Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[Marzipan]

One additional point. It’s not a tip is an official initial interview in double murder by a sworn law enforcement officer.

COs are full law enforcement officers, they go to he same ILEA academy with sheriff deputies and police officer, with extra detective training. They are not park rangers.
MOO this conservation officer and his or her supervisor had the duty to see their interview report through.

I know that this is accurate but can you share a link anyway, please? When I searched on COs in Indiana I found some jurisdiction and county websites, aligning on the fact they are law enforcers and detectives, but the closest I found about criminal investigation work was how to report a poacher or hunting violation. And since they are under the DNR, I’m having trouble seeing them much more as park rangers than people who get involved in murders.

Now, as an aside, my husband and I were once at Whitewater State Park in southern Minnesota when everyone was evacuated down from the trails because a prison escapee was up in the bluffs (we had seen him up there but didn’t know he was a criminal yet!) As we came down, there were all kinds of responders herding people out, and if memory serves, they were mostly the park rangers. Of course, this is an irrelevant OT story I’m telling for the memory, but I’d think anywhere, whether park police are part of LE or DNR or both, they serve and protect in any situation they are called to do so.

 

[O.Incandenza]

RA's defense team is not going to claim anybody planted the bullet; they're going to dispute the claim that it's his bullet—period—in my opinion. Experts challenge ballistics evidence all the time, and there is not nearly the same body of research behind this kind of identification as there is behind ballistics matches with bullets that have actually been fired.

All the defense attorneys are going to try to do is create doubt. They don't have to prove that RA is innocent.

I think that it will come down to what evidence prosecutors have that has not been made public yet.

I've read that RA kept the jacket that he allegedly wore that day. If that's true, then investigators will rip that jacket to shreds looking for blood evidence containing either Abby or Libby's DNA. If they find any, it's game over for RA: he'll be convicted, sentenced to death, and executed, in my opinion.

If the crime scene was a bloody as we've been led to believe, then that DNA from one of the victims should be in the jacket. If there is none, then that will give the defense team another opportunity to try to create doubt, in my opinion.

Only thing I'd add to this is that the very first thing they're going to try to do is to contest the search warrant that was issued for RA's house. If they can get that invalidated, then the gun is suppressed and so is anything else they found in the search. I am curious about the PCA for that warrant, since it predated the interview where RA more or less described himself as BG.

If the warrant is upheld, then they'll contest the tool mark evidence. Hopefully the warrant was sound and they found other evidence in the search that conclusively ties RA to the crime.

 

[Prime8]

One additional point. It’s not a tip is an official initial interview in double murder by a sworn law enforcement officer.

Which is SUPER interesting because they call the "interview" a "tip" twice in the PCA: "Investigators reviewing prior tips encountered a tip narrative from an officer who interviewed Richard M. Allen in 2017. That narrative stated:..." So the question remains, was it a tip or an official interview? There is phone information and a question at the end for followup, which feels official. But then why keep calling it a tip?

 

[dm799]

Which is SUPER interesting because they call the "interview" a "tip" twice in the PCA: "Investigators reviewing prior tips encountered a tip narrative from an officer who interviewed Richard M. Allen in 2017. That narrative stated:..." So the question remains, was it a tip or an official interviews? There is phone information and a question at the end for followup, which feels official. But then why keep calling it a tip?

Optics, in my opinion.

 

[Prime8]

Optics, in my opinion.

But to what end? If the goal was to make themselves look better, like it was "just a tip" among thousands we had, they failed because it still states it was taken by an officer and includes official looking information.

 

[mrjitty]

Only thing I'd add to this is that the very first thing they're going to try to do is to contest the search warrant that was issued for RA's house. If they can get that invalidated, then the gun is suppressed and so is anything else they found in the search. I am curious about the PCA for that warrant, since it predated the interview where RA more or less described himself as BG.

If the warrant is upheld, then they'll contest the tool mark evidence. Hopefully the warrant was sound and they found other evidence in the search that conclusively ties RA to the crime.

Would love to know what that warrant was based on - maybe the cellular?

 

[mrjitty]

Which is SUPER interesting because they call the "interview" a "tip" twice in the PCA: "Investigators reviewing prior tips encountered a tip narrative from an officer who interviewed Richard M. Allen in 2017. That narrative stated:..." So the question remains, was it a tip or an official interview? There is phone information and a question at the end for followup, which feels official. But then why keep calling it a tip?

The defence appear to describe it as an informal discussion more than as an interview - one imagines this will be key to their strategy

 

[dm799]

But to what end? If the goal was to make themselves look better, like it was "just a tip" among thousands we had, they failed because it still states it was taken by an officer and includes official looking information.

Yeah I would say it still looks terrible, but saying they 'encountered a tip narrative' perhaps looks marginally less terrible than saying we interviewed him, then decided to wait 5 years before doing the logical follow up work.

Awful from LE whichever way you spin it.

And the nature of the original 'interview' just seems so contradictory which I suppose is pretty standard for this case. On the one hand it's reported to have happened outside a grocery store suggesting something very informal, yet on the other hand there is a somewhat comprehensive statement taken and technical cell phone information obtained. Just very strange.

All just my opinion.

 

[AC4RD]

But to what end? If the goal was to make themselves look better, like it was "just a tip" among thousands we had, they failed because it still states it was taken by an officer and includes official looking information.

Just my own guess, but possibly "tips" come from outside (including from the game-warden person) and "interviews" are done by lawn-forcement people who are actually part of the formal investigation. So the CO *is* LE by Indiana guidelines, but he wasn't part of the active investigation, so it talking to RA was informal on the CO's part, and it was a "tip" from the CO rather than part of the formal LE investigation.

Of course, if that's true, it doesn't really change your own "to look better" suggestion, does it? ;-) But it does make the whole situation sound a little less like "The Three Stooges Turn Detectives," doesn't it?

 

[Boxer]

I know that this is accurate but can you share a link anyway, please? When I searched on COs in Indiana I found some jurisdiction and county websites, aligning on the fact they are law enforcers and detectives, but the closest I found about criminal investigation work was how to report a poacher or hunting violation. And since they are under the DNR, I’m having trouble seeing them much more as park rangers than people who get involved in murders.

Now, as an aside, my husband and I were once at Whitewater State Park in southern Minnesota when everyone was evacuated down from the trails because a prison escapee was up in the bluffs (we had seen him up there but didn’t know he was a criminal yet!) As we came down, there were all kinds of responders herding people out, and if memory serves, they were mostly the park rangers. Of course, this is an irrelevant OT story I’m telling for the memory, but I’d think anywhere, whether park police are part of LE or DNR or both, they serve and protect in any situation they are called to do so.

Here is a site explaining how to prepare to get the job, and a photo of a class at the academy.

Another site explains the training they receive at the ILEA academy. I will try to find.

 

[cbeagle]

Just my own guess, but possibly "tips" come from outside (including from the game-warden person) and "interviews" are done by lawn-forcement people who are actually part of the formal investigation.

Surely a "game-warden person" would be better suited for " lawn-forcement" ?

(great typo/auto-correct!)

 

[Trebor5591]

What is "DNR?"

Department of Natural Resources

 

[Trebor5591]

I really don’t think he sounds like BG saying “Guys, down the hill”.

Kathy Allen, Richard Allen’s Wife: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

Nor do I, IMO

 

[Prime8]

Just my own guess, but possibly "tips" come from outside (including from the game-warden person) and "interviews" are done by lawn-forcement people who are actually part of the formal investigation. So the CO *is* LE by Indiana guidelines, but he wasn't part of the active investigation, so it talking to RA was informal on the CO's part, and it was a "tip" from the CO rather than part of the formal LE investigation.

Of course, if that's true, it doesn't really change your own "to look better" suggestion, does it? ;-) But it does make the whole situation sound a little less like "The Three Stooges Turn Detectives," doesn't it?

That's a good point, I suppose it could be the technicality of the word.

I don't know if anyone is ever going to convince me that this mistake leaves them looking anything less than incompetent. Mistakes happen but this mistake continued for almost 6 years without anyone noticing, which feels a little Stoogey.

 

[Trebor5591]

The new motion is interesting, especially items 10 and 15. I am not surprised to see that the defense is asking for information related to a photo lineup. I really want to know if a single witness has IDed RA. Also, is #22 normal?

Do you have a link?

 

[Yemelyan]

Do you have a link?

An Indianapolis reporter has the full defense document here -- this is the only place I've seen the full document: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...sdzA3LHMdl&id=100044311365463&mibextid=Nif5oz

 

[Laughing]

One additional point. It’s not a tip is an official initial interview in double murder by a sworn law enforcement officer.

COs are full law enforcement officers, they go to he same ILEA academy with sheriff deputies and police officer, with extra detective training. They are not park rangers.
MOO this conservation officer and his or her supervisor had the duty to see their interview report through.

Not the OP, and this list is incomplete of course, but:

Become an Indiana Conservation Officer

Learn what it takes and how to become an Indiana Conservation Officer

www.in.gov

As the law enforcement division of the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, we concentrate on full time police work focused on community needs within natural resource laws and rules. As an officer, you will experience interesting challenges that vary from day to day. You will also have the opportunity to become actively involved in your local community and with many organizations.

bbm

And:

Twenty five new conservation officers graduate from training - WBIW

INDIANA – The DNR Division of Law Enforcement held graduation ceremonies today at the Indiana Government Center South in Indianapolis. Twenty-five new Indiana Conservation Officers...

www.wbiw.com

The new officers completed 6 weeks of basic training followed by a 15-week basic law enforcement academy. Upon completion of the academy, officers complete specialized training before doing 90 shifts of field training.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not the OP, and this list is incomplete of course, but:

Become an Indiana Conservation Officer

Learn what it takes and how to become an Indiana Conservation Officer

www.in.gov

As the law enforcement division of the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, we concentrate on full time police work focused on community needs within natural resource laws and rules. As an officer, you will experience interesting challenges that vary from day to day. You will also have the opportunity to become actively involved in your local community and with many organizations.

bbm

And:

Twenty five new conservation officers graduate from training - WBIW

INDIANA – The DNR Division of Law Enforcement held graduation ceremonies today at the Indiana Government Center South in Indianapolis. Twenty-five new Indiana Conservation Officers...

www.wbiw.com

The new officers completed 6 weeks of basic training followed by a 15-week basic law enforcement academy. Upon completion of the academy, officers complete specialized training before doing 90 shifts of field training.

Since the very first news conference, we know DNR wasn’t leading this homicide investigation, nor was DNR actively involved as a member of the task force. So I don’t know where this discussion regarding DNR is going but it seems to be leading down a rabbit hole. However it’s quite possible they did conduct the water search of Deer Creek that was released in the aerial footage from RTV6.

Delphi Homicide Investigation

www.in.gov

“The Delphi Police Department, the Carroll County Sheriff, the Indiana State Police, and the FBI are asking for your assistance in identifying the suspect in the double homicide of two teenage girls, Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn "Libby" German, 14, both from Delphi.”

 

[MistyWaters]

Which is SUPER interesting because they call the "interview" a "tip" twice in the PCA: "Investigators reviewing prior tips encountered a tip narrative from an officer who interviewed Richard M. Allen in 2017. That narrative stated:..." So the question remains, was it a tip or an official interview? There is phone information and a question at the end for followup, which feels official. But then why keep calling it a tip?

I think “tip narrative” relates directly to the information offered by RA that he was on the trails that day at the same time but didn’t see the girls. Who received the tip or how it was received isn’t really what’s most significant, it’s the information about what RA saw (or didn’t see) that LE would be most interested in. This is why I believe he talked to the CO when the girls were still considered missing. ”The tip” only becomes unusual if it’s viewed as a tip by the CO on RA but thats contrary to encountering “a tip narrative from an officer”.

Early on IIRC police officers from other police departments assisted in recording tips. Due to the vast number of tips received in general, the FBI offered up their Pyramid system. Regardless of the source of the tip, an officer interview with someone, or a tip taken by phone by email, because of the sheer volume only an automated system could cross-reference all that information. But the danger of reliance on generated data is it’s only as reliable as the input.

Right now we can only speculated why RA’s tip was overlooked for so long but it’s not out of this world to me that it was entered incorrectly at the time it was initially received. I recall earlier RA’s tip was mentioned to be “unfounded” and perhaps that was a just tick box checked in error, as opposed to the appropriate one like “urgent - follow up required”. If this is so, I’d be curious how many unfounded tips there were, falling somewhere between space aliens took them or they were sighted at a Walmart parking lot in California. But only this time did a review of all tips going back to the beginning include the category of “unfounded”. JMO

 

[Boxer]

I think “tip narrative” relates directly to the information offered by RA that he was on the trails that day at the same time but didn’t see the girls. Who received the tip or how it was received isn’t really what’s most significant, it’s the information about what RA saw (or didn’t see) that LE would be most interested in. This is why I believe he talked to the CO when the girls were still considered missing. ”The tip” only becomes unusual if it’s viewed as a tip by the CO on RA but thats contrary to encountering “a tip narrative from an officer”.

Early on IIRC police officers from other police departments assisted in recording tips. Due to the vast number of tips received in general, the FBI offered up their Pyramid system. Regardless of the source of the tip, an officer interview with someone, or a tip taken by phone by email, because of the sheer volume only an automated system could cross-reference all that information. But the danger of reliance on generated data is it’s only as reliable as the input.

Right now we can only speculated why RA’s tip was overlooked for so long but it’s not out of this world to me that it was entered incorrectly at the time it was initially received. I recall earlier RA’s tip was mentioned to be “unfounded” and perhaps that was a just tick box checked in error, as opposed to the appropriate one like “urgent - follow up required”. If this is so, I’d be curious how many unfounded tips there were, falling somewhere between space aliens took them or they were sighted at a Walmart parking lot in California. But only this time did a review of all tips going back to the beginning include the category of “unfounded”. JMO

All makes sense.

Still just as witness on the trail that 2/13/17 he should have risen to the top of every investigative checklist along with the 3 girls, FSG, the couple under the bridge and the lady who walked the trail between the bridges

It’s not clear when RA contacted the police about being on the trail. 2/14/2017 seems to be suggested and that would be the right time for him to call.The FBI took over the tip line on 2/23/2017.

Before the gag order the defense attorney says RA called police and agreed to meet a conservation officer in front of a grocery store.

MOO, after calling in and saying he was on the trail the afternoon of 2/13/17 meeting with anyone but the detectives is also odd from the start.