IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[girlhasnoname]

Anyone taking bets on when the (eventual) trial will be if there is one?

I'll take a stab and say October of 2024

I definitely think there will be a trial, I'd be surprised if the new Defense is ready by Oct 2024, but that's what they're shooting for.

JMO

EBM: Spelling

 

[FrostedGlass]

RA didn't have the benefit of an attorney because he denied himself legal representation at his initial hearing after arrest. He said he would be hiring his own attorney.

It was weeks later when he wrote "throwing himself on the mercy of the court" that he didn't realize how expensive it was and needed a public defender appointed.

MOO

When a person is arrested, they are allowed 20 days to hire their own atty if they desire. That doesn't mean they can just do anything they want with that person during that time. Or does it?

His hearing was on Oct 28; he wrote the letter asking for representation sometime prior to Nov 7 (it could have been as early as Nov 4) and remember... he was being shuffled from ISP, to Delphi, to White Co and up to Westville during that time.

 

[girlhasnoname]

When a person is arrested, they are allowed 20 days to hire their own atty if they desire. That doesn't mean they can just do anything they want with that person during that time. Or does it?

His hearing was on Oct 28; he wrote the letter asking for representation sometime prior to Nov 7 (it could have been as early as Nov 4) and remember... he was being shuffled from ISP, to Delphi, to White Co and up to Westville during that time.

RA was in State's custody during that time without legal representation. If he waived his right to speak with LE, which I believe he did, he was in fact under the supervision of the State.

He was transferred for security reasons, so they did have RA's best interests (safety, suicide watch, etc.) in mind IMO.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

When a person is arrested, they are allowed 20 days to hire their own atty if they desire. That doesn't mean they can just do anything they want with that person during that time. Or does it?

His hearing was on Oct 28; he wrote the letter asking for representation sometime prior to Nov 7 (it could have been as early as Nov 4) and remember... he was being shuffled from ISP, to Delphi, to White Co and up to Westville during that time.

I blame the shuffling on Diener, who (IMO) wanted RA as far away as possible.

In the order to transfer Allen, Diener wrote, “This FINDING is not predicated on any acts or alleged acts of the Defendant, since arrest, rather a toxic and harmful insistence on ‘public information’ about Defendant and this case.”

Diener said the court found Allen to be in “imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others.”

He also addressed what he termed the “public bloodlust for information” in the case, calling it dangerous and saying all public servants working on the case do not feel safe or protected.

Judge Recuses Himself From Case of Slain Girls in Delphi, Indiana

n Indiana judge has recused himself from the case of two teenage girls slain near the town of Delphi, an Indiana Supreme Court spokeswoman said Thursday.

www.nbcchicago.com

 

[arielilane]

Not sure if this was already posted as I've not kept up with the thread lately. Scroll if you already know.




CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — The special judge assigned to the Delphi murders investigation has responded to the Indiana Supreme Court and said that Richard Allen’s claim of not having access to all documents related to the case has no merit and that he has not been hindered in any way from accessing them.

Previously, the original attorneys for Richard Allen — Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi — filed several motions with the Indiana Supreme Court after they were removed from the murder case by Gull in the aftermath of an evidence leak.

The lawyers asked the Supreme Court to review Gull’s handling of the case and accused her of violating public access by keeping some filings a secret along with claiming she hasn’t provided Allen with complete access to all the documents involved in the case.

Judge Gull says Richard Allen had access to Delphi documents all along and wasn’t hindered

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — The special judge assigned to the Delphi murders investigation has responded to the Indiana Supreme Court and said that Richard Allen’s claim of not having access to al…

www.tristatehomepage.com

Updated: Nov 17, 2023 / 07:19 PM CST

 

[FrostedGlass]

RA was in State's custody during that time without legal representation. If he waived his right to speak with LE, which I believe he did, he was in fact under the supervision of the State.

He was transferred for security reasons, so they did have RA's best interests (safety, suicide watch, etc.) in mind IMO.

JMO

Doesn't matter whose custody he's in, he still has rights.

Here's a screen cap of the envelope which contained his letter requesting a public defender. You'll find it in FG's doc dump.

See that date that I've circled and pointed to? That one is dated 11/04; I'm not sure if that is the postmark from Indianapolis.

I'm posting this for the record so it won't keep being repeated that he waited weeks before asking for representation. Considering there was a weekend in there, too, I think he moved pretty quickly.

 

[sunshineray]

That wasn't the unusual part. The part that was worth noting IMO was where they knew he was being shipped off to DOC several days prior to when the motion to transfer request was filed. In fact, the article updated on Oct. 30 claimed he was already there.

I'm wondering how much his failure to cooperate influenced the decision to transfer him, without the proper motions and without the benefit of an atty. Additionally, I haven't found any paperwork noting his move to White Co.

I think it just as well could have been, we're going to interview him as long as he lets us and when he lawyers up we will arrest him. Not an unusual tactic if the interviewee has given his consent to talk to LE.

Knowing the huge coverage and interest in the Delphi case I wouldn't be surprised if, at the time of RA's interview, search warrant and arrest, LE hadn't already reassessed the situation of where RA's accommodations would be and to try and keep RA out of a lower staffed and less secure County jail for a safer state facility. That may have been the mindset even before his ID as a suspect, just for safety's sake of any defendant.

A defendant's unwillingness to cooperate with LE is extremely common and I doubt the DOC move was done to punish or change his mind. It was done to secure RA and make sure he makes it to trial alive. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

When a person is arrested, they are allowed 20 days to hire their own atty if they desire. That doesn't mean they can just do anything they want with that person during that time. Or does it?

His hearing was on Oct 28; he wrote the letter asking for representation sometime prior to Nov 7 (it could have been as early as Nov 4) and remember... he was being shuffled from ISP, to Delphi, to White Co and up to Westville during that time.

If the accused safety is a grave concern, LE must act to remedy that.

 

[sunshineray]

Doesn't matter whose custody he's in, he still has rights.

Here's a screen cap of the envelope which contained his letter requesting a public defender. You'll find it in FG's doc dump.

See that date that I've circled and pointed to? That one is dated 11/04; I'm not sure if that is the postmark from Indianapolis.

I'm posting this for the record so it won't keep being repeated that he waited weeks before asking for representation. Considering there was a weekend in there, too, I think he moved pretty quickly.

View attachment 462474

Looks like it was stamped "Return to Sender, No Longer in Custody White County Jail" with "Mailed from White County Jail" stamped over that with a date of November 7th. It seems White County Jail decided not to send the letter to the court for RA because he was moved from their jail and then maybe 3 days later changed their minds and sent it to the court on the 7th?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Looks like it was stamped "Return to Sender, No Longer in Custody White County Jail" with "Mailed from White County Jail" stamped over that with a date of November 7th. It seems White County Jail decided not to send the letter to the court for RA because he was moved from their jail and then maybe 3 days later changed their minds and sent it to the court on the 7th?

Even their mailings are a mess IMO.
What we do know is he was in White Co. jail when he wrote the letter.

 

[FrostedGlass]

If the accused safety is a grave concern, LE must act to remedy that.

There was no evidence of threats to RA or by RA; the threats were perceived. Diener received threats of lawsuits if he didn't respond to requests for documents.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think it just as well could have been, we're going to interview him as long as he lets us and when he lawyers up we will arrest him. Not an unusual tactic if the interviewee has given his consent to talk to LE.

Knowing the huge coverage and interest in the Delphi case I wouldn't be surprised if, at the time of RA's interview, search warrant and arrest, LE hadn't already reassessed the situation of where RA's accommodations would be and to try and keep RA out of a lower staffed and less secure County jail for a safer state facility. That may have been the mindset even before his ID as a suspect, just for safety's sake of any defendant.

A defendant's unwillingness to cooperate with LE is extremely common and I doubt the DOC move was done to punish or change his mind. It was done to secure RA and make sure he makes it to trial alive. AJMO

What I was talking about happened after his arrest. I gave all the dates.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I realize that. I thought, that by adding it to your post, it might be less confusing to others if they knew why they were named.

I still have time to edit. Would you like me to remove it. I can make it a separate post.

Sorry, I was confused by your response, so my bad. Leave it if it’s helpful.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Just a little FYI
In Diener's order of recusal and selection of special judge, he wrote this quote below. I wondered why he determined that no judicial officer within the county may preside. Since he excluded part "A", I'm guessing that there was no other judge within Carroll Co who qualified.

"The Judge of Carroll Circuit Court has determined that the particular circumstances within the underlying case warrant recusal and dictate that special judge be appointed in this case. The Court hereby recuses itself.
Pursuant to L.R.08-CR13-19(C), this Court has determined that no judicial officer within the county may preside over this case.
This Court now Certifies this matter to the Indiana Supreme Court for appointment of special judge in compliance with L.R.08—CR13-19(B),(C).

LR08-CR13-19: SELECTION OF SPECIAL JUDGES Pg 21
A
1. Judge of the Carroll Circuit Court
2. Judge of the Carroll Superior Court

Here are the (B) and (C) parts (see above in red quote where he cites them)
B) To ensure the effective use of all judicial resources within this Administrative District, the Carroll Circuit and Carroll Superior Courts shall maintain lists of eligible judges including judges (1) regularly presiding over criminal cases within this Administrative District and (2) from contiguous counties who preside over criminal cases and shall assign a judge from said list on a rotating basis.

C) Upon certification to the Supreme Court of Indiana of cases in which no judge is eligible to serve as special judge or the particular circumstance of a case warrants selection of a special judge by the Indiana Supreme Court.(Amended effective January 1, 2018)

https://www.in.gov/courts/files/carroll-local-rules.pdf

 

[StarryStarryNight]

There was no evidence of threats to RA or by RA; the threats were perceived. Diener received threats of lawsuits if he didn't respond to requests for documents.

I think perceived threats are also a concern. LE was doing their job “reading the room” and realizing the atmosphere was threatening and maybe getting worse and it was better to be proactive than wait for something bad to happen.

 

[WelcomeToMahomes]

Transcript from the in-chambers meeting released

In Camera Hearing Transcript.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

When a person is arrested, they are allowed 20 days to hire their own atty if they desire. That doesn't mean they can just do anything they want with that person during that time. Or does it?

His hearing was on Oct 28; he wrote the letter asking for representation sometime prior to Nov 7 (it could have been as early as Nov 4) and remember... he was being shuffled from ISP, to Delphi, to White Co and up to Westville during that time.

That move is disturbing in itself imo. If you look closely at the order (and motion) you'll see that there was no imminent danger occurring with RA. The motion mentions potential safety concerns. The order was even more bizarre. Both documents are hyper-focused on a personal perception of the media and the public not on any demonstrated example of danger that had been posed to or by RA. He was already in custody there for 5 days and they couldn't provide even one documented example supporting the urgent need to move him - during a period when he was without the benefit of counsel? I'm sure his counsel if he had one would have fought this move very hard.

In his order Diener says he's in danger ... or he might be a danger... not based on a real finding but only bc the court thinks the public information surrounding the case is toxic. News doesn't get into prisons? And, not being locked up in isolation in a jail caused no issues but moving him to solitary in a prison with convicted felons is still required when he had not yet even gone to trial? The basis is flawed. Gull should have moved him imo. Even Bryan Kohberger has been managing fine in a single cell in the Latah County Jail for nearly a year now.

["The Court, being duly advised, FINDS that Defendant is an inmate awaiting trial and is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others. This FINDING is not predicated on any acts or alleged acts of the Defendant, since arrest, rather a toxic and harmful insistence on “public information” about Defendant and this case."]

The motion and order is in a bunch of different places but is also reproduced in the link below.
jmo

Judge approves state protective custody for Delphi suspect citing ‘public’s blood lust’

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Utilizing phrases such as, “blood lust,” “toxic,” and, “imminent danger,” Carroll County Circuit Judge Benjamin Diener ordered the Carroll County Sheriff to hand over custody…

fox59.com

 

[sunshineray]

There was no evidence of threats to RA or by RA; the threats were perceived. Diener received threats of lawsuits if he didn't respond to requests for documents.

We don't know everything that occured at county jail. It's not unheard of to think an accused double child murderer would be a target and county jails are smaller with less staff. Being extremely concerned for a high profile defendant like that would seem the prudent thing, AJMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Transcript from the in-chambers meeting released

In Camera Hearing Transcript.pdf

drive.google.com

I gave it a thumbs down.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Doesn't matter whose custody he's in, he still has rights.

Here's a screen cap of the envelope which contained his letter requesting a public defender. You'll find it in FG's doc dump.

See that date that I've circled and pointed to? That one is dated 11/04; I'm not sure if that is the postmark from Indianapolis.

I'm posting this for the record so it won't keep being repeated that he waited weeks before asking for representation. Considering there was a weekend in there, too, I think he moved pretty quickly.

View attachment 462474

Another problem that I hope his attorneys address. The clock was ticking on the time to hire counsel and they either made a mistake, or decided not to mail it and thought the better of it. Imagine if this was at his deadline to retain counsel and they never mailed it? Not good imo.

jmo