense will try to concoct a story about how the Sig Sauer bullet got next to the girls

Yes RA concocting a story has been in the back of my mind too, since certain info is now available from the PCA, that he would craft something to fit the scenario presented. He might have to recount 1 or 2 things he said himself previously, but I would alert the Prosecution to be ready to counter an RA tale like this: (MOO)

JMO---(hadn't been fully transparent before but...) was alone on bridge sometime after 3:00, twice heard faint scream/high-pitched whimper, thought possibly animal caught in thicket but sounded somewhat human and was drawn to it. had never been down hill before, but crawled down hill to see if someone/something was in distress. perhaps made noise as he neared the bottom prompting the sound of distant running footsteps. coming into the clear at bottom saw man in black or blue on other side of creek disappearing over ridge toward the white house at top. saw glimpse of what looked like a mannequin on other side of creek where footsteps seemed to originate, crossed creek to investigate, got closer and realized was a young girl still with color in face but not responsive. next noticed blood and got scared tying together the man in blue or black running from scene must've killed her. pulled [his] gun from holster and looked around - then noticed a second girl not too far from first in same condition. got really scared assuming 2 assailants for 2 victims and that someone else who didn't yet run away may still be lurking nearby watching. racked his slide to let that possible person know he had a firearm and became ready to shoot. (implying that's when unspent round discharged). was just starting to call 911 when thought again heard footsteps or voices approaching in far distance, decided he better get out of there quick so as not to look guilty, and ran a different direction than sounds were heard. got back to car, drove away, and again started to call 911, but realized he didn't know how to direct to the exact CS location or didn't know if perhaps he had unknowingly left prints or evidence of himself at the CS. re-analyzed that he would become suspect #1 if he called in all details so would just wait and see what happened - surely someone would miss the girls and come looking, police would eventually get involved, and in the event someone he'd seen reported him, he should proactively volunteer his presence in the general area at a similar time but claim little else knowledge and let the investigation play out assuming LE would have other better evidence to determine the real guilty parties than the info he could offer....

again all my own theory of what could be a concocted Accused/Defense story that Prosecution should be ready for, and expectedly they are, or will be, ready for.

Now of course RA will have to counter his own PCA Statement that he'd never been on "that property where the unspent round was found" - likely some other concocted type of misunderstanding of exactly which part of property LE was referring to. And RA would have to accept guilt to a lesser charge of his not reporting everything he knew previously. RA could also say in this concoction he might've been muddy and wet from crossing the creek and might've in hindsight left footprints, but was not bloody and there was no reason in his mind at the time to consider disposing of his clothes or gun.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Yes RA concocting a story has been in the back of my mind too, since certain info is now available from the PCA, that he would craft something to fit the scenario presented. He might have to recount 1 or 2 things he said himself previously, but I would alert the Prosecution to be ready to counter an RA tale like this: (MOO)

JMO---(hadn't been fully transparent before but...) was alone on bridge sometime after 3:00, twice heard faint scream/high-pitched whimper, thought possibly animal caught in thicket but sounded somewhat human and was drawn to it. had never been down hill before, but crawled down hill to see if someone/something was in distress. perhaps made noise as he neared the bottom prompting the sound of distant running footsteps. coming into the clear at bottom saw man in black or blue on other side of creek disappearing over ridge toward the white house at top. saw glimpse of what looked like a mannequin on other side of creek where footsteps seemed to originate, crossed creek to investigate, got closer and realized was a young girl still with color in face but not responsive. next noticed blood and got scared tying together the man in blue or black running from scene must've killed her. pulled [his] gun from holster and looked around - then noticed a second girl not too far from first in same condition. got really scared assuming 2 assailants for 2 victims and that someone else who didn't yet run away may still be lurking nearby watching. racked his slide to let that possible person know he had a firearm and became ready to shoot. (implying that's when unspent round discharged). was just starting to call 911 when thought again heard footsteps or voices approaching in far distance, decided he better get out of there quick so as not to look guilty, and ran a different direction than sounds were heard. got back to car, drove away, and again started to call 911, but realized he didn't know how to direct to the exact CS location or didn't know if perhaps he had unknowingly left prints or evidence of himself at the CS. re-analyzed that he would become suspect #1 if he called in all details so would just wait and see what happened - surely someone would miss the girls and come looking, police would eventually get involved, and in the event someone he'd seen reported him, he should proactively volunteer his presence in the general area at a similar time but claim little else knowledge and let the investigation play out assuming LE would have other better evidence to determine the real guilty parties than the info he could offer....

again all my own theory of what could be a concocted Accused/Defense story that Prosecution should be ready for, and expectedly they are, or will be, ready for.

Now of course RA will have to counter his own PCA Statement that he'd never been on "that property where the unspent round was found" - likely some other concocted type of misunderstanding of exactly which part of property LE was referring to. And RA would have to accept guilt to a lesser charge of his not reporting everything he knew previously. RA could also say in this concoction he might've been muddy and wet from crossing the creek and might've in hindsight left footprints, but was not bloody and there was no reason in his mind at the time to consider disposing of his clothes or gun.

You're kind of scaring me.

 

[WildHuncher]

Yes RA concocting a story has been in the back of my mind too, since certain info is now available from the PCA, that he would craft something to fit the scenario presented. He might have to recount 1 or 2 things he said himself previously, but I would alert the Prosecution to be ready to counter an RA tale like this: (MOO)

JMO---(hadn't been fully transparent before but...) was alone on bridge sometime after 3:00, twice heard faint scream/high-pitched whimper, thought possibly animal caught in thicket but sounded somewhat human and was drawn to it. had never been down hill before, but crawled down hill to see if someone/something was in distress. perhaps made noise as he neared the bottom prompting the sound of distant running footsteps. coming into the clear at bottom saw man in black or blue on other side of creek disappearing over ridge toward the white house at top. saw glimpse of what looked like a mannequin on other side of creek where footsteps seemed to originate, crossed creek to investigate, got closer and realized was a young girl still with color in face but not responsive. next noticed blood and got scared tying together the man in blue or black running from scene must've killed her. pulled [his] gun from holster and looked around - then noticed a second girl not too far from first in same condition. got really scared assuming 2 assailants for 2 victims and that someone else who didn't yet run away may still be lurking nearby watching. racked his slide to let that possible person know he had a firearm and became ready to shoot. (implying that's when unspent round discharged). was just starting to call 911 when thought again heard footsteps or voices approaching in far distance, decided he better get out of there quick so as not to look guilty, and ran a different direction than sounds were heard. got back to car, drove away, and again started to call 911, but realized he didn't know how to direct to the exact CS location or didn't know if perhaps he had unknowingly left prints or evidence of himself at the CS. re-analyzed that he would become suspect #1 if he called in all details so would just wait and see what happened - surely someone would miss the girls and come looking, police would eventually get involved, and in the event someone he'd seen reported him, he should proactively volunteer his presence in the general area at a similar time but claim little else knowledge and let the investigation play out assuming LE would have other better evidence to determine the real guilty parties than the info he could offer....

again all my own theory of what could be a concocted Accused/Defense story that Prosecution should be ready for, and expectedly they are, or will be, ready for.

Now of course RA will have to counter his own PCA Statement that he'd never been on "that property where the unspent round was found" - likely some other concocted type of misunderstanding of exactly which part of property LE was referring to. And RA would have to accept guilt to a lesser charge of his not reporting everything he knew previously. RA could also say in this concoction he might've been muddy and wet from crossing the creek and might've in hindsight left footprints, but was not bloody and there was no reason in his mind at the time to consider disposing of his clothes or gun.

If I'm on that jury, you're dead.

 

[layer]

JMO---(hadn't been fully transparent before but...) was alone on bridge sometime after 3:00, twice heard faint scream/high-pitched whimper, thought possibly animal caught in thicket but sounded somewhat human and was drawn to it. had never been down hill before, but crawled down hill to see if someone/something was in distress.

I thought he asserted that he never crossed the bridge?

 

[mrjitty]

The prosecution are not claiming he did, only that they were murdered during a kidnapping by RA.

The prosecution does say that BG (i.e RA) abducted the girls and did the murders

 

[electricuncalm]

It was! i hope that he is right that they used the bullet for the PCA to not have to make other evidence public. Seems like there is room for the defense to work on the bullet. i agree with him that if their case is hinging on just the bullet evidence and the stuff in the PCA they are in trouble. HOWEVER he, and almost every other expert I've heard opine, say they feel sure LE and the State have way more evidence and they just used bullet to get the PCA to not show other stuff. (There is actually a lot of not bullet related stuff that he makes really interesting commentary on also but i might discuss in a separate post).

I’ve been saying that about the bullet since the day the pca was unsealed. I think it’s their throwaway - it’s fine to show what they discarded, because no one right now knows what cards they still hold. They got the pc for the arrest. and now there’s a gag order… just in time for discovery. (Because despite what ras attorneys said, I think they’d absolutely be trying this case in the media. The first thing they did after saying they don’t want to try this in the media was to release a ginormous press release that looks like carroll county high school made it…)

I firmly believe that the state is very well prepared and would not have arrested someone and brought charges without being able to back it up. They’ve been saying for years they only needed one piece - they got it.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

I’ve been saying that about the bullet since the day the pca was unsealed. I think it’s their throwaway - it’s fine to show what they discarded, because no one right now knows what cards they still hold. They got the pc for the arrest. and now there’s a gag order… just in time for discovery. (Because despite what ras attorneys said, I think they’d absolutely be trying this case in the media. The first thing they did after saying they don’t want to try this in the media was to release a ginormous press release that looks like carroll county high school made it…)

I firmly believe that the state is very well prepared and would not have arrested someone and brought charges without being able to back it up. They’ve been saying for years they only needed one piece - they got it.

I'm still very curious about what set the bar for the search of RA's house. Was enough said in the 2022 interview to make that happen? Was the bullet sufficient? We have a bullet, he owns the correct caliber (and maybe model) firearm, etc., plus admits to being there and wearing clothing matching BG. They HAD to have more than that right, some sort of strong belief they would find something in that house. And it seems like maybe they did. Beyond the "matching firearm."