IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[Seph]

Hi all! I'm Tricia's guest Lauren and the new form verified expert on Odinism. I'm happy to answer any questions.

 

[Schatz]

Hi all! I'm Tricia's guest Lauren and the new form verified expert on Odinism. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Hi! Welcome! Are you an expert on Odinism as a white nationalist thing or as a pagan belief system (or perhaps both)?

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

IMO ONLY.... his (RA's) only part in this crime was being used by others to get the girls down that hill. I am not convinced he knew much from that point on. Like I said, it's JMO with zero facts to back it up.

Ergo the felony murder charge
JMO

 

[Bergmann]

The 136 page memo is simply supporting a Frank’s Hearing to determine if LE lied when obtaining the search warrant. That’s all the Judge will be ruling on

Agree. But while that's the official function of the memo, the D have used the opportunity to seed a lot of doubt while they're at it. I don't see a lot in that memo that will actually support the D success in the Franks hearing but I still don't believe (MOO) that that is what they're actually trying to do here.

As others have mentioned, LE must’ve found very incriminating things during their search, forcing the defence to write a lengthy fantasy to attempt to have it all tossed

Must have? That's an assumption at this stage until we get to trial.

I would like to think they have more too, something that positively and unequivocally places RA at the crime scene. If they haven't then this is going to be a fascinating case to try in court if they're relying on the bullet case and the witness based timeline because both of those are highly contestable (not MOO but the fact they will be cross examined and contested vigorously in court).

IMO just by the defence taking such desperate actions gives the appearance RA is guilty.

I don't see the substantive things within the report as desperate at all. They are trying to shine a light on elements of the investigation and the prosecutions case/ timeline where they believe they might be able to unpick them and reduce the impact on their client (who is at this stage presumed innocent by the judicial process). I think we would expect a D team to do this whether pre or at trial so I do not characterise this as desperate.

The element that could appear desperate is the inclusion and narrative around the idea of an Odinist cult and in particular the notion of a ritualist slaying. I can get my head around a gang who are affiliated through bonds of their beliefs, doing bad things. But I struggle with the idea that their belief is what is motivating such a heinous crime. This doesn't reflect well on the D team's credibility to soberly present facts and analysis.

However if for a second we agree with the idea that the real purpose behind the D memo is to sow doubt and undermine the validity of the state's case, especially within the community and potential jury pool, then playing with sensationalism like this will get it a broader distribution as the web and TV media will latch onto somethin like that and run with it. Seems high risk but its the only logical explanation that I can arrive at that makes sense. I don't agree that the D at this stage, knowing what they know about the state's case, actually need a 'hail mary' as its been described earlier. I think this is more considered than it appears on first glance.

After all - we are all debating some of these points raised in the memo aren't we, and beyond WS...

All MOO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Agree. But while that's the official function of the memo, the D have used the opportunity to seed a lot of doubt while they're at it. I don't see a lot in that memo that will actually support the D success in the Franks hearing but I still don't believe (MOO) that that is what they're actually trying to do here.


Must have? That's an assumption at this stage until we get to trial.

I would like to think they have more too, something that positively and unequivocally places RA at the crime scene. If they haven't then this is going to be a fascinating case to try in court if they're relying on the bullet case and the witness based timeline because both of those are highly contestable (not MOO but the fact they will be cross examined and contested vigorously in court).

I don't see the substantive things within the report as desperate at all. They are trying to shine a light on elements of the investigation and the prosecutions case/ timeline where they believe they might be able to unpick them and reduce the impact on their client (who is at this stage presumed innocent by the judicial process). I think we would expect a D team to do this whether pre or at trial so I do not characterise this as desperate.

The element that could appear desperate is the inclusion and narrative around the idea of an Odinist cult and in particular the notion of a ritualist slaying. I can get my head around a gang who are affiliated through bonds of their beliefs, doing bad things. But I struggle with the idea that their belief is what is motivating such a heinous crime. This doesn't reflect well on the D team's credibility to soberly present facts and analysis.

However if for a second we agree with the idea that the real purpose behind the D memo is to sow doubt and undermine the validity of the state's case, especially within the community and potential jury pool, then playing with sensationalism like this will get it a broader distribution as the web and TV media will latch onto somethin like that and run with it. Seems high risk but its the only logical explanation that I can arrive at that makes sense. I don't agree that the D at this stage, knowing what they know about the state's case, actually need a 'hail mary' as its been described earlier. I think this is more considered than it appears on first glance.

After all - we are all debating some of these points raised in the memo aren't we, and beyond WS...

All MOO.

I have to say the Defense is going to have one heck of time disputing RA's 5 confessions made on a recorded phone line.

The Defense sensationalized this Memo (the majority isn't even directly related to the Franks Hearing cause) and exploited Abby & Libby with their gruesome account of the crime scene. That is unprofessional and unforgivable IMO. Not to mention the secret killer/sacrificing cult group meeting in broad daylight to sacrifice 2 young girls. Oooooof.

Just like their initial Motion to move RA from Westerville and the allegations of severe mistreatment, I believe the Judge is going to see right through this desperate, dramatic attempt and deny the Motion. The SW's will stand and we have no idea what results the items collected will bring. I'm putting my money on the State's case against RA.

His 5 confessions to his wife and mother. Key
Him placing himself there at the time of the murders wearing identical clothing.- Key

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Hi all! I'm Tricia's guest Lauren and the new form verified expert on Odinism. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Welcome Seph! Just wanted to ask if you've ever heard of Odinism making ritualistic human sacrifices of 2 young, white females during broad daylight?

Not trying to be offensive to the religion, but looking for clarification regarding the claims by the Defense.

Thanks.

 

[katydid23]

IMO ONLY.... his (RA's) only part in this crime was being used by others to get the girls down that hill. I am not convinced he knew much from that point on. Like I said, it's JMO with zero facts to back it up.

Well, if he helped the killers by kidnapping the girls and forcing them down the hill, and giving them over, then RA is right where he belongs, and should be tried for Felony Murder.

 

[Bergmann]

I believe the Judge is going to see right through this desperate, dramatic attempt and deny the Motion. The SW's will stand and we have no idea what results the items collected will bring.

Yes I think that too. The judge can't really throw out the SW without pretty much throwing out the whole case. Regardless I don't see any strength of argument in the memo that would convince the judge - but again, I don't think that's the point. In the Franks hearing won't D have an opportunity to cross examine Liggett? If so I suspect that is what they are playing for, not to get the SW tossed.

His 5 confessions to his wife and mother. Key

I wouldn't regard this as key but do see it as a major contestable factor that will play out at trial.

This is separate to the evidence collected and witness statements as part of the investigation which will have to stand on their own merit (to be seen at trial) independent of the alleged confession.

The legitimacy of the confessions and how impactful they are will be an interesting feature of this trial IMO. The D will argue that the conditions he was held in and his mental state contributed to a false confession (not my opinion just analysis/ speculation).

And of course here is where the true motivation for the D memo comes in. I'm sure (speculating) that D will raise that EF is alleged to have confessed to his two sisters and I'm sure (speculating) D will argue why is this any less of a legitimate confession/ why are prosecution selectively weighing RA's confession more significantly than EFs? Especially when RAs was given in a pressurised scenario (they will argue) and EFs was given freely?

This could then open up questions as to the validity of all of EFs statements which might allow D to question 'how did EF know details which resemble the crime scene?' etc.

Him placing himself there at the time of the murders wearing identical clothing.- Key

I agree this is key. The ability of either the prosecution or D to be able to convince the jury of a reliable timeline of fully cross examined witness testimony could be where any trial will pivot from.

Prosecution will argue that RA placed himself there (and D will argue not at the time or place of the crime). D will argue he did this freely and if he is the perp then why would he do that.

Prosecution will argue they have witnesses which place RA on the trail and MHB. D will attempt I'm sure to highlight inconsistencies in both the statements as given by witnesses (eg black vs blue vs tan jackets); and then go on to cross examine how these have been used and interpreted by LE and P (eg muddy but was the person actually described as bloody by the witness or by LE?).

the SW's will stand and we have no idea what results the items collected will bring.

Yes agree, there must be more to come surely as others have said. Ligget and others have said under oath that there is no DNA or forensic electronics that links RA to the crime scene but there must be something else - fibres etc? As you say we don't know yet.

I'm putting my money on the State's case against RA

At the moment based on what we know to date I personally wouldn't wager a lot of money either way. There's too much not yet known, or not yet proven for me to say how this might turn out and whether any conviction would be sound.

Like many my only motive here is to see justice done for the victims and their families. This case still has too many uncertainties and unknowns this side of a trial to be absolutely sure.

(By the way I agree about your comments about the insensitivity of some of the language and content in the D motion, it was very poor and unhepful to the families).

 

[iamshadow21]

Well, if he helped the killers by kidnapping the girls and forcing them down the hill, and giving them over, then RA is right where he belongs, and should be tried for Felony Murder.

^^^^^THIS.^^^^^

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Many of us have been here from the beginning and watched the anguish these families have suffered. The very last thing we want to see is for them to suffer more needlessly. Carter warned that there will be things coming that will be hard for the families to hear.

With the memorandum, they at least have the option to not read it or to read it in private. I cannot imagine seeing the actual autopsy photos in a crowded court room for the first time. They are shocking even when viewing them on a courtroom livestream.

Depending on the strength of his case, I believe NMcL will show the actual photos and not just diagrams.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Someone asked about RA's cell phones so I pulled them from the search returns. It's a long list but cell tower upgrades could account for a good number of those phones.

RA's phone from CO interview:
MEID-256 691 463 100 153 495
MEIDHEX 9900247025797

From the SW return
2 Audiovox devices, 2 silver Motorola flip phones, 4 car chargers, 3 wall outlet chargers
1 Lexar memory card
1 HP laptop
1 HP Pavillon laptop
1 cardboard phone box with cell info
1 Cruzer micro flash drive
1 Western digital hard drive
1Samsung phone in a floral case
1 external hard drive and cord
1 black IPod
2 SD cards
5 vehicle chargers
9 wall outlet chargers
Misc. phone accessories
1 HP laptop charger
1 black and 1 blue pager
3 Motorola and 1 LG flip phones
1 LG Verizon smart phone
1 LG Verizon side slide smart phone
1 Motorola smart phone
3 older cell phones = Audiovox, Nokia, Motorola
1 Nokia Twist cell phone and documents
1 Garmin StreetPilot device, 2 cords and documentation
1 black Pixel cell phone with an Otterbox case
1 black Samsung Galaxy cell with brown case
1 silver LG Cingular flip phone

 

[TL4S]

We know what items were collected during the search of RA's property. Per the memo, JH testified that there was no forensic or electronic evidence connecting RA to the crime scene, so if that's the case, what is left from the items collected that wouldn't fit within the forensics or electronics (and I know someone will point out the D could have manipulated the wording here)? Ballistics, maybe? (And I don't buy for a minute that the D didn't know exactly what all the test results were before they wrote the memo).

I'm just not convinced that there was anything damning found during the search, causing the D to file for the Frank's hearing. Getting the SW tossed would get rid of the ballistics evidence, I guess. But I personally think that ballistics evidence will really come down to how good the expert witnesses are on both sides.

IMO, if there were legitimate omissions left out of TL's affidavit for the search, then the D had an obligation to file for the Frank's hearing, regardless of their client's guilt or innocence. JMO.

I feel like the D's strategy right now is to be bold and out in everybody's face. If they knew, straight up, that the State's evidence had their client in the bag, why would the D push for broadcasting the trial? Pleading out or keeping RA and the details of the murders out of the public eye would be more beneficial to RA and his family, I would imagine, than a public trial. JMO. Then again, perhaps it's just the strategy for the moment while they wait for the judge. IDK.

I also think there were a lot of details about the crime scene left out of the memo. There are things we don't know about yet, I'm sure, like maybe the signatures, other injuries, or whatnot, and do these things point toward or away from RA? Both the D and the P must benefit by holding some things back for the trial, wouldn't they?

 

[FrostedGlass]

We know what items were collected during the search of RA's property. Per the memo, JH testified that there was no forensic or electronic evidence connecting RA to the crime scene, so if that's the case, what is left from the items collected that wouldn't fit within the forensics or electronics (and I know someone will point out the D could have manipulated the wording here)? Ballistics, maybe? (And I don't buy for a minute that the D didn't know exactly what all the test results were before they wrote the memo).

I'm just not convinced that there was anything damning found during the search, causing the D to file for the Frank's hearing. Getting the SW tossed would get rid of the ballistics evidence, I guess. But I personally think that ballistics evidence will really come down to how good the expert witnesses are on both sides.

IMO, if there were legitimate omissions left out of TL's affidavit for the search, then the D had an obligation to file for the Frank's hearing, regardless of their client's guilt or innocence. JMO.

I feel like the D's strategy right now is to be bold and out in everybody's face. If they knew, straight up, that the State's evidence had their client in the bag, why would the D push for broadcasting the trial? Pleading out or keeping RA and the details of the murders out of the public eye would be more beneficial to RA and his family, I would imagine, than a public trial. JMO. Then again, perhaps it's just the strategy for the moment while they wait for the judge. IDK.

I also think there were a lot of details about the crime scene left out of the memo. There are things we don't know about yet, I'm sure, like maybe the signatures, other injuries, or whatnot, and do these things point toward or away from RA? Both the D and the P must benefit by holding some things back for the trial, wouldn't they?

I was curious about what all is considered forensic evidence; a quick Google search returns this:

What is forensic evidence for crime?
In simple terms, forensic evidence is any kind of evidence that is obtained via scientific methods, like blood tests, DNA tests, ballistics analysis, and so on. It's the kind of evidence often shown in popular crime shows on TV, and it can be crucial in coming to a fair and justified decision in a legal case.
May 2, 2023

I agree with you about broadcasting the trial. Click said he also supports D's motion for cameras in the court room. Transparency.

 

[Tealgrove]

We know what items were collected during the search of RA's property. Per the memo, JH testified that there was no forensic or electronic evidence connecting RA to the crime scene, so if that's the case, what is left from the items collected that wouldn't fit within the forensics or electronics? Ballistics, maybe? (And I don't buy for a minute that the D didn't know exactly what all the test results were before they wrote the memo).

I'm just not convinced that there was anything damning found during the search, causing the D to file for the Frank's hearing. Getting the SW tossed would get rid of the ballistics evidence, I guess. But I personally think that ballistics evidence will really come down to how good the expert witnesses are on both sides.

IMO, if there were legitimate omissions left out of TL's affidavit for the search, then the D has an obligation to file for the Frank's hearing, regardless of their client's guilt or innocence. JMO.

I feel like the D's strategy right now is to be bold and out in everybody's face. If they knew, straight up, that the State's evidence had their client in the bag, why would the D push for broadcasting the trial? Pleading out or keeping RA and the details of the murders out of the public eye would be more beneficial to RA and his family, I would imagine, than a public trial. JMO. Then again, perhaps it's just the strategy for the moment while they wait for the judge. IDK.

I also think there were a lot of details about the crime scene left out of the memo. There are things we don't know about yet, I'm sure, like maybe the signatures, other injuries, or whatnot, and do I these things point toward or away from RA? Both the D and the P must benefit by holding some things back for the trial, wouldn't they?

I honestly have a hard time believing much of anything the Defence has to say at this point. After they made all their claims about RA’s living conditions that proved to be false, they lost all credibility in my eyes.

They made a point that RA’s DNA didn’t match anything at the crime scene. Ok, I guess, but…the truth could be that the girls’ DNA could have been found on his clothes, in his car, which would then link him the murders but not directly to the crime scene.

As with LISK, a hair from KA may have been found at the crime scene but not RA’s.

They were looking for animal hairs at one point too. Well, maybe a family pet can be linked.

Their language and choice of words is trickery IMO.

12 phones were found while doing the search. Hmmm…maybe RA was using an old phone of his daughter’s or his wife. Not his phone so…don’t look at me!

All of this would make those assertions in the memorandum technically true.

I said this before and I’ll say it again, it’s more important to look for what is missing from that memorandum than what is in it.

They wanted two things to happen with that Frank’s Memorandum. The first and most important was to get the SW thrown out. IMO there’s evidence forthcoming that will bury RA. Secondly, they needed to get all the LE ineptitude out in the public. They needed to taint public opinion of the guys and gals that put RA behind bars.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Many of us have been here from the beginning and watched the anguish these families have suffered. The very last thing we want to see is for them to suffer more needlessly. Carter warned that there will be things coming that will be hard for the families to hear.

With the memorandum, they at least have the option to not read it or to read it in private. I cannot imagine seeing the actual autopsy photos in a crowded court room for the first time. They are shocking even when viewing them on a courtroom livestream.

Depending on the strength of his case, I believe NMcL will show the actual photos and not just diagrams.

Usually they do no show content like that on the stream

 

[mrjitty]

I have to say the Defense is going to have one heck of time disputing RA's 5 confessions made on a recorded phone line.

RSBM

My understanding is there is little legal basis to challenge such confessions as it is long established that there is no basis for an expection of privacy on those calls (cf a meeting with lawyer)

The defence will try to challenge then factually - i.e its all terrible unfair because he was held under shocking conditions and thus made a false confession. To my mind, even if the conditions are bad, its hard to understand how that would result in a false confession.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I honestly have a hard time believing much of anything the Defence has to say at this point. After they made all their claims about RA’s living conditions that proved to be false, they lost all credibility in my eyes.

They made a point that RA’s DNA didn’t match anything at the crime scene. Ok, I guess, but…the truth could be that the girls’ DNA could have been found on his clothes, in his car, which would then link him the murders but not directly to the crime scene.

As with LISK, a hair from KA may have been found at the crime scene but not RA’s.

They were looking for animal hairs at one point too. Well, maybe a family pet can be linked.

Their language and choice of words is trickery IMO.

12 phones were found while doing the search. Hmmm…maybe RA was using an old phone of his daughter’s or his wife. Not his phone so…don’t look at me!

All of this would make those assertions in the memorandum technically true.

I said this before and I’ll say it again, it’s more important to look for what is missing from that memorandum than what is in it.

They wanted two things to happen with that Frank’s Memorandum. The first and most important was to get the SW thrown out. IMO there’s evidence forthcoming that will bury RA. Secondly, they needed to get all the LE ineptitude out in the public. They needed to taint public opinion of the guys and gals that put RA behind bars.

MOO

I agree.
I’ll add also that if, according to the defense, there is no evidence linking RA to the crime, why are they trying to kill the search warrant. Why spent all that time spinning a tale of pagan cults and writing a 136 page document? Why not tell the judge you want your speedy trial after all, right now. Then go to court and watch the prosecution’s case implode. What are they afraid of?

 

[TL4S]

For years now, there's been a LOT of public posts about the ineptitude of LE. Then it was the ineptitude of NMcL. Now, when the D hands some of that ineptitude to the public on a silver platter, it's the D who is targeted and the State's evidence is without question. It's hard to navigate. JMO.

 

[Bergmann]

The D actually doing their job and not just by challenging things, but setting baits and traps for the prosecution at trial (which is what my opinion is that motivates a 136 memo...) seems to upset and annoy people - 'how dare they' etc.

If you want a sound and sustainable finding of guilt that will withstand appeals and all the rest then you want to see a D do their job properly. Notwithstanding the Odin cult/ conspiracy stuff and all the poor wording etc which doesn't help, I think the D are doing the kind of job I'd expect them to do at this stage.

As I said in an earlier post, both sides do a lot of positioning pre-trial to try to stack the deck in their favour well before the trial begins. Prosecution want to show that 'look he's obviously guilty so don't ask too many questions or make too big a deal of this, let us do our job, try him in court and then lock him up'. Shackled perp walks and leaks etc are just part of the show to paint the accused in the worst possible light.

Whereas the D will always want to challenge admissibility of evidence, procedures, LE investigation decisions, spread doubt and show 'look he's an innocent man been tangled up in this by a bungled police investigation and a DA who is politically motived to get this cleared up - they got the wrong guy and look they should have followed up these guys instead...'.

I haven't made up my mind, I don't think its possible/ appropriate to based on what we know so far, so I don't mind all this jostling at the start line, it comes with the territory. Some others haven't decided either. But some have decided guilty or otherwise and all I'd say to them is just wait until the totality of evidence and its true measured weight is understood and then decide.

 

[iamnotagolem]

For years now, there's been a LOT of public posts about the ineptitude of LE. Then it was the ineptitude of NMcL. Now, when the D hands some of that ineptitude to the public on a silver platter, it's the D who is targeted and the State's evidence is without question. It's hard to navigate. JMO.

The two are not mutually exclusive, I agree LE was very inept and did a poor job investigating, filing tips, following up on tips, in general bad police work. If LE had done a good job investigating this case would have been solved week one and RA wouldn't have been free the last 6 years. That doesn't mean the defense isn't out of line with the cult sacrifice conspiracy theory without any evidence.