IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98 (Courtesy of margarita25)

Thread #99 Thread #100 Thread #101 Thread #102 Thread #103 Thread #104 Thread #105 Thread #106 Thread #107 Thread #108 Thread #109 Thread #110 Thread #111 Thread #112 Thread #113 Thread #114Thread #115 Thread #116 Thread #117 Thread #118 Thread #119 Thread #120 Thread #121 Thread #122 Thread #123 Thread #124 Thread #125 Thread #126 Thread #127 Thread #128 Thread #129 Thread #130 Thread #131 Thread #132 Thread #133 Thread #134 Thread #135 Thread #136 Thread #137 Thread #138 Thread #139 Thread #140 Thread #141 Thread #142 Thread #143 Thread #144 Thread #145 Thread #146 Thread #147 Thread #148 Thread #149 Thread #150 Thread #151 Thread 152 Thread #153 Thread #154 Thread #155 Thread #156 Thread #157 Thread #158 Thread #159 Thread #160 Thread #161 Thread #162 thread #163 Thread #164 Thread #165 Thread #166 Thread #167 Thread #168 Thread #169 Thread #170

Link to Media Maps & Timelines *No Discussion*
Link to Media Maps & Timelines #2 *No Discussion*

IMAGE Discussion Thread

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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Sillybilly]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Mod Note:
For general JBC II discussions please use his thread. In Abby & Libby’s thread, JBC II should only be discussed in the context of a possible connection to Abby & Libby’s case.
Thanks Everyone!

JBC II Thread:
IN - James Chadwell II, 42, arrested after girl 9, found in his home, Lafayette, 19 Apr 2021 #3

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[MadMcGoo]

MOD NOTE:

There has been a major cleanup on this thread tonight due to numerous TOS violations. Here are the RULES we all agreed to upon joining this site.

We have a thread dedicated to KAK HERE. If you have an update specific to any of his current charges, pending charges or news, it is to be posted on that thread. For example, dismissals, court appearances, etc.

This is an example of an article and subject matter that may be brought up for discussion on this thread. This pertains to KAK and Abby’s and Libby’s cases. Although sources such as this are approved, you personally have the right to decide how much credibility you give to them. Nevertheless, they remain approved sources here on Websleuths.

Regardless of what is posted in ANY approved source, RA’s family (to include photos) are completely off limits as of this post. They are victims. PERIOD.

If you’re going to reference or discuss a topic (even if it’s been brought up before), a link to an approved source must be provided. Otherwise, don’t mention it.

Decisions made by officials may not sit well with us, but they’re most often made for a reason.

And lastly, STAY ON TOPIC. Please and THANK YOU!

- Mad

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

 

[MadMcGoo]

MOD NOTE:

If your post begins with any of the following, IT IS LIKELY AT RISK OF BEING REMOVED, along with any of its replies. Please take the time to find an approved source link to accompany the information you post.

“I thought I read somewhere…”

“I seem to remember hearing…”

“I’m not sure if I can bring this up, but…”

“I can’t remember where I heard this…”

OR

“This is just a rumor…”

Thanks,
Mad

 

[steeltowngirl]

Justice for Libby and Abby

 

[StarryStarryNight]

This is a recent post from @TL4S from the last thread. The “reply” button was already gone, so I brought it over here to respond.

“Here's the good news, as I see it. Regardless of which attorneys or judge end up working this case, the evidence against RA is the same. Come trial, whenever that may be, and assuming there is one, the sitting jury is going to be given that evidence which is allowed through the process (suppressions, Franks, etc.). The evidence is there now, and it will be there then.

Let RA's rights be preserved, let the evidence speak for itself, and let the jury do their jobs. That day will come, I truly believe. And if LE, or the P, or the D, or the judge, did anything to jeopardize the case, let them face their repercussions. This case has issues being seen all the way to the SCOIN, so I do have faith that there are people working to assure that things are being done correctly, so that not only RA's rights are preserved, but that there isn't massive appeals issues down the road. If RA is convicted, all of what we're seeing right now is going to strengthen that conviction, I hope. If he's acquitted, let the system learn from some of the breakdowns that happened, and move forward. There's a lot of frustration (understandably) here at the moment, but I am feeling better about the case then I was at any point in the last several months. JMO.

L and A, and their families, will have to wait, which is painful and cruel, but NOTHING will change what happened to them, so I'm keeping them in a separate place in my heart while the judicial system works out its kinks. JMO.”
————————————————————-
My response:
You are a voice of reason. Thank you.

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

It appears from AB’s Criminal Defense Team website that there are three offices in Indiana: Indianapolis (Marion Co.), Franklin (Johnson Co.) and Noblesville (Hamilton Co.). Westerman’s Affidavit was sworn in Hamilton Co. Wonder from which office MW took the photos? Doesn’t matter, the responsibility for security was with the D team regardless of the office from which they were taken. Just curious is all because I haven’t seen it stated.

Our Locations

www.criminaldefenseteam.com

 

[Ward Thisperer]

It appears from AB’s Criminal Defense Team website that there are three offices in Indiana: Indianapolis (Marion Co.), Franklin (Johnson Co.) and Noblesville (Hamilton Co.). Westerman’s Affidavit was sworn in Hamilton Co. Wonder from which office MW took the photos? Doesn’t matter, the responsibility for security was with the D team regardless of the office from which they were taken. Just curious is all because I haven’t seen it stated.

Our Locations

www.criminaldefenseteam.com

Rozzi said in his letter to Gull it was from the Franklin office, which appears to be a building shared with 2 other law offices: IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170
(edited for clarity)

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

Rozzi said in his letter to Gull it was from the Franklin office, which appears to be a building shared with 2 other law offices: IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170
(edited for clarity)

Thanks, I missed that

 

[Jurisprudence]

 

[mrjitty]

I suspect the Judge has found Rozzi and Baldwin vicariously liable for MWs actions. In other words she sees this more like a situation where an official team member who had approved access from Baldwin leaked the documents and strategy.

I lean this way because MW appears to have been in the conference room with the approval of Baldwin and also Baldwin seems to have discussed strategy with him.

It’s hard to know exactly because the defence brief is self serving

 

[zh0r4]

I suspect the Judge has found Rozzi and Baldwin vicariously liable for MWs actions. In other words she sees this more like a situation where an official team member who had approved access from Baldwin leaked the documents and strategy.

I lean this way because MW appears to have been in the conference room with the approval of Baldwin and also Baldwin seems to have discussed strategy with him.

It’s hard to know exactly because the defence brief is self serving

Why would the D want to shoot themselves in the foot to compromise the case they’ve worked so hard on? Why would the D spend so much time writing the infamous Franks memo most hate so much if their plan was to sabotage the case all along? Who benefits more from the leak, the D or the P? It’s all very clear to me this hurts the defense the most-and the timing, strategically, is interesting. The P was getting out lawyered, that’s why he wanted them DQ’d. JG acting on the P’s suggestion to DQ shows an obvious, unprofessional bias. I am one hundred percent for justice for Abby and Libby, but real justice only occurs with fair fighting. This is dirty and underhanded. JMO.

 

[mrjitty]

Why would the D want to shoot themselves in the foot to compromise the case they’ve worked so hard on? Why would the D spend so much time writing the infamous Franks memo most hate so much if their plan was to sabotage the case all along? Who benefits more from the leak, the D or the P? It’s all very clear to me this hurts the defense the most-and the timing, strategically, is interesting. The P was getting out lawyered, that’s why he wanted them DQ’d. JG acting on the P’s suggestion to DQ shows an obvious, unprofessional bias. I am one hundred percent for justice for Abby and Libby, but real justice only occurs with fair fighting. This is dirty and underhanded. JMO.

Your post doesn’t really address the point I raised.

In a situation were a staff member had leaked the photos and strategy Baldwin could still be found guilty of gross negligence IMO because he is responsible vicariously for everyone under his control.

To my mind this is more analogous to a situation where a team member has leaked the info for unknown reasons rather than a situation where an outsider secretly got access.

So in other words this was not an intentional leak by Baldwin personally, rather there was an intentional leak by a quasi team member.

Baldwin is vicariously responsible.

BTL I think it will emerge that Baldwin spoke with MW about the trial strategy.

 

[mrjitty]

Another way to think about this is to imagine of MW was actually a paid consultant to the team and then leaked.

That would be an intentional leak by the defence but not by Baldwin personally. Yet obviously Baldwin and Rozzi would both be responsible for it at the end of the day

Does the situation alter if MW was an ad hoc mentor to Baldwin and Baldwin shared strategy with him?

IMO that makes it quite a bit worse for Baldwin and Rozzi as I am guessing MW had not signed any documentation on confidentiality requirements.

This is why I suspect they are correctly held liable to a negligence standard. The disclosure was intentional by the team member but not by them personally. Rather they shared case details in a manner which was negligent - negligence is judged on an objective rather than subjective standard.

 

[sunshineray]

Why would the D want to shoot themselves in the foot to compromise the case they’ve worked so hard on? Why would the D spend so much time writing the infamous Franks memo most hate so much if their plan was to sabotage the case all along? Who benefits more from the leak, the D or the P? It’s all very clear to me this hurts the defense the most-and the timing, strategically, is interesting. The P was getting out lawyered, that’s why he wanted them DQ’d. JG acting on the P’s suggestion to DQ shows an obvious, unprofessional bias. I am one hundred percent for justice for Abby and Libby, but real justice only occurs with fair fighting. This is dirty and underhanded. JMO.

I'll take a guess...maybe because their client no less than 5 times confessed to killing Libby and Abby, to both his wife and mother and was recorded. It will be used against him at trial. It will be quite powerful evidence.

Now with all this "sabotage" a fair trial is less likely as the jury pool has been tainted with stories of Odinistic ritual killings. The defense didn't have to fight at trial to get that fanciful tale admitted along with 5 named alternative killers to give reasonable doubt. The photos show the Odin sticks so they had to get leaked to back up the Franks Memo tale. Just some thoughts. AJMO

 

[duckcat]

Why would the D want to shoot themselves in the foot to compromise the case they’ve worked so hard on? Why would the D spend so much time writing the infamous Franks memo most hate so much if their plan was to sabotage the case all along? Who benefits more from the leak, the D or the P? It’s all very clear to me this hurts the defense the most-and the timing, strategically, is interesting. The P was getting out lawyered, that’s why he wanted them DQ’d. JG acting on the P’s suggestion to DQ shows an obvious, unprofessional bias. I am one hundred percent for justice for Abby and Libby, but real justice only occurs with fair fighting. This is dirty and underhanded. JMO.

The case has been nothing but confusing. But one thing that has seemed fairly consistent is questionable ethics and motives coming from Carroll County and local authorities. The defense was appointed by the state and I think there’s a good amount of cause to squint at Baldwin for that at this point. The entire county is corrupt, possible he is too? Perhaps both the P & D wanted it to leak. Where do we go from here? Is it possible we never go to trial and that was the goal?

 

[zh0r4]

Your post doesn’t really address the point I raised.

In a situation were a staff member had leaked the photos and strategy Baldwin could still be found guilty of gross negligence IMO because he is responsible vicariously for everyone under his control.

To my mind this is more analogous to a situation where a team member has leaked the info for unknown reasons rather than a situation where an outsider secretly got access.

So in other words this was not an intentional leak by Baldwin personally, rather there was an intentional leak by a quasi team member.

Baldwin is vicariously responsible.

BTL I think it will emerge that Baldwin spoke with MW about the trial strategy.

I respectfully disagree that I was not addressing your point. Everything has been documented in the recent filings (at least on the D side), including by MW himself in his own affidavit. The only side in this case withholding pertinent information, leaving the door to inaccurate speculation wide open (conveniently) is the state and JG. This is, IMO, bc the P has a shoddy case. If they were confident, as they should be, about their evidence, they would welcome these so called “conspiracies” or anything else the D presented. Instead, the P wanted the D DQ’d, because they can’t win in court fairly. MOO.

bbm

In Record of Proceedings, Vol. 1, Exhibit K, p.214-220, 10/12/2023 Letter to Court from Attorney Rozzi, discusses the leak:

“At no time did Andy ever authorize Mitch to duplicate or take physical possession of any exhibits or documentation in this case.

<snip>

On Monday, October 9, 2023, Mitch Westerman showed up at Andy's office, and asked for a few minutes of Andy's time. Andy reports that during the conversation Mitch acknowledged that he had made a mistake and in fact, took it upon himself to access Andy's conference room and photograph some exhibits that he discovered laying on the table.“

In Record of Proceedings Vol. 2, p. Exhibit U, p.33, 10/18/2023 Affidavit from Mitchell Westerman:

“Comes now Mitchell Westerman being first duly sworn, under oath, and states that the following information is within his personal knowledge and is true to the best of his knowledge:

1. I was in Attorney Andrew Baldwin's Office Building waiting to visit with Andrew. He was in his office either meeting with a client or on a telephone call with the door closed. I went into the conference room to wait.

2. I observed printed copies of photo evidence on the conference room table. I took pictures of a few of them.

3. Andrew Baldwin did not give me permission to take the photos of the printed copies, he was not present and he did not have any knowledge that I took pictures of the evidence photos.

4. I am freely and voluntarily typing and signing this affidavit on my own accord because it is the truth.”

According to MW, AB was on the phone. According to both parties, MW was not authorized to steal the photos he took. AB was on the phone in the other room. I am unsure which of the 25-ish briefs you are mentioning that is self-serving-perhaps the D memo? Or the Motion to Disqualify?

Either way, seven other lawyers have filed motions questioning the constitutional protocol of JG, and the SCOIN (Supreme Court of Indiana) has giving a deadline to JG et. al for November 16, 2023. This is a pretty serious matter that could totally destroy the case against RA if you believe he is guilty, bc it opens the door to appeal.

AJMO.

 

[zh0r4]

The case has been nothing but confusing. But one thing that has seemed fairly consistent is questionable ethics and motives coming from Carroll County and local authorities. The defense was appointed by the state and I think there’s a good amount of cause to squint at Baldwin for that at this point. The entire county is corrupt, possible he is too? Perhaps both the P & D wanted it to leak. Where do we go from here? Is it possible we never go to trial and that was the goal?

Anything is possible at this point, IMO.