IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

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It was a long and winding slog but I listened.

Sounded like MS had a rough week.

JMHO, the first tell is that MS starts this episode asserting that the episode is not about the case but about the podcasters who podcast around the case. Hmmm.

(Journalism Rule #1. Reporters should not become the story.)

MS then ends the podcast asserting that this is all about the case which is now in some type of jeopardy of having the defense team removed.

(Okay, so it is about the case after all?)

During the podcast, MS laid out a social media caper timeline:
crime-scene-photo leak - quickly spreads to podcasters and social media - MS responsible podcast holds back - a mole reaches out - text screens are shot - leaker is ID'd - "research" on FB is performed - LE is informed - Defense is informed - and in the end - the leaker's suicide ...
all related to the Delhi case.

MS eventually turned in (to the Indiana State Police), the crime scene photos in their possession, along with their research info as to source of leak.

Then, MS called the Defense to notify them as well "to be fair".

Essentially, MS inserts itself into this case. (I'm not judging. Just saying. It was voluntary.)

Does this make MS a witness in this case?

(IMO seems a bit odd, that MS would take it upon themselves to call the Defense. LE or P would have to tell D. Weird they felt that was necessary. One of these podcasters has a law practice so ... law-bro code?)

It felt to me that the leak and ... the leaker's suicide ... were the real stories here.

It felt to me like MS decided THEY wanted to tell the story b/4 someone else did.

*********
Let's assume the MS timeline and leak story - are accurately portrayed.

IMO, I think we'd need to take a beat and think about how leaked facts - that the Defense already has possession of - hurts the Defense, hurts RA, hurts the Prosecution, hurts LE, hurts the victims/family, hurts the Press?

Harm to LE Investigation
I can see how it hurts the ongoing LE investigation (which LE - last we knew - insists is ongoing?)
MS "reports" how grateful LE was and how seriously they took the leak.
I would think LE would be devastated.

Harm to Defense - Disciplinary?
MS doesn't say how their "we have the leaked crime scene photos and notified ISP" conversation went with the Defense.

If the leak came from defense side (MS has not explained this, only loosely implied a connection)
- that's against rules. It's also against gag order. Warning or Contempt of Court? BUT BUT BUT ...
(as MS describes) we now have the leaker's psychological state in play and under question. Is the leaker's judgement the defense's fault here? MS doesn't say how the "we have the leaked crime scene photos" chat went with the Defense.

IMO, MS speculating the viability of the defense team or the defense's case due to the leak - seems a bit over the top. Removing RA's defense team, if they are vigorously repping RA... slows the case ... and ... gives RA reason to question the fairness of trial when they pull the rug out from under him for something that's not his fault.

Harm to Facts/Both Prosecution and Defense
As to the damage of facts (crime scene photos) being released to public (inappropriately) - they'd be presented at trial. They'd be kept private/jury/experts/court only. What's the damage if the facts are widely seen? (I think nothing but public opinion pre-trial would be affected - and that is already a national problem and that problem already exists in spades.)

Harm to RA.
Venue? Can he still have a fair trial? (I think yes.) Maybe now he's assured of a trial open to the public? Which is what he asked for.

Harm to Victim/Family:
They might have a case. I don't know; I haven't researched it. Perhaps against anyone that monetized them. The leaker? Against those (podcasters etc) that monetize their social media? Against any advertisers. (On this - high-five to the ethical Murder Sheet!)

Harm to the 4th Estate:
As to damage to the Press. None.

All things considered ... Is MS expecting their involvement to make it into the court record? Is MS a new witness? Are they getting ahead of the court news cycle?

And I do agree w/ MS; the leak was massively disrespectful to the process, family, and victims.

(Forgive me but ... listening to 29 minutes of chiding for 4 minutes of news ... that was painful.)
Thank you for this summary (although understandably painful).

The timing of these alleged leaks, the release of the D memo and subsequent legal filings is quite odd. I also find it unprofessional to publicly insinuate anyone specific (D, LE, P), was responsible for said leaks. JMO.

Were the texts/etc. sent to anyone in digital forensics before coming to any of these conclusions? What info did the EXIF data provide, if any? Is it possible digital files were compromised via an outside entity, and no one in P, D, LE, leaked anything? Where is proof that this alleged R who leaked the CS photos actually exists and committed suicide? How did MS verify R was a real person? How did MS verify R committed suicide? If real, what was R’s background and connection to the case other than allegedly “connected to the D”? What was R’s alleged connection to the D? How were the photos deemed to be legitimate CS photos?

If the story is true, why leak the photos now but at no time in the last 6 years? Did MS receive the CS photos a while back but only now mention it?

I have so many questions.
 
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Thank you for this summary (although understandably painful).

The timing of these alleged leaks, the release of the D memo and subsequent legal filings is quite odd. I also find it unprofessional to publicly insinuate anyone specific (D, LE, P), was responsible for said leaks. JMO.

Were the texts/etc. sent to anyone in digital forensics before coming to any of these conclusions? What did the EXIF data say? Is it possible digital files were compromised via an outside entity, and no one in P, D, LE, leaked anything? Where is proof that this alleged R who leaked the CS photos actually exists and committed suicide? How did MS verify R was a real person? How did MS verify R committed suicide? If real, what was R’s background and connection to the case other than allegedly “connected to the D”? What was R’s alleged connection to the D? How were the photos deemed to be legitimate CS photos?

If the story is true, why leak the photos now but at no time in the last 6 years? Did MS receive the CS photos a while back but only now mention it?

I have so many questions.

yeah - lotta questions.

Was surprised to learn there'd been a leak. Let alone a leaker that committed suicide (apparently the same week?) And MS says a leaker "likely via the defense". Time to bang my head on the desk.

I had no idea until listening to MS and seeing that Grey had a tree covered in blood stain photos and a shoe in the creek photo ... that these were leaked crime scene photos. I've not seen any others or seen them anywhere else. Not that I get around that much.
 
yeah - lotta questions.

Was surprised to learn there'd been a leak. Let alone a leaker that committed suicide (apparently the same week?) And MS says a leaker "likely via the defense". Time to bang my head on the desk.

I had no idea until listening to MS and seeing that Grey had a tree covered in blood stain photos and a shoe in the creek photo ... that these were leaked crime scene photos. I've not seen any others or seen them anywhere else. Not that I get around that much.
“DELPHI, Ind. — An investigation by “The Murder Sheet” podcast, certain elements of which have been confirmed by FOX59, indicates an alleged leak of sensitive crime scene evidence by Richard Allen’s defense team that could derail the early 2024 trial of the man accused of killing two young girls in Delphi nearly seven years ago.

…….

Allen’s attorneys, Andrew Baldwin of Franklin and Bradley Rozzi of Logansport, first earned the ire of Judge Gull last December when, just weeks after their appointments, the team released a three-page press release blasting the case against their client.

In response, Judge Gull issued a gag order on all parties, assuring that Allen’s guilt or innocence would be debated in a Carroll County courtroom and not in the media.

Then, this past spring, an inadvertent leak of discovery evidence popped up on social media, and Allen’s attorneys took responsibility for the mistake, resulting in an admonition from the Court to more carefully guard the State’s discovery documents.

September was marked by a flurry of defense filings claiming the State had withheld evidence and misled the original judge in seeking a search warrant for Allen’s home while trotting out a theory that cultists could have committed the murders.

Those filings drew a sharp rebuke from Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland, who decried what he referred to as sensationalistic and unsubstantiated claims even as investigators were forced to retrace their steps, conduct follow up interviews with sources and comply with massive discovery demands.

Now it appears that over the last month, social media discussions have centered around what would seem to be specific inside knowledge of the defense team’s strategy and evidence as well as claims that certain crime scene evidence had been acquired, though not published.

“The Murder Sheet” podcasters Kevin Greenlee and Áine Cain reported today and confirmed to FOX59 that a social media source revealed to them the existence of those evidentiary items on Oct. 5.

That tip led the podcasters to confirm the identities of persons associated with the leaked information.

One of those persons identified is reportedly a former professional associate of Baldwin’s.

Facebook messages reviewed by FOX 59 contain discussions by two other people — a man from Hamilton County who reportedly received the information from the former Baldwin associate, and a Texas man with whom he shared that information.

In those messages, the Indiana participant writes, “defense just got girls phone records,” and, “they are saying that there is stuff good for Rick.”

In another message from earlier this month, the Facebook author writes he is supposed to go to Franklin during the upcoming weekend and that he just wants, “a fair fight,” for the defense while blasting the prosecution.

That was followed up by a handful of messages from Oct. 5 as the same participant refers to, “my guy,” and, “He’s going to be with Andy tonight. He was talking about me going down Saturday.”

There are also messages where the sender asks the recipient to, “protect me,” in the release of evidentiary items as the two correspondents discuss how best to cover their tracks while referring, presumably, to an individual involved in the inadvertent leak of defense evidence last spring.

Greenlee and Cain told FOX59 that the Texas social media Delphi follower contacted them when he became aware of the explosive and sensitive nature of the leaked information and urged them to contact Indiana State Police investigators so as not to run afoul of the Court’s gag order, be cited for Contempt of Court or be found in possession of illicitly obtained exclusive evidence.

Following a conversation with investigators, the podcasters said they then deleted the files from their electronic devices and posted a podcast update today, detailing their involvement in the acquisition of the leaked information and the identification of the participants while calling upon the social media community to show restraint and not disseminate the evidence or discuss it in detail.

ISP reportedly launched its investigation into the leak early last week, which would have preceded Judge Gull’s Thursday morning notice of an upcoming hearing to consider, “other matters which have recently arisen.”

(Continued)

 
Unless the P is sitting on evidence we are unaware of, no. Only the eye witness accounts, allegations of where his car was at certain times, and the unspent cartridge, which are all shaky. The most damning piece of evidence so far is his alleged confession. All JMO.
He put himself on the bridge.
 
@zh0r4

Thank you for finding this article!

Indiana State Police reportedly investigating evidence leak in Delphi murder case

Y'all - Read this article; it's nuts.

(Phew. After suffering through that MS episode, I thought I was nuts.)

from the above linked article:

Facebook messages reviewed by FOX 59 contain discussions by two other people — a man from Hamilton County who reportedly received the information from the former Baldwin associate, and a Texas man with whom he shared that information.



In those messages, the Indiana participant writes, “defense just got girls phone records,” and, “they are saying that there is stuff good for Rick.”

^ good things on "girls" phone records? Did Abby have a phone?

Greenlee and Cain told FOX59 that the Texas social media Delphi follower contacted them when he became aware of the explosive and sensitive nature of the leaked information and urged them to contact Indiana State Police investigators so as not to run afoul of the Court’s gag order, be cited for Contempt of Court or be found in possession of illicitly obtained exclusive evidence.

^ so someone showing photo of blood splatter on tree trunks ... possesses "illicitly obtained exclusive evidence". *rut roh*

ISP reportedly launched its investigation into the leak early last week, which would have preceded Judge Gull’s Thursday morning notice of an upcoming hearing to consider, “other matters which have recently arisen.”

^ if this is the purpose of the Oct 19th hearing, it likely won't be televised or recorded. We'll see.

Following a conversation with investigators, the podcasters said they then deleted the files from their electronic devices and posted a podcast update today,

^ Yeah, this is what I figured the MS podcast was really about. Getting ahead of the press. They are witnesses now. Not just journalists.

JMHO: They shouldn't be part of the case they are covering yet ... there they are. For me, the real transgression is - in the public realm - on a podcast devoted to this case - MS is passing judgement on the Defense and suggesting the Judge should fire RA's counsel. Ethical, perhaps. But then again, they should have kept their opinions to themselves.


FOX59 has learned that an individual named as one of the social media followers involved in the leak died unexpectedly this past week after investigators began their inquiry.

^ Oh gosh. It's true. The leaker committed suicide AFTER investigators began their inquiry. :eek:

Legal experts consulted by FOX59 indicate that a leak of this nature, considering earlier orders from the judge, might result in either another warning from the bench or the dismissal of the attorneys and the appointment of a new legal team to represent Allen and therefore almost certainly lead to a delay in his January 8, 2024, trial date.

^ That sounds like a quote from MS. Given the leaker's suicide, I'm betting on a warning. We'll see.

************

Okay, I miss this case's breaking news most of the time. But I'm pretty sure this is a pretty BIG case headline. And I was here to see it. Whatdayaknow.

I'm not sure I understand how the "girls phones" could "help" RA. Another mystery.

Q: and does Abby have a phone? or just Libby? I saw a documentary where Abby's mom said she had no phone ... but was waiting for one ... the rule was she could get one for 8th grade or something like that.

JMHO:
Feels like MS tipped the press here as well. hmmm.
 
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Since some of the shock has absorbed, I read the D document again because of interest in their 92 reasons one guy couldn't pull off this dbl homicide. It made me feel physically exhausted from reading the steps required to get sweet Abby into those clothes and shoes. Her specific injury reminded me that her Feb 14 death date.

Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, of Delphi, died Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2017

Recall Ron Logan taking the reporter back to the location on his property where the yellow CS tape had been attached. Ron told the reporter the area is "pristine." We knew then that the leaves on the ground weren't disturbed much as tossing piles of leaves upon the girls. <sbm>

KK was supposed to meet Libby at MHB that fateful day but, in a strange twist of fate, the random killer, RA, took the girls off the bridge and into the woods. How bizarre is that?

Recall the MS also brought KK's case to us for it was by serendipity that they grabbed a link that the clerk of the court temporarily misfiled as open to lawyers and Greenlee was there for it.
 
Since some of the shock has absorbed, I read the D document again because of interest in their 92 reasons one guy couldn't pull off this dbl homicide. It made me feel physically exhausted from reading the steps required to get sweet Abby into those clothes and shoes. Her specific injury reminded me that her Feb 14 death date.

Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, of Delphi, died Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2017

Recall Ron Logan taking the reporter back to the location on his property where the yellow CS tape had been attached. Ron told the reporter the area is "pristine." We knew then that the leaves on the ground weren't disturbed much as tossing piles of leaves upon the girls. <sbm>

KK was supposed to meet Libby at MHB that fateful day but, in a strange twist of fate, the random killer, RA, took the girls off the bridge and into the woods. How bizarre is that?

Recall the MS also brought KK's case to us for it was by serendipity that they grabbed a link that the clerk of the court temporarily misfiled as open to lawyers and Greenlee was there for it.
JMO “pristine” is an interesting way to describe outside property that includes the location of a CS.

How was KK ever officially cleared? Do we know how long the link the clerk of the court temporarily misfiled it before Greenlee grabbed it? Does MS have any real life connection to anyone in Delphi?
 
@zh0r4

Thank you for finding this article!

Indiana State Police reportedly investigating evidence leak in Delphi murder case

Y'all - Read this article; it's nuts.

(Phew. After suffering through that MS episode, I thought I was nuts.)

from the above linked article:



^ good things on "girls" phone records? Did Abby have a phone?



^ so someone showing photo of blood splatter on tree trunks ... possesses "illicitly obtained exclusive evidence". *rut roh*



^ if this is the purpose of the Oct 19th hearing, it likely won't be televised or recorded. We'll see.



^ Yeah, this is what I figured the MS podcast was really about. Getting ahead of the press. They are witnesses now. Not just journalists.

JMHO: They shouldn't be part of the case they are covering yet ... there they are. For me, the real transgression is - in the public realm - on a podcast devoted to this case - MS is passing judgement on the Defense and suggesting the Judge should fire RA's counsel. Ethical, perhaps. But then again, they should have kept their opinions to themselves.




^ Oh gosh. It's true. The leaker committed suicide AFTER investigators began their inquiry. :eek:



^ That sounds like a quote from MS. Given the leaker's suicide, I'm betting on a warning. We'll see.

************

Okay, I miss this case's breaking news most of the time. But I'm pretty sure this is a pretty BIG case headline. And I was here to see it. Whatdayaknow.

I'm not sure I understand how the "girls phones" could "help" RA. Another mystery.

Q: and does Abby have a phone? or just Libby? I saw a documentary where Abby's mom said she had no phone ... but was waiting for one ... the rule was she could get one for 8th grade or something like that.

JMHO:
Feels like MS tipped the press here as well. hmmm.

I find it difficult to listen to that pair. They appear to love being centre of attention, and also have a lot to say opinion wise whilst pretending they are not sharing opinions and prattling about the integrity of their ‘journalism’.

Their love of a scoop gives them away though IMO.

Edit: And their recent coverage of the D memo and follow ups was highly selective to say the least. JMO but it sounded to me like they were trying to not bite the hand that feeds them. Disappointing.
 
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I find it difficult to listen to that pair. They appear to love being centre of attention, and also have a lot to say opinion wise whilst pretending they are not sharing opinions and prattling about the integrity of their ‘journalism’.

Their love of a scoop gives them away though IMO.

Edit: And their recent coverage of the D memo and follow ups was highly selective to say the least. JMO but it sounded to me like they were trying to not bite the hand that feeds them. Disappointing.
i find it highly ironic and joke that they are posing as protective of the girls and asking the public for restraint !
anyone forgot the KAK circus they pushed down our throats and how they acted as case spokesperson..well they still doing it
yes..what happened is only a result of sick obsessions and the dark side of online true crime coverage ...
 
I find it difficult to listen to that pair.

RSBM

They frequently have good info and discussion but they really need an editor. You generally have to skip past the first 5 mins just to get past all the intro comments and windup.

I find the podcasts are way too long and repetitive compared to the actual new content, but perhaps others appreciate the conversational approach

02c

What has been made clear on this case is that reporters involved have had a lot of info that has not been public
 
can we confirm the defence might be thrown out for this ?
also..arent they appointed by the goverment ? why are they going for all or nothing including risking reputation
 
If the D cannot manage and control sensitive information and they get rebuked for this by Gull at the hearing this week, then they've also totally shot themselves in the foot in terms of credibility to point the finger at P in a Franks hearing. If they're even still on the case at that point.

Really disappointing.
 
I don't understand how someone who claims to support the D and RA and is "blasting the prosecution" will then turn around and do something that he almost has to know has the potential to damage the D and RA.

Future consequences might not be considered if the leaker believed what was leaked supports the defence. Due to SM at this point in time public opinion appears to be taken relevance over a jury finding in a future trial, as ridiculous as that may seem. Is that because the victims were young and so this case has become like a murder mystery to peers of that age group, I don’t know. But mainly I think leakers are driven by self-gratification from the power of having access to confidential information that others are desperately seeking.

ETA I’ve never seen another case where followers of it act so indignant, literally feel slighted, toward LE for not being informed of every last detail prior to the trial. JMO
 
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Future consequences might not be considered if the leaker believed what was leaked supports the defence. Due to SM at this point in time public opinion appears to be taken relevance over a jury finding in a future trial, as ridiculous as that may seem. Is that because the victims were young and so this case has become like a murder mystery to peers of that age group, I don’t know. But mainly I think leakers are driven by self-gratification from the power of having access to confidential information that others are desperately seeking.

ETA I’ve never seen another case where followers of it act so indignant, literally feel slighted, toward LE for not being informed of every last detail prior to the trial. JMO
If that's the case, then we haven't seen the totality of the leak and maybe no damage has been done.

I've never seen anyone asking for every last detail. If LE had not been so mysterious from the very beginning, maybe we wouldn't have been desperately searching so hard to find anything. If we aren't web sleuths, then what are we?
 
<snipped & BBM>

"Legal experts consulted by FOX59 indicate that a leak of this nature, considering earlier orders from the judge, might result in either another warning from the bench or the dismissal of the attorneys and the appointment of a new legal team to represent Allen and therefore almost certainly lead to a delay in his January 8, 2024, trial date."

I wondered when that infamous Defense Memo came out if the Defense would be sanctioned or worse. It was unethical IMO, they did it in an underhanded, intentionally calculated way. Not to mention how they exploited Abby & Libby with the CS details, which didn't even relate to the Franks Hearing Motion. Disgusting IMO

I'm all for a vigorous defense of their client, but that was such an unprofessional and sleazy way to go around the gag order. I hope they get sanctioned at least, and at this point, RA probably should have new attorney's appointed because of the possible appellate issues if there were to be a guilty verdict.



MOO
 
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