IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[Ravenmoon]

Lol.. Prosecution has not convinced me that they have the right man. So, at this moment in time, I'm considering his side of the story: he got there around noon, he walked out onto the platform to see the fish and left around 1:30.

If I was on the jury, I would not send him to prison for the rest of his life based on the mess of witness sightings and a note of some sort from the CO which gave the wrong name and a recording of the convo had not been found at the time of the memo.

I'm waiting for the trial to decide on his "confessions." I can't count the number of times I heard LE talk about holding info close to weed out false confessions; I want to be sure his is not one of them.

I'll be glad to change my mind when prosecution provides solid evidence. Our opinions don't agree but that's OK.
My opinion only based on the memorandum.

The memorandum prepared by the defense.

RA originally told the conservation officer ( I believe that is his title?) That he was there from 1:30 until 3:30.

When the police showed up at his door, he decided that he was there from noon until 1:30.

Aside from his terrible memory, both he and the group of girls that saw him say they passed each other. Not that they walked along side one another. The group of girls were walking towards Freedom Bridge, leaving the trail. IOW, he was arriving not leaving at that time.

BB, saw Libby and Abby. She also saw a man standing on the bridge platform number one. Richard Allen says that he was standing on that platform.

We also know that the girls arrived closer to 2 PM and not at 1:37 as we believed before.

There is nothing in the writing the defense prepared that would make me believe that anyone other than RA killed those poor girls.


JMO

 

[photographer4]

Bizarre crime scene. I think RA was online enough to see it and may have been a closet fan of the rituals... and then used that knowledge to fake the crime scene to send investigators down the wrong path;.

And if he did this, then he would certainly have good reason to fear retribution from the Odinists. Not a chance they were going to be pleased with being set up to look guilty in a double child murder!

 

[photographer4]

There was mentioned at one time that Libby might have been drug at one point by evidence of her wrists being bruised. If she had been knifed before Abby then Abby might of had to help the murderer drag Libby from a visible area down to where they were found. Also Abby's hair was up so no blood went to her hair. JMO

Was her hair still up when she was found?

 

[Charlot123]

MOO I am sure RA told them to Go Down the Hill, and they ended up dead.

I am sure that someone killed them, but an <modsnip - no link to source> pharmacy technician without prior criminal history at all, who today shows zero dexterity, and is clearly ill, without any knowledge of the girls and who, interestingly, is outside the height range once set by LE (5’4” to 6’2”), is a weak candidate.

I have doubts about ritualistic killings, but if I hear that ISP was mistaken with RA, it won’t surprise me. I can see they were not competent in the start, but today I can’t say that ISP is lazy or not working the case. After that river and police in it, I can’t. But - we all, in our respective fields, have met with cases that are either above our heads or maybe, collateral witnesses are unavailable to tell the true story. What does one do? Brings in a second or third opinion. Send to someone competent.

I can see that ISP wants to close the case, by themselves. They made it world-known, so good luck... The odinites simply prove, to me, once again, that whatever “magic potion” is currently in use at MW, the recipe is too strong even for own Vikings.

However: the fact that their own police names are going down in infamy is too serious. There are many such scandals leaking out of the area, and it is a shame. If indeed in Delphi case LEO were bending the truth, this is useless and I don’t know what they would protect now.

 

[photographer4]

The memorandum prepared by the defense.

RA originally told the conservation officer ( I believe that is his title?) That he was there from 1:30 until 3:30.

When the police showed up at his door, he decided that he was there from noon until 1:30.

Aside from his terrible memory, both he and the group of girls that saw him say they passed each other. Not that they walked along side one another. The group of girls were walking towards Freedom Bridge, leaving the trail. IOW, he was arriving not leaving at that time.

BB, saw Libby and Abby. She also saw a man standing on the bridge platform number one. Richard Allen says that he was standing on that platform.

We also know that the girls arrived closer to 2 PM and not at 1:37 as we believed before.

There is nothing in the writing the defense prepared that would make me believe that anyone other than RA killed those poor girls.


JMO

It is interesting that he originally told the first officer he spoke with that he was there from 1:30-3:30pm - a statement now in dispute in the absence of any actual recording of this statement. I'd like to know, did he sign a written statement outlining what he said? If so, I'd like to see what he signed. I'd prefer audio or video though as those are not as easy to argue against. I could argue that I blindly signed a document without noticing what time it stated I'd been there, but if its recorded and I've said it myself, hard to fight.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I am sure that someone killed them, but an <modsnip - no link to source> pharmacy technician without prior criminal history at all, who today shows zero dexterity, and is clearly ill, without any knowledge of the girls and who, interestingly, is outside the height range once set by LE (5’4” to 6’2”), is a weak candidate.

I have doubts about ritualistic killings, but if I hear that ISP was mistaken with RA, it won’t surprise me. I can see they were not competent in the start, but today I can’t say that ISP is lazy or not working the case. After that river and police in it, I can’t. But - we all, in our respective fields, have met with cases that are either above our heads or maybe, collateral witnesses are unavailable to tell the true story. What does one do? Brings in a second or third opinion. Send to someone competent.

I can see that ISP wants to close the case, by themselves. They made it world-known, so good luck... The odinites simply prove, to me, once again, that whatever “magic potion” is currently in use at MW, the recipe is too strong even for own Vikings.

However: the fact that their own police names are going down in infamy is too serious. There are many such scandals leaking out of the area, and it is a shame. If indeed in Delphi case LEO were bending the truth, this is useless and I don’t know what they would protect now.

Just referencing your first paragraph.

There is video of RA playing pool and bouncing around like a pogo stick 2 months before the murders.


JMO

 

[mrjitty]

o, at this moment in time, I'm considering his side of the story: he got there around noon, he walked out onto the platform to see the fish and left around 1:30.

RSBM - this simply isn't possible though

RA and the 3 girls corroborate each others' sightings. Four sets of testimony. He was walking towards the MH Bridge, and they away from it. In order for him to leave by 1.30pm he would have had to have been walking in the same direction as them.

There is no way around this point for the defence, because RA says he saw the girls and corroborates them. In order for his timing to be correct, it would require that the girls were leaving at midday but we know from other data points this is not correct. In other words, he did enter the trails at 1.30, not leave at 1.30.

 

[Ravenmoon]

It is interesting that he originally told the first officer he spoke with that he was there from 1:30-3:30pm - a statement now in dispute in the absence of any actual recording of this statement. I'd like to know, did he sign a written statement outlining what he said? If so, I'd like to see what he signed. I'd prefer audio or video though as those are not as easy to argue against. I could argue that I blindly signed a document without noticing what time it stated I'd been there, but if its recorded and I've said it myself, hard to fight.

I doubt that he signed anything. There have been so many mistakes made, no argument there.

But we have to take in account the timing of others that were present as well. The group of girls that were leaving as RA was arriving.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

The memorandum prepared by the defense.

RA originally told the conservation officer ( I believe that is his title?) That he was there from 1:30 until 3:30.

When the police showed up at his door, he decided that he was there from noon until 1:30.

Aside from his terrible memory, both he and the group of girls that saw him say they passed each other. Not that they walked along side one another. The group of girls were walking towards Freedom Bridge, leaving the trail. IOW, he was arriving not leaving at that time.

BB, saw Libby and Abby. She also saw a man standing on the bridge platform number one. Richard Allen says that he was standing on that platform.

We also know that the girls arrived closer to 2 PM and not at 1:37 as we believed before.

There is nothing in the writing the defense prepared that would make me believe that anyone other than RA killed those poor girls.


JMO

You said: "We also know that the girls arrived closer to 2 PM and not at 1:37 as we believed before."
I'm confused by that because Becky and Kelsi were very sure about that based on the time the bf call came in. Kelsi's car was seen leaving at a particular time but I've never seen her time of arrival stated by LE.

So how do we justify the time difference? Were the ladies completely wrong? Did the girls take a detour to somewhere for some reason?

 

[O.Incandenza]

And many people believe it is still murder. That’s why legislators enacted it. And why it is as much murder as any other form of murder. Homicide is an overall category. Felony murder equals 1st degree murder where I live and in many other places.

You can argue that the law is wrong but right now, in Indiana, it is murder in this case I believe the defendant both kidnapped and murdered and use a weapon in the commission of both

Ergo, felony murder.

Sure, not arguing that. I wasn't implying that felony murder is better or something. I was just pointing out that it applies to a much broader set of circumstances than just the person charged killing someone during the commission of a felony. And for a one person killing it would be more usual to just charge the person with murder with intent and then with additional charges of kidnapping. So the prosecutors in this case had to have had a reason to choose felony murder as the charge. One theory is that they had co-conspirators in mind that they just hadn't indicted yet. But IMO that gets less and less plausible the longer we go without additional indictments.

And the crime scene details help explain, to me at least, why they made that choice. It's bizarre and complicated enough that it might raise the possibility of accomplices in jurors' minds. But the prosecution doesn't have to worry about that with a felony murder charge.

 

[mrjitty]

It is interesting that he originally told the first officer he spoke with that he was there from 1:30-3:30pm - a statement now in dispute in the absence of any actual recording of this statement. I'd like to know, did he sign a written statement outlining what he said? If so, I'd like to see what he signed. I'd prefer audio or video though as those are not as easy to argue against. I could argue that I blindly signed a document without noticing what time it stated I'd been there, but if its recorded and I've said it myself, hard to fight.

The thing is the notes are the only contemporaneous record, and the 1.30 pm arrival time is corroborated by the 3 girls, and the video of his car. So we know that it was in fact correct. There is really no reason to think his version in '22 is the correct one, and every reason to think he lied.

The problem for the defence is that it is a stupid lie because he admitted to seeing the 3 girls which ties him to a specific timeline. That was his much bigger mistake.

 

[Ravenmoon]

You said: "We also know that the girls arrived closer to 2 PM and not at 1:37 as we believed before."
I'm confused by that because Becky and Kelsi were very sure about that based on the time the bf call came in. Kelsi's car was seen leaving at a particular time but I've never seen her time of arrival stated by LE.

So how do we justify the time difference? Were the ladies completely wrong? Did the girls take a detour to somewhere for some reason?

They have Kelsi's car passing the Hoosier Heartland Store on video at 1:49 PM.
That was heading to the trail.
Delphi Murders: Everything you want to know

 

[Salah11]

The thing is the notes are the only contemporaneous record, and the 1.30 pm arrival time is corroborated by the 3 girls, and the video of his car. So we know that it was in fact correct. There is really no reason to think his version in '22 is the correct one, and every reason to think he lied.

The problem for the defence is that it is a stupid lie because he admitted to seeing the 3 girls which ties him to a specific timeline. That was his much bigger mistake.

Fantastic post

 

[sandy_80]

I am sure that someone killed them, but an <modsnip - no link to source> pharmacy technician without prior criminal history at all, who today shows zero dexterity, and is clearly ill, without any knowledge of the girls and who, interestingly, is outside the height range once set by LE (5’4” to 6’2”), is a weak candidate.

I have doubts about ritualistic killings, but if I hear that ISP was mistaken with RA, it won’t surprise me. I can see they were not competent in the start, but today I can’t say that ISP is lazy or not working the case. After that river and police in it, I can’t. But - we all, in our respective fields, have met with cases that are either above our heads or maybe, collateral witnesses are unavailable to tell the true story. What does one do? Brings in a second or third opinion. Send to someone competent.

I can see that ISP wants to close the case, by themselves. They made it world-known, so good luck... The odinites simply prove, to me, once again, that whatever “magic potion” is currently in use at MW, the recipe is too strong even for own Vikings.

However: the fact that their own police names are going down in infamy is too serious. There are many such scandals leaking out of the area, and it is a shame. If indeed in Delphi case LEO were bending the truth, this is useless and I don’t know what they would protect now.

thats the reason some killers are never caught..ppl tend to look for red flags, criminal history..and all the evil markings.
besides, we dont really know if he wasnt violent in the past
contray to you.. i figured it was him the day he was arrested..not just about how he is similar to the video ( and his dead eyes ) , but cause I always expected someone above suspicion ..also some witnesses alleged he was short.. its just le couldnt make thier mind about it

 

[O.Incandenza]

If I'm understanding things correctly, in 2017, BB gave her description of the guy on the bridge, resulting in the YBG sketch. The OBG sketch was a composite made from multiple sources, according to JH at Crimecon 2018. So LE decided the OBG sketch was likely the better representation from August 2017 to April 2019. LE then interviewed BB two more times in 2019 (per the memorandum), and again, BB described the same person as YBG. I'm guessing this was right before the change in direction PC, maybe? That's also when LE finally decided to request tips on a vehicle parked at the CPS lot, although they gave no description. I know a lot of folks just want this sketch discussion to go away, and that it won't matter, so I'm sorry for continuing on. I'm just fascinated that such an important witness not only described a very different looking man, but also a very different car. JMO. And in 2019, LE decided to run with it.

Yeah, the defense memorandum makes it very clear that the YBG sketch came from BB, the witness who saw a man on the bridge right before Libby & Abby arrived. They cite the Facial Identification Reference Sheet that contains her description of the man on the bridge (20 years old, brown curly hair, medium build), as well her comments about the accuracy of the YBG sketch (10 out of 10 for accuracy). (pp. 105-106)

She apparently gave that description 4 days after the murders. She then went back to the police in 2019 because she was upset that they had been using the OBG sketch instead. She said that sketch was wrong and didn't resemble the man she saw at all. That presumably led to the eventual release of the YBG sketch.

 

[Salah11]

Yeah, the defense memorandum makes it very clear that the YBG sketch came from BB, the witness who saw a man on the bridge right before Libby & Abby arrived. The cite the Facial Identification Reference Sheet that contains her description of the man on the bridge (20 years old, brown curly hair, medium build), as well her comments about the accuracy of the YBG sketch (10 out of 10 for accuracy). (pp. 105-106)

She apparently gave that description 4 days after the murders. She then went back to the police in 2019 because she was upset that they had been using the OBG sketch instead. She said that sketch was wrong and didn't resemble the man she saw at all. That presumably led to the eventual release of the YBG sketch.

If this reaches court it will be fascinating to watch how this plays out because she can place RA on that first platform and RA admits he was on that first platform and yet she may describe a different man.


But I guess if she wasn’t paying attention or she simply got confused it doesn’t matter because RA has corroborated her sighting by placing himself on that platform.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It is interesting that he originally told the first officer he spoke with that he was there from 1:30-3:30pm - a statement now in dispute in the absence of any actual recording of this statement. I'd like to know, did he sign a written statement outlining what he said? If so, I'd like to see what he signed. I'd prefer audio or video though as those are not as easy to argue against. I could argue that I blindly signed a document without noticing what time it stated I'd been there, but if its recorded and I've said it myself, hard to fight.

His car was seen passing the HH store on video at approx. 1:44 pm (arriving IIRC).

 

[girlhasnoname]

If this reaches court it will be fascinating to watch how this plays out because she can place RA on that first platform and RA admits he was on that first platform and yet she may describe a different man.


But I guess if she wasn’t paying attention or she simply got confused it doesn’t matter because RA has corroborated her sighting by placing himself on that platform.

And the load of evidence that the State has (besides his 5 self made confessions) against him that we have no clue about until trial

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

The following is JMO:

There is,was and has NEVER been any cult influence in these murders.

The sticks were simply an abandoned effort to cover the bodies. They were randomly placed.
The F on the tree was not an F, let alone Fehu. It was blood spatter.

The crime was carried out because of a fantasy that was perverse and disgusting.

Just because there may NOT have been penetration, it doesn't mean that the motivation wasn't sexual or that some type of sexual activity did not occur. This entire thing was sexual.

This was one man's work put into motion because he is an abomination.



There is no reasonable way to believe that several men met up on the off chance that a couple of unsuspecting kids would show up and walk on the bridge right into their trap. Oh, plus their cult would have to be magic because there were not, apparently, many sets of footprints.

 

[mrjitty]

If this reaches court it will be fascinating to watch how this plays out because she can place RA on that first platform and RA admits he was on that first platform and yet she may describe a different man.


But I guess if she wasn’t paying attention or she simply got confused it doesn’t matter because RA has corroborated her sighting by placing himself on that platform.

Right. He puts himself on the platform. Even if YBG really existed, RA always has the same problem that he says he didn't see the girls or BB or indeed YBG.

The defence answered a question in the memorandum which to my mind is fatal at trial.

I wondered how the defence was going to account for the fact that RA had to be ahead of BB on the trail, yet he did not see the victims who are inbound. Would the defence admit that RA was the guy BB saw on the bridge? or would they claim it was someone else? IMO the best course of action was to admit that she must have in fact have seen RA, because otherwise where the hell else could he be? And then claim that somehow the victims must have left the trail at some stage, so he could return back down the trail without seeing them.

The problem is, RA has scuppered all that by saying something very stupid to police in recorded interviews. i.e that he left the trails at 1.30pm which is a very foolish lie. But I thought this might happen because police had every opportunity to trip him up in that interview.

Because that was recorded, there is now no chance for the defence to manufacture a version with the perfect timings which he can testify to at trial after hearing all the witness testimony.

Whoops.