IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[steeltowngirl]

This makes zero sense as even his own lawyers have not mentioned KAK.

IMO

Defense used the memorandum to highlight an alleged lack of investigation of alternate suspects. They wouldn’t have wanted to use KAK, as he was thoroughly investigated.

While it seems unlikely at this point, it is not impossible that he had some involvement with the murders, that has not yet been revealed in evidence.

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Changing the charges from second to first degree murder also changes things. RA can't have ineffective counsel at this stage. He has to be assigned attorneys who are certified to handle death penalty cases. Here's a roster and guidelines:

Capital (Death Penalty) Attorney Roster

www.in.gov

Link to the roster

https://ingov.sharepoint.com/sites/PDComPortal/Lists/2022%20Death%20Penalty%20List/Website%20View.aspx?env=WebViewList

I thought the same thing the other day, but @girlhasnoname helped straighten me out. Rozzi is DP-qualified. I supposed the question is whether that applies to Rozzi as a public defender, or only to private practice.

From BR’s web page:
“He has represented clients accused of committing multiple murders and other heinous acts and is death penalty qualified in the state of Indiana.”

Logansport, Indiana Law Attorney Bradley A. Rozzi | Hillis, Hillis, & Rozzi | Logansport, Indiana Lawyer | Estates, Wills, Corporate, Real Estate Law

Logansport Lawyer Bradley A. Rozzi, partner of Hillis, Hillis, and Rozzi |Attorneys at Law :: Logansport, Indiana of Cass County :: specializing in Estates, Wills, Trusts, Corporate Law, Municipal Law, Banking, Bankruptcy and Real Estate Law

hhrlawoffice.com

 

[MollyDDD]

I thought the same thing the other day, but @girlhasnoname helped straighten me out. Rozzi is DP-qualified. I supposed the question is whether that applies to Rozzi as a public defender, or only to private practice.

From BR’s web page:
“He has represented clients accused of committing multiple murders and other heinous acts and is death penalty qualified in the state of Indiana.”

Logansport, Indiana Law Attorney Bradley A. Rozzi | Hillis, Hillis, & Rozzi | Logansport, Indiana Lawyer | Estates, Wills, Corporate, Real Estate Law

Logansport Lawyer Bradley A. Rozzi, partner of Hillis, Hillis, and Rozzi |Attorneys at Law :: Logansport, Indiana of Cass County :: specializing in Estates, Wills, Trusts, Corporate Law, Municipal Law, Banking, Bankruptcy and Real Estate Law

hhrlawoffice.com

Isn’t it true that death penalty cases are the most difficult cases to win, due to the fact the evidence must be so strong that all jurors must be unanimous? I guess with how long this case has been going on and how many different avenues LE has investigated, wouldn’t there be a greater chance of having just one juror have doubt about something? He goes Scott free if it’s not unanimous, right?

 

[katydid23]

Isn’t it true that death penalty cases are the most difficult cases to win, due to the fact the evidence must be so strong that all jurors must be unanimous? I guess with how long this case has been going on and how many different avenues LE has investigated, wouldn’t there be a greater chance of having just one juror have doubt about something? He goes Scott free if it’s not unanimous, right?

All of the murder cases in the US have to be unanimous ---not just death penalty cases.

 

[somequestions]

I think the Indiana Supreme Court made the right decisions. A defendant has a right to choose his or her counsel. That is your right. Richard Allen wants these two attorneys to represent him. If the judge in the Delphi case wants to start to set case law precedent by removing a defendant's counsel, that is her choice. She could still try to have the hearing, the one she should have had in the first place, instead of coercing the defense counsel to leave.

I keep wondering what the prosecution has as evidence against Richard Allen? What evidence does the prosecution have against Richard Allen except for an ejected unspent cartridge that toolmark examination says came from his gun? Maybe they have a solid confession on tape by Richard Allen, but does it contain any information that only the killer would know? Without knowing this information, it is hard to make conclusions on whether or not there is enough evidence to prove Richard Allen is the killer. He might very well be the killer, but is there enough evidence to prove it to a jury in a court of law?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Isn’t it true that death penalty cases are the most difficult cases to win, due to the fact the evidence must be so strong that all jurors must be unanimous? I guess with how long this case has been going on and how many different avenues LE has investigated, wouldn’t there be a greater chance of having just one juror have doubt about something? He goes Scott free if it’s not unanimous, right?

I can’t comment on whether or not DP cases are harder to bring to conviction, as I don’t know. I suspect it depends on the case. I do know the stakes are higher, with more hoops to jump through to qualify a jury, etc.

You are right, just one juror can hang a verdict. That’s true for the murder charges, regardless of whether the death penalty is sought. Need a unanimous jury to convict.

If the jury is unanimous to convict, but they cannot agree on the sentence, the judge can decide - in Indiana.

 

[katydid23]

I think the Indiana Supreme Court made the right decisions. A defendant has a right to choose his or her counsel. That is your right. Richard Allen wants these two attorneys to represent him. If the judge in the Delphi case wants to start to set case law precedent by removing a defendant's counsel, that is her choice. She could still try to have the hearing, the one she should have had in the first place, instead of coercing the defense counsel to leave.

I keep wondering what the prosecution has as evidence against Richard Allen? What evidence does the prosecution have against Richard Allen except for an ejected unspent cartridge that toolmark examination says came from his gun? Maybe they have a solid confession on tape by Richard Allen, but does it contain any information that only the killer would know? Without knowing this information, it is hard to make conclusions on whether or not there is enough evidence to prove Richard Allen is the killer. He might very well be the killer, but is there enough evidence to prove it to a jury in a court of law?

They just upgraded the Murder Charges yesterday, as opposed to downgrading them.

So I think that means they are more confident in their ability to prove their case, rather than less confident.

 

[Willow Knight]

Defense used the memorandum to highlight an alleged lack of investigation of alternate suspects. They wouldn’t have wanted to use KAK, as he was thoroughly investigated.

While it seems unlikely at this point, it is not impossible that he had some involvement with the murders, that has not yet been revealed in evidence.

jmo

My chain of thought is not that KAK was involved directly with the murders. KAK's fake AS and E CSAM accounts were the source used for advanced knowledge the girls were going to be at the trails. It feels to me that RA knew the girls were going to be there, Libby even took a pic and shared it online of them on the bridge.

 

[photographer4]

By SCOIN's order denying RA motions 2 (SCOIN removal of Gull) and 3 (SCOIN sets 70 day calendar) ... it appears they've decided they (SCOIN) isn't going use its powers to remove Gull.

We don't have the SCOIN decision, just the order so ... we only have impressions and everyone will have a slightly different impression.

That being said ... my impression is we may see SCOIN find that SCOIN is the wrong venue for motions 2 and 3 and reference the appropriate venues for those motions. I also think we'll see a decision sensitive to and underscoring RA's speedy trial right.

Practically speaking, by deciding motion 1 (reinstatement of D) as they did, SCOIN doesn't need to get involved with Motions 2 and 3. Both Motion 2 (recusal) and Motion 3 (calendar) can be raised in the lower Courts. And of course, Gull is free to recuse without either party motioning for recusal.

JMHO

Perhaps they’ll wait for the written decisions before pursuing her removal or a speed up? May indicate their odds of winning if they pursue those elsewhere?

 

[photographer4]

Jump off your post in response to if LE found more evidence. So hope there would be a witness to testify that RA knew a head of time Libby and Abby were going to be on the trails that day.

My gut tells me KAK and/or his father are somehow involved. So, I'm sure I have tunnel vision. I believe several people had access to the AShots account, and that is how RA knew the girls were going to be in that location at that time. IMO

The problem I have with KaK and his dad is that KaK lies through his teeth and his dad hasn’t been charged to date that I know of. If they found something on either that was chargeable in connection, wouldn’t they charge? If they have it and haven’t charged, why wouldn’t they? They left KAK in the wild for how long after they knew about his CsAm stuff??

 

[photographer4]

Let's not forget that 2 things have changed in the course of this disaster:

1. RA cannot use Ineffective counsel for an appeal if he is found guilty.

2. His attorneys can't claim that he is insane. He had to show that he has enough competency to fight to keep his counsel.


These 2 things are pretty impactful for the future and for the trial.

Let's get at it.

Wondering if RA is having any regrets after finding out some pretty essential things are off the table.


JMO

I don’t think they were aiming for that so much as SODDI anyhow. Has prosecution filed for medical records? Did they get an order to access them or not (I can’t remember but I think they did and were denied)?

 

[mrjitty]

At last we heard from the Frank's thing, BR & AR were still waiting on various items of disclosure. Did the covering counsel obtain that in the meantime? That might have a lot of impact on when this can go to trial and how prepared the counsel can be.

Right but they asked SCOIN to order a speedy trial so that means they feel they must be ready no? Otherwise why did they ask for it?

It's been theorised here many times that this all happened because the prosecution was not ready and Franks caught them on the hop. So if that is all true, the defence will immediately file.

 

[Megnut]

Right but they asked SCOIN to order a speedy trial so that means they feel they must be ready no? Otherwise why did they ask for it?

It's been theorised here many times that this all happened because the prosecution was not ready and Franks caught them on the hop. So if that is all true, the defence will immediately file.

IMO because our bolsters their case, giving the appearance that any other course beside reinstatement runs afoul of his right to a speedy trial, leaving him to languish unfairly and interminably in custody.

IMO there is nothing now stopping counsel from effecting delays.

We'll know soon enough. If there's a trial in the spring....

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Isn’t it true that death penalty cases are the most difficult cases to win, due to the fact the evidence must be so strong that all jurors must be unanimous? I guess with how long this case has been going on and how many different avenues LE has investigated, wouldn’t there be a greater chance of having just one juror have doubt about something? He goes Scott free if it’s not unanimous, right?

No the defendant doesn't go free if not unanimous. Here is the law on Indianas Death Penalty Rules:

<snipped>
In Indiana, the death penalty is available only for the crime of murder, and is available for murder only if the prosecution can prove the existence of at least one of 18 “aggravating circumstances” identified by the Indiana General Assembly. These circumstances are set out in the state’s death penalty statute, at IC 35-50-2-9. In order to seek the death penalty, the prosecutor must allege the existence of at least one of the aggravating circumstances set out in the statute.

If the case proceeds to trial, and the defendant is convicted of murder, the trial proceeds to a second phase to determine the appropriate penalty. The jury hears evidence regarding the existence of the alleged aggravating circumstance(s) and any mitigating circumstances – facts which would lead them to recommend a lesser sentence. They are required to return a special verdict form indicating whether they unanimously find the existence of each charged statutory aggravating circumstance beyond a reasonable doubt. They are not allowed to recommend that the defendant be sentenced to death or life without parole unless they unanimously find that the state has proved the existence of at least one alleged aggravating circumstance beyond a reasonable doubt, and also find that the aggravating circumstance(s) outweigh the mitigating circumstances. If the jury unanimously agrees on their sentencing “recommendation,” the trial court must follow it. If they cannot agree on the sentence, but unanimously agree that an aggravating circumstance exists, the Court is free to sentence the defendant to either a term of years, life without parole, or death.

https://www.in.gov/ipdc/files/Facts-about-the-death-penalty.pdf

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think the Indiana Supreme Court made the right decisions. A defendant has a right to choose his or her counsel. That is your right. Richard Allen wants these two attorneys to represent him. If the judge in the Delphi case wants to start to set case law precedent by removing a defendant's counsel, that is her choice. She could still try to have the hearing, the one she should have had in the first place, instead of coercing the defense counsel to leave.

I keep wondering what the prosecution has as evidence against Richard Allen? What evidence does the prosecution have against Richard Allen except for an ejected unspent cartridge that toolmark examination says came from his gun? Maybe they have a solid confession on tape by Richard Allen, but does it contain any information that only the killer would know? Without knowing this information, it is hard to make conclusions on whether or not there is enough evidence to prove Richard Allen is the killer. He might very well be the killer, but is there enough evidence to prove it to a jury in a court of law?

We won't know the State's evidence against RA until trial, especially with the gag order in place.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don’t think they were aiming for that so much as SODDI anyhow. Has prosecution filed for medical records? Did they get an order to access them or not (I can’t remember but I think they did and were denied)?

Yes the State requested RA's physical and mental health records from his time at Westville. Judge Gull denied the State's request, but did advise the Defense that if they continued to allude to RA's mental status in Motions that might change and open the door for the State to have access.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

I don’t think they were aiming for that so much as SODDI anyhow. Has prosecution filed for medical records? Did they get an order to access them or not (I can’t remember but I think they did and were denied)?

I think that approach is dead because they would have needed medical experts to get on board. I presume the evidence isn't there.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO because our bolsters their case, giving the appearance that any other course beside reinstatement runs afoul of his right to a speedy trial, leaving him to languish unfairly and interminably in custody.

IMO there is nothing now stopping counsel from effecting delays.

We'll know soon enough. If there's a trial in the spring....

JMO

My personal belief is they want to try to undermine the case pre-trial e.g via the Franks hearing. And possibly try to get Judge Gull to recuse before that. So maybe we won't see a speedy trial motion anytime soon.

 

[steeltowngirl]

The prosecution’s witness list per 1/18 filing.

Witnesses:
Kathy Allen
Betsy Blair
Stephen Buckley
Sarah Carbaugh
Matthew Clemans
Jeremy Clinton
Daniel C. Dulin
Josh Edwards
Kelsi German
Jay Harper
Brian Harshman
Jerry Holeman
David Vito
R.V.
B.W.
Terry Wilson
William Kauffers
Tony Liggett
Wesley McWhirter
Stephen Mullin
Melissa Oberg
A.J. Smith
A.S.

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Information-New.pdf

 

[Ravenmoon]

I don’t think they were aiming for that so much as SODDI anyhow. Has prosecution filed for medical records? Did they get an order to access them or not (I can’t remember but I think they did and were denied)?

They were denied. However, the judge warned them ( the attorneys) that if they persisted with the insanity defense, it would be fair game for the records to be released.


JMO