IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170

[CGBSpender]

Well, through the record submitted to the Supreme Court we know the state asked for the defense attorneys to be DQd. Weirdly, and unless I'm missing something, the guy who originally disseminated the materials is out giving interviews and not under arrest. There was no benefit to defense with leaking crime scene photos. Another weird thing is that prosecution knew about the leak at least a day before the attorneys who were eventually removed and (at least on record) did not notify the court (or the other party) before the defense.

But from the legal arguments in the brief, I get the sense getting into the weeds of the leak is missing the point. Even if D's actions were negligent or grossly negligent, constitutional protections of the accused very well might outweigh that and prevent their removal. Other remedies were available to the court, such as sanctions or bar actions.

You are missing a few things...

• The interview I assume you are referring to is the MS one...and that was recorded many months ago I believe.
• According to some of the recent filings, MW retained a lawyer, that lawyer has resigned their representation, and MW was being encouraged to obtain a new lawyer.
• From the new filings it appears that the former D knew about the leak "the week of Oct 2"...they were non-specific in the exact date...but it sounds like the former D probably knew about the leak before the P was made aware by ISP on Oct 5. If you recall...MS said they reported the possible issue to both ISP and the former D.
• There were text messages disclosed between the intermediary leaker RF and the Texas leaker MR, where RF references the source of his information as, "his guy" in "Franklin, IN"...which according to the docs recently released the former D is admitting that "guy" was MW their former employee and AB's friend.

I agree, there were other remedies to the Court...but the former D also doesn't seem to have reported the leak in a timely fashion...and whether foreseeable or not, a man involved in the leak has killed himself (a decorated veteran with a family)...it's messy, and very sad, and IMO the other remedies are not sufficient given the circumstances.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

Didn't the unfortunate suicide occur following an ISP interview? I don't think it was an easy interview to experience when coupled with a man who already suffered from PTSD.

It appears ISP contacted him on the afternoon of October 10th, and he killed himself late in the evening of October 11th. It doesn't sound like he said anything to ISP...just that he wasn't talking and wanted a lawyer. Makes me think that he had a heads up from someone that ISP was probably going to be paying him a visit, and was maybe told what to say in the event that happened?

What I don't get, is that if MW had already told AB on Oct 9th that he was the source of the leak...and AB & BR revealed that to JG and NM on the afternoon of Oct 10th...why was RF distraught enough on the 11th to take his own life?

JMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

IDK. They must have a pretty lax law office if someone can just walk in past the front desk and go into the private areas where sealed trial documents are laying around.

Per MW’s interview with Yhe Murder Sheet in March ( it’s almost 90 minutes long so buckle up) he describes the office as casual, lax, not buttoned up. That AB has a pretty open door policy and they all just pop in and out of offices to collaborate. He described AB as a mess, sloppy, personal office like a tornado had gone through.
Not exactly the pentagon.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Me thinks this is another 'leak' from the Defense to get information out there on their behalf.

MOO

I hope they recognize that transparency works both ways. We are still waiting on the date and of the supposed “theft” of graphic crime scene photos.

 

[CGBSpender]

Didn't the lady who conducted the polygraphs die in an unexplained fire?

Yes! The fire that killed ISP Officer Stephanie Thompson of Monticello (and her daughter Mya that also died in the fire...the husband was not home at the time, and the other child was away at college I believe)...the cause was ruled "undetermined". Not surprising...because there was very little left to that house if you look at the photos of it. She did polygraphs on the unsolved Flora Arson case, and worked on the Delphi case I believe. Her husband is also a Judge in White County, and one or both worked as EMTs I think at some point and/or volunteer emergency responders...this is not a home that one would think didn't have working smoke detectors...the fact that they didn't get out, and the amount of destruction to the home is very odd to me. I also feel like it would be odd if that house didn't have some kind of security system installed...with a cop and a judge living in it.

Something that stood out to me about the Thompson fire...that allegedly has been reported in some other arson cases in neighboring Counties...at least one neighbor of the Thompsons reported that they woke up around the time of the fire...not because of the fire itself...but because their power had gone out. It's almost like prior to some of these fires happening...the power is being cut...security cameras are not working...garage doors are not opening...etc.

I really hope there is some kind of investigation still ongoing with ISP and/or ATF on this and other arson fires in NW and Central Indiana...there seems to be a scary pattern.
(See: ArcGIS Dashboards)

JMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Another weird thing is that prosecution knew about the leak at least a day before the attorneys who were eventually removed and (at least on record) did not notify the court (or the other party) before the defense.

RsBM
This is false. Defense knew a leak has occurred on 10/2 by their own statements on record. The person stated that the leak had originated from defense. The defense did not notify judge, law enforcement or prosecution.
On 10/5 early am they were notified by The Murder sheet that a graphic crime scene photos had been leaked.
BR reached out to NMc around 3 pm the FOLLOWING DAY and then emailed the judge around 4:13 staring the leak didn’t come from them.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

According to the document *[1] all he did was slip into a conference room, one time, and he saw the photos there in that room.And then copied them.

So he wasn't going in and out of where discovery was kept. Apparently it had been left out in an empty conference room. That seems very negligent.

And there was no mention of him being signed in as someone allowed by the court to do so.

The negligence comes from the fact that the 'sealed' discovery photos were left, unattended in an unlocked conference room. And left unattended long enough for a visitor to walk in unnoticed and snap photos, without being stopped.

It's not just that a 3rd party took photos w/out consent---it's that they were able to do so because of the negligence of the attorneys.

SBM - Yet, this has never been articulated on the record by the people accusing RA's chosen attorneys of being negligent. In addition, the protective order does not outline any security measures that must be upheld regarding the discovery docs. Personally, I could perhaps call it 'negligent' if AB didn't lock the door to the conference room when he went into his office for a meeting/phone call. But considering there have already been media leaks of these very same photos by LE, I don't see how removing the attorneys against the wishes of RA could possibly be seen as a reasonable reaction to leaving a door unlocked.

You don't just walk into a law office private sanctum and start poking around unless you are considered part of the group. JMO

SBM - My impression was that it doesn't seem that anyone on the D is arguing that MW wasn't supposed to be back there, they said he regularly visited AB at the office, but being allowed into the office building doesn't mean he was given access to the documents/conference room.

So there are dead children buried in the basement of Gacy's home, and his attorney is going to argue whether a receipt needed to show his involvement was found inside or outside his house?

And the attorneys wanted to NOT find the bodies of a dozen missing boys in the crawlspace if that receipt was actually inside the house?

SBM - The attorney at the time didn't realize what happened with the receipt, it was only something his son found while going through the files. You could also present this question to the police who lied about finding the evidence: "so you have reason to believe there are dead children buried in the basement of Gacy's home, and you are going to risk your ability to prosecute him by lying in order to get access to his home?"
Imo, if the attorney did become aware of that at the time and didn't challenge it, they would be negligent in their duty of providing a vigorous defense to their client.

MR. HENNESSEY: Okay. You mentioned the transport orders. Unfortunately, the public and I - I was not allowed in representing Mr. Baldwin, and unfortunately, the public and I aren't privy to the recording of the session outside the presence of Mr. Allen. He has a right to be present at every critical stage of the proceedings. When the Court coerces a withdrawal or quitting, that's a critical stage of the proceedings. He wasn't present. And I'd be happy to address each and every point that you think constitutes gross negligence. I've practiced criminal defense for 40 years. I understand and know in detail what these two lawyers have done on behalf of Mr. Allen has been nothing but zealous representation. So thank you - I have no expectation you'll change your mind -for allowing us to make a more complete record about your finding of gross negligence in disregard for Mr. Allen and unfairness to Mr. Baldwin and unfairness to Mr. Rozzi.

SBM... H did such a good job here imo. I found his statements in this transcript awesome.

It really is a complicated and confusing turn of events.

I am starting to wonder if it’s not all being orchestrated by design. Defense tactics to create distraction from the charges against their client.

jmo

It seems that then there is then a giant conspiracy of very experienced defense attorneys who all decided to create a controversy around JG's disregard for RA's constitutional rights for no other reason than to distract from the charges against RA, certainly not a genuine concern for justice based on the principles of their profession. The SC may be in on it too...

I hope they recognize that transparency works both ways. We are still waiting on the date and of the supposed “theft” of graphic crime scene photos.

From BR's letter it seemed that they didn't know the exact day/time but they believe they nailed it down to August based on when they had been preparing to bring the crime scene photos for depositions.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

It appears ISP contacted him on the afternoon of October 10th, and he killed himself late in the evening of October 11th. It doesn't sound like he said anything to ISP...just that he wasn't talking and wanted a lawyer. Makes me think that he had a heads up from someone that ISP was probably going to be paying him a visit, and was maybe told what to say in the event that happened?

What I don't get, is that if MW had already told AB on Oct 9th that he was the source of the leak...and AB & BR revealed that to JG and NM on the afternoon of Oct 10th...why was RF distraught enough on the 11th to take his own life?

JMO

Because he knows more than we do.

 

[sunshineray]

This is the official letter re: the leaks, which references official doc RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS VOL. 1, p. 214-220 (link below). I would love to hear what you think, it is an interesting read. JMO.

Post in thread 'IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170'
IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170

Record of Proceedings Volume 1.pdf

drive.google.com

I have commented on it previously. In a nutshell, it seems to me BR is not being 100% percent truthful with the judge. He's trying to spin many things because he knows action is probably going to be taken by the judge. He puts forth nothing wrong was really done by himself so there's no real concerns with him.

I also think his sympathy for the deceased girl's families is not genuine at all and just an afterthought throw in because he had to.

His timeline for things has a convient void as to when the D first knew about the last leak and when it was reported...because again it was really no big deal.

There are other things but basically a bunch of spinning baloney. AJMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

RsBM
This is false. Defense knew a leak has occurred on 10/2 by their own statements on record. The person stated that the leak had originated from defense. The defense did not notify judge, law enforcement or prosecution.
On 10/5 early am they were notified by The Murder sheet that a graphic crime scene photos had been leaked.
BR reached out to NMc around 3 pm the FOLLOWING DAY and then emailed the judge around 4:13 staring the leak didn’t come from them.

Could you please check your reference for the statement in red? I've seen it said "the week of 10/2" and that's a lot different.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Didn't the unfortunate suicide occur following an ISP interview? I don't think it was an easy interview to experience when coupled with a man who already suffered from PTSD. The extra stress was likely compounded and amplified, thusly, triggering panic. ATT, I believe those involved in the leak were people who wanted the Odin theory shut down. The leak was meant to destroy the Defense in every way possible. They wanted the D attorneys removed, imo. The J wants it shut down, too. The P wants the DTeam disqualified. Are they afraid of the evidence of a blood sacrifice to Odin?

No he did not give an interview. He stated he would speak to his attorney.
Also the leak was spread among defense friendly individuals that were staring the crime scene photos SUPPORTED the Odinist sacrifice sold by the defense in the memorandum.

 

[CGBSpender]

I read some of AB's opinion pieces that he wrote some years ago in the local newspaper in Franklin, Indiana. I will say....this guy is a decent writer, opinionated, and doesn't hold back. I feel like there is something else going on here that we are missing...because this guy to me does not get coerced into doing anything he doesn't want to do. After reading more about him...I feel like if AB didn't want to resign as counsel on the 19th...he wouldn't have done it...this is not someone that can be pushed around or told what to do.

The other thing I'm noticing in other filings and writings...BR and AB are both actually pretty decent writers. Makes me wonder....who the heck wrote that crappy Franks Memo...it's loaded with errors and mistakes...and it really doesn't look like documents that BR and AB have drafted in other cases. It actually doesn't really look or read like something an attorney drafted at all. Did they have shoddy associate working on that thing...or heaven help them...was MW consulting on it?

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

But isn't it negligent to leave those sealed documents and crime scene photos in an empty conference room, long enough for someone to walk in unsupervised and snap pictures?

Defense may not have leaked them but they were irresponsible with their discovery docs.


Did their violations end with various you-tube channels having crime scene photos of the girls bodies?

Did their violations end with a man killing himself?


Yes, but when setting forth a theory, are you supposed to publicly name and accuse various people who have not been declared suspects by LE?

Was the door to this conference not kept locked when nobody was in there working? OR was it open because someone was in there working when MW "slipped" in?

Was this conference room accessible from AB's office by a connecting door? So was MW inside AB's office when he "slipped" into the conference room undetected? Just where is AB's office in relation to "his" conference room?

Just some questions I'd like to know the answers to, not particularly asking you for those answers, just thinking outloud.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Amicus Brief has been filed by the Indiana Public Defender Council

Amicus Brief.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Could you please check your reference for the statement in red? I've seen it said "the week of 10/2" and that's a lot different.

I certainly will but in the interim I would like to point out that being ambiguous about the exact date and time of such important events does not support the image of being truthful. In fact I think it is an attempt to make investigative efforts more difficult.
If they had “Disclosed immediately” as they reported then there would be a receipt.

 

[sunshineray]

Didn't the unfortunate suicide occur following an ISP interview? I don't think it was an easy interview to experience when coupled with a man who already suffered from PTSD. The extra stress was likely compounded and amplified, thusly, triggering panic. ATT, I believe those involved in the leak were people who wanted the Odin theory shut down. The leak was meant to destroy the Defense in every way possible. They wanted the D attorneys removed, imo. The J wants it shut down, too. The P wants the DTeam disqualified. Are they afraid of the evidence of a blood sacrifice to Odin?

This case is dangerous and always has been terrifying. Didn't the first Judge recuse himself due to threats made against his family? Didn't the lady who conducted the polygraphs die in an unexplained fire? The horrific murders of A&L came from a demented mind or one behaving irrationally but aren't murders always conducted from a place of evil we don't easily understand?

At WS, there's an entire forum on JonBenet Ramsey that includes numerous threads of actual crime scene photos. With sensitivity and respect, we've studied the cracks in her skull, the knots tied in the rope and the damage to her little neck. Personally, I don't want to see the bodies of the two precious victims but I do want to understand their CS.

That's what RA's trial will bring...appropriately, to a jury. Some of what we want to be privy to is under seal until trial...and IF investigations still ongoing reveal possible others involved and more arrests are made. AJMO

JB's murder is officially a cold case after many many years without an arrest of a perpetrator.

 

[CGBSpender]

Ugh...hypothetical here...I feel a little sick to my stomach just thinking about this...

What if the docs were not in the conference room because they were prepping for depositions in Aug...what if the docs were in the conference room because someone was drafting that terribly long, horribly written Franks Memo? It was filed on Sept 18th....a document that long...someone had to have been working on it by August I would think.

The copy that I read was a PDF, but it had like a bunch of different commentors and weird notations...that made it look like someone accidentally filed a draft version instead of a final...then it got sealed or pulled from the CCS a few days later. Some of the commenters on the doc I read were listed by name (some not)...but the names didn't look like people working for the D. I'm still not really sure what to make of what I saw, and I don't think I have it anymore.

Wasn't there some text messages reported on between MR and RF...where RF says something about "his guy" (presumably MW) possibly wanting him to go down to Franklin over the weekend?

I've been wondering about why the photos would have leaked...what the purpose would be. Is it possible that in providing his "strategy" and "feedback" to AB on this case...MW might have sent copies of docs to RF to get his input (wasn't RF rumored to have been following the case on social media or something)? Was MW possibly consulting with persons following true crime on social media to assist him with the "strategy" and "feedback" he was giving to AB?

The more I think about it...the Franks Memo kind of reads like some conspiracies I've read online over the years. I'm worried we are going to find out that MW played a larger role in RA's defense...which if he is not a licensed attorney...might fit the bill for "gross negligence". Hypothetically.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I certainly will but in the interim I would like to point out that being ambiguous about the exact date and time of such important events does not support the image of being truthful. In fact I think it is an attempt to make investigative efforts more difficult.
If they had “Disclosed immediately” as they reported then there would be a receipt.

Thank you for checking. Don't you agree that it's important to keep what few facts we know correct?
I've heard a steady flow of what lying liars the xD's are so it's not my intent to debate that with you.

 

[duckcat]

SBM - Yet, this has never been articulated on the record by the people accusing RA's chosen attorneys of being negligent. In addition, the protective order does not outline any security measures that must be upheld regarding the discovery docs. Personally, I could perhaps call it 'negligent' if AB didn't lock the door to the conference room when he went into his office for a meeting/phone call. But considering there have already been media leaks of these very same photos by LE, I don't see how removing the attorneys against the wishes of RA could possibly be seen as a reasonable reaction to leaving a door unlocked.

SBM - My impression was that it doesn't seem that anyone on the D is arguing that MW wasn't supposed to be back there, they said he regularly visited AB at the office, but being allowed into the office building doesn't mean he was given access to the documents/conference room.

SBM - The attorney at the time didn't realize what happened with the receipt, it was only something his son found while going through the files. You could also present this question to the police who lied about finding the evidence: "so you have reason to believe there are dead children buried in the basement of Gacy's home, and you are going to risk your ability to prosecute him by lying in order to get access to his home?"
Imo, if the attorney did become aware of that at the time and didn't challenge it, they would be negligent in their duty of providing a vigorous defense to their client.

SBM... H did such a good job here imo. I found his statements in this transcript awesome.

It seems that then there is then a giant conspiracy of very experienced defense attorneys who all decided to create a controversy around JG's disregard for RA's constitutional rights for no other reason than to distract from the charges against RA, certainly not a genuine concern for justice based on the principles of their profession. The SC may be in on it too...

From BR's letter it seemed that they didn't know the exact day/time but they believe they nailed it down to August based on when they had been preparing to bring the crime scene photos for depositions.
View attachment 458888

Is August not the same month that Baldwin/Rozzi informed Liggett and Holeman that they were aware of the Odin report?

 

[duckcat]

I read some of AB's opinion pieces that he wrote some years ago in the local newspaper in Franklin, Indiana. I will say....this guy is a decent writer, opinionated, and doesn't hold back. I feel like there is something else going on here that we are missing...because this guy to me does not get coerced into doing anything he doesn't want to do. After reading more about him...I feel like if AB didn't want to resign as counsel on the 19th...he wouldn't have done it...this is not someone that can be pushed around or told what to do.

The other thing I'm noticing in other filings and writings...BR and AB are both actually pretty decent writers. Makes me wonder....who the heck wrote that crappy Franks Memo...it's loaded with errors and mistakes...and it really doesn't look like documents that BR and AB have drafted in other cases. It actually doesn't really look or read like something an attorney drafted at all. Did they have shoddy associate working on that thing...or heaven help them...was MW consulting on it?

JMO

This is an aside and a theory, i don’t know where I’m going with this, but I had a gut instant feeling that the Memo writing style reminded me of the blogger RL whom many of us loathe.

He even wrote a blog post after it was released and spent a whole section talking about how he’s been working with the defense for months.

I agree that the writing style is unusual and uncharacteristic of a lawyer. The timeline of it getting drafted and released seems related to the leak.