IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[MistyWaters]

It worries me how much the trial might hinge on these confessions if say the timelines offered by either side cancel each other out and the jury can't choose between them and the confessions swing the balance.

As a rule I really don't like convictions that rely on confession evidence, I would prefer some solid forensics to underpin what has been confessed to, makes a conviction much more robust.

I know others would happily take the confession and convict!

RA has been indicted, EF has not. RA’s confession was made several months after he was charged and arrested.

 

[mrjitty]

RA has been indicted, EF has not. RA’s confession was made several months after he was charged and arrested.

I am kind of amazed how little weight posters are giving to an actual taped confession

I realise we haven't heard it, but if it is a genuine confession the case is over.

 

[FrostedGlass]

We were cautioned many times about the possibility of false confessions. Now we have one or two.

I'm not even sure if there is such a thing as "details only the killer knows" at this point. Maybe those details were part of the internet rumors as early as Feb 14.

 

[MistyWaters]

I am kind of amazed how little weight posters are giving to an actual taped confession

I realise we haven't heard it, but if it is a genuine confession the case is over.

I agree. Any confession voluntarily made to loved ones, a wife and mother, stands to be very incriminating especially that he’d already been charged. Then he totally ignores her as she bursts into tears during the following court hearing. It gives the appearance that he has resigned himself to his guilty fate, maybe unable to eat all the paper revealing the evidence against him I suppose.

 

[mrjitty]

I agree. Any confession voluntarily made to loved ones, a wife and mother, stands to be very incriminating. Then he totally ignores her as she bursts into tears during the following court hearing. It gives the appearance that he has resigned to his guilty fate.

Right?

On one other case I followed the accused made some incriminating statements on a prison call which certainly helped sink him, but had he actually confessed to the murder?

Wow - never seen that before

The idea the defence can explain it away is ... 50% hopium/50% copium IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Right?

On one other case I followed the accused made some incriminating statements on a prison call which certainly helped sink him, but had he actually confessed to the murder?

Wow - never seen that before

The idea the defence can explain it away is ... 50% hopium/50% copium IMO

Especially troublesome for the defence is they already tried to discount it once by mental-duress-due-to-incarceration, demanding he be moved and that attempt failed. He was examined by psychologists, the judge ordered the results be given to the defence and the request for his move was denied.

Flash forward and now it’s Odinist prison guards who were threatening him, even though he’s watched 24/7. So I somehow doubt that essentially the same excuse will be allowed to arise in the future. It would seem the Judge and Westville prison are doing everything possible to prevent him and his defence team from casting blame on others.

 

[twall]

Dbm

 

[MistyWaters]

This latest motion by the defence was 7 pages! This link doesn’t give the actual pdf but it does contain an extensive summary. What I noticed is the defence wants “several police reports and multiple audio recordings from interviews” that may support defence theories. That kiboshes the oft claim that the Odinism theory was never investigated, unless we are about to hear of a different defence theory, aliens this time perhaps?

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

The defense team pointed to an overwhelming amount of discovery recently provided by the prosecutor in making the deadline request.

www.wthr.com

“The defense attorneys said they are still waiting for at least five “particularly important” items that may support the defense theories of who murdered the girls, including several police reports and multiple audio recordings from interviews conducted by investigators.”

 

[FrostedGlass]

@MistyWaters What about this part?
This previously posted article came as the result of the Motion for Discovery Deadline RA's atty filed. Can we find that one? WTHR says in the article 13News obtained it.

The paragraph second from the bottom talks about the recent docs that contain info about SW's out of Marion Co. for internet and phone records and

"including at least one unknown person who admitted to killing the girls, even providing details unknown to the general public of the crime scene such as the fact that he used a knife in a way consistent with the manner of death and also claiming that he used a gun but never fired it.”

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

The defense team pointed to an overwhelming amount of discovery recently provided by the prosecutor in making the deadline request.

www.wthr.com

 

[MistyWaters]

@MistyWaters What about this part?
This previously posted article came as the result of the Motion for Discovery Deadline RA's atty filed. Can we find that one? WTHR says in the article 13News obtained it.

The paragraph second from the bottom talks about the recent docs that contain info about SW's out of Marion Co. for internet and phone records and

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

The defense team pointed to an overwhelming amount of discovery recently provided by the prosecutor in making the deadline request.

www.wthr.com

I’ve no doubt the media obtained a copy of the motion, however they’ve chosen not to release it to the public for some reason. Interesting though, how this motion disputes some of their allegations in the memo. From lack of investigation to demands for known investigative results.

 

[zh0r4]

I am kind of amazed how little weight posters are giving to an actual taped confession

I realise we haven't heard it, but if it is a genuine confession the case is over.

I would personally like all of the information. It would be great if there is a P memo, that cites and quotes these confessions as the D memo does (i.e., “RA confessed on x date in a taped/recorded interview with x officer @ x:x:x min”)-this is why I was asking if something like this exists. I would like to read it as I did the D memo. IMO the media, for example, is not straight from LE/P; details can get lost from source to source. This is why I prefer reading all information from both P and D which typically cites the source of their information. JMO just because I would like to have everything before forming an opinion, does not mean I believe RA is innocent or guilty.

I understand keeping case details secret before a trial. At the same time I don’t feel trial by media is appropriate in any case. If there is DNA evidence tying a suspect to a crime scene, which is the strongest evidence IMO, there is no reason to keep that secret; if there is not DNA evidence tying an suspect to a crime scene, what evidence is there that proves beyond a reasonable doubt this suspect is the right and only suspect? Why should I take anyone’s word without detailed explanation? What makes some LE’s perception/opinion more important than others? Why can’t I value both? P and D will both need to present their case in court, and both sides will naturally need to be able to stand against scrutiny from the other side. A strong case will stand. All MOO.

 

[zh0r4]

@MistyWaters What about this part?
This previously posted article came as the result of the Motion for Discovery Deadline RA's atty filed. Can we find that one? WTHR says in the article 13News obtained it.

The paragraph second from the bottom talks about the recent docs that contain info about SW's out of Marion Co. for internet and phone records and

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

The defense team pointed to an overwhelming amount of discovery recently provided by the prosecutor in making the deadline request.

www.wthr.com

“Monday afternoon, Allen’s lawyers filed a motion requesting that prosecutor Nick McLeland and the state of Indiana “produce all evidence in its possession immediately and also that the Court set a Nov. 1, 2023, deadline to do so.”

JMO If I were the P, I would ideally have everything I need and not hesitate turning everything over because I would be confident my case is solid. It’s confusing to me how this type of alleged behavior from the P is seen as normal. Maybe the D is just making it all up, who knows? Although, it seems counterproductive to make this up and put in extra work to file all of these motions, which would take time away from building your case from what evidence you already have against your client. JMO it is abnormal and creates doubt unnecessarily.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I’ve no doubt the media obtained a copy of the motion, however they’ve chosen not to release it to the public for some reason. Interesting though, how this motion disputes some of their allegations in the memo. From lack of investigation to demands for known investigative results.

The video included in your article shows copies of parts of the motions. If the news released all the docs they have, we probably would know a lot more than we do.

They've only had "14 hard drives, five more flash drives and three more discs" for 24 days. How would a person ever know where to begin unless P gave them minute markers or whatever (which I seriously doubt).

 

[MistyWaters]

The video included in your article shows copies of parts of the motions. If the news released all the docs they have, we probably would know a lot more than we do.

They've only had "14 hard drives, five more flash drives and three more discs" for 24 days. How would a person ever know where to begin unless P gave them minute markers or whatever (which I seriously doubt).

If MSM released every motion there’d be far less clicks on their news reports telling us what the motions say, is my guess.

Yes that’s an extraordinary amount of discovery with more still to come. I doubt it was catalogued in any way, in addition to compiling it, that would take even more time. LE did say each of the 50000 tips was investigated plus it was a very complex investigation. That amount of discovery prompts me to believe that to be so.

 

[FrostedGlass]

“Monday afternoon, Allen’s lawyers filed a motion requesting that prosecutor Nick McLeland and the state of Indiana “produce all evidence in its possession immediately and also that the Court set a Nov. 1, 2023, deadline to do so.”

JMO If I were the P, I would ideally have everything I need and not hesitate turning everything over because I would be confident my case is solid. It’s confusing to me how this type of alleged behavior from the P is seen as normal. Maybe the D is just making it all up, who knows? Although, it seems counterproductive to make this up and put in extra work to file all of these motions, which would take time away from building your case from what evidence you already have against your client. JMO it is abnormal and creates doubt unnecessarily.

I don't blindly trust either side but I admittedly scrutinize the P's actions more closely than I do the D's. I would be so happy if NMcL would do something that would help me regain my trust/confidence in him.

Sealing all the docs, (even the arrest docs), calling for a gag order and opposing cameras in the court surely add to my doubts. I see the defense wanting to do just the opposite.
I badly want to see what P has.

MOO... not trying to convince anyone else otherwise.

 

[girlhasnoname]

My interpretation is that some people here don't like that the sister who this information comes from didn't go to LE with it until 2-3 weeks later, which has been explained by the D as her not knowing about the murder until then, but to a lot of people it simply coincides with the first announcement of a reward. She's suspect to people here because she was given a polygraph, even though the D is saying she did this basically because she wasn't being listened to.

Since it's been suggested that the sisters were just out to get the reward money by throwing their brother under the bus, it apparently makes the sisters' statements void. They must have told their brother, "Oh, and if you are ever given a DNA test, tell them you spit on one of the girls!" It doesn't seem like a very logical plan to me, but so be it. It's just my opinion, after all.

It's not even considered by many a possibility that the sisters are telling the truth, because EF isn't behind bars thanks to DNA evidence. Just because he said he spit on one of them doesn't tell the whole story, IMO. To me, the fact that LE has DNA tested KAK, TK, TK's dog, EF, and likely a multitude of others suggests that there is something from the CS to compare, although we don't really know. But the D says JH testified that there isn't RA DNA evidence, either. What do we do with that?

I just don't get the concept that the D is straight up lying in this memo. Their tactics might totally suck, but if they were lying without any supportive evidence to back it up, I'd be worried eventually it would be deemed that RA did not receive competent counsel. I don't want to see that happen, either, if he's guilty. JMO.

I respect your beliefs. I know this case brings many emotions out of all of us, myself included. All of us process information differently and we're all speculating on a lot of things at this point, which I try and point out often. We won't know the reality of everything until trial.

I just don't believe the ridiculous ritualistic sacrifice by a gang of Odinists theory of the Defense and therefore find everything else they are alluding to suspect, and the fact they exploited Abby and Libby with the gruesome details of the crime scene to me is unforgivable.

Defendant Allen is entitled to a vigorous defense absolutely, just like any other. I most certainly hope there isn't an appellate issue by ineffective counsel in the future. The girls, their families and loved ones surely don't need to suffer further agony, but I honestly can say I wouldn't be shocked if that was a possibility.

How do we know EF isn't behind bars only due to DNA or lack of? TL has said they recovered fingerprints and DNA (could be partial?) so someone is uniformed, misinformed or lying here. We haven't seen any of the information from the testing done by the evidence they've collected from the SW's. Carpet from the trunk, possible blue jacket, all the phone and computer data, phone records, etc.

That to me is the ENTIRE reason we're even see this craziness. The Defense is desperate to get that evidence thrown out because it is so damning to Defendant Allen.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

There should be a time stamp in the right hand corner. What time does your copy say? Mine is stamped at 2:06 am.

I had one that had "Final Draft" in the left hand corner but that one was taken down so I have no proof that I ever saw it. At the time, I wondered if it was uploaded by accident.

Mine is time stamped as well and does not say "Final Draft" anywhere on the document. I personally don't believe it was uploaded by accident at all, it was a calculated move by the Defense.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

JMO I don’t believe some psychopaths can even pass a polygraph, much less a normal person. I know they are not admissible in court but I have more evidence JM is telling the truth than lying. Why would I assume anyone who passed a polygraph is lying about something like this?

I've seen quite a few cases where the guilty passed an initial polygraph, it's not unheard of. That's part of the reason they're not admissible in court.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The quote said nothing about leaking evidence, Bergmann was only stating that both the D and the P want to win the case, both have jobs to do.

The public domain and public opinion can influence juries. So either side could choose to release or not release information that could hurt their case to the public.

RBBM - Not with a gag order in place.

 

[MistyWaters]

I respect your beliefs. I know this case brings many emotions out of all of us, myself included. All of us process information differently and we're all speculating on a lot of things at this point, which I try and point out often. We won't know the reality of everything until trial.

I just don't believe the ridiculous ritualistic sacrifice by a gang of Odinists theory of the Defense and therefore find everything else they are alluding to suspect, and the fact they exploited Abby and Libby with the gruesome details of the crime scene to me is unforgivable.

Defendant Allen is entitled to a vigorous defense absolutely, just like any other. I most certainly hope there isn't an appellate issue by ineffective counsel in the future. The girls, their families and loved ones surely don't need to suffer further agony, but I honestly can say I wouldn't be shocked if that was a possibility.

How do we know EF isn't behind bars only due to DNA or lack of? TL has said they recovered fingerprints and DNA (could be partial?) so someone is uniformed, misinformed or lying here. We haven't seen any of the information from the testing done by the evidence they've collected from the SW's. Carpet from the trunk, possible blue jacket, all the phone and computer data, phone records, etc.

That to me is the ENTIRE reason we're even see this craziness. The Defense is desperate to get that evidence thrown out because it is so damning to Defendant Allen.

MOO

Excellent points, we won’t know the full extent of evidence against Defendant Allen until his trial meanwhile the defence is desperately focusing on anything and everything except him. A definite change of tactics from that pic of the pathetic looking guy in the red housecoat.