IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[Justice101]

Just a question: I am assuming it is not a crime to unknowingly receive sealed crime scene photos, but is a crime to either knowingly receive them or to pass them onto someone else after the fact knowing they are sealed, correct?

Regardless, it does look like the MS at least did the right thing....by reporting it to LE immediately.

 

[mrjitty]

Regardless, it does look like the MS at least did the right thing....by reporting it to LE immediately.

RSBM - ah you'd think so, but apparently this means they were in on the plan to bring down the defence team. Probably they have Odinist screensavers *



* not really

 

[mrjitty]

Something that is culturally odd to me, is how CW is out there saying RA is innocent

I get making the best arguments you can for your client, right up to the line. And also, in this instance, there is a good argument he has suffered an injustice via the removal of his attorneys. So sure - say that.

But I don't understand why you'd stake your personal reputation on his innocence, which after all, is not something counsel knows. Yet following cases like Morphew and McStay ... it just seems typical for defence attorneys to do this now. I don't really get why you'd do it in 95% of cases. The exceptions I can think of are where they had proof of factual innocence e.g, wrongful conviction cases.

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1730378003379528002?s=20

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Something that is culturally odd to me, is how CW is out there saying RA is innocent

I get making the best arguments you can for your client, right up to the line. And also, in this instance, there is a good argument he has suffered an injustice via the removal of his attorneys. So sure - say that.

But I don't understand why you'd stake your personal reputation on his innocence, which after all, is not something counsel knows. Yet following cases like Morphew and McStay ... it just seems typical for defence attorneys to do this now. I don't really get why you'd do it in 95% of cases. The exceptions I can think of are where they had proof of factual innocence e.g, wrongful conviction cases.

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1730378003379528002?s=20

Me either. I give it as much weight as the phrase “We do not see any immediate threat to the community “ when uttered by LE.
I have respect for both professions but sometimes they say certain things without believing them. IMO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Same thing has crossed my mind several times. Went back through the threads in this case to refresh my mind on RL and KAK. It is my opinion that many statements made by LE in the early days would have been brought up at trial. Especially statements, search warrants, etc regarding RL by LE.

I personally would put much interest into a testimony by KAK. Strongly hope the trial could explain how this AS (shots) account worked. Specifically if LE could trace who, when, where had access to the knowledge Abby and Libby would be on that bridge at that time.

Didn't RA live in the same town as the K's at one time? RA isn't the same age bracket as KAK, however he would be around the same age as a parent of KAK.

Very interesting the XD did not focus on KAK and/or RL, maybe it was yet to come? Or maybe the XD didn't want focus on KK or RL?

"Didn't RA live in the same town as the K's at one time?" - yes, according to an interview on Murder Sheet with a former coworker, RA worked at the CVS just a couple streets down from KAK/TK's house in Peru.

Personally I am not at all ready to believe that the AS account was simply a coincidence. If there is any evidence of a connection between RA and this account or the Klines, or anything suggesting he was seeking CSAM, my current skepticism that he is the right guy would be lessened quite a bit.

I have also been wondering if there is any connection between the AS account/KAK/TK and EF and JM:

Something that is culturally odd to me, is how CW is out there saying RA is innocent

I get making the best arguments you can for your client, right up to the line. And also, in this instance, there is a good argument he has suffered an injustice via the removal of his attorneys. So sure - say that.

But I don't understand why you'd stake your personal reputation on his innocence, which after all, is not something counsel knows. Yet following cases like Morphew and McStay ... it just seems typical for defence attorneys to do this now. I don't really get why you'd do it in 95% of cases. The exceptions I can think of are where they had proof of factual innocence e.g, wrongful conviction cases.

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1730378003379528002?s=20

Where does she say that RA is innocent?

 

[Jurisprudence]

Just a question: I am assuming it is not a crime to unknowingly receive sealed crime scene photos, but is a crime to either knowingly receive them or to pass them onto someone else after the fact knowing they are sealed, correct?

Regardless, it does look like the MS at least did the right thing....by reporting it to LE immediately.

I think "stolen" would be the key here. If someone knowingly receives stolen property they could be charged. If they were actually in a conspiracy to have the property taken for a price, if they paid for the pics/paid the conspirators to take it, that would be more serious imo. Sealed property, unless you are under control of the court by a gag order for which they can issue contempt, I don't think they can do anything much about it.

jmo

 

[Ward Thisperer]

On Wish-TV Kevin Greenlee states “we hear some people behind the scenes expressing concern that this is damaging the case against [B&R’s] one-time client Richard Allen.”

 

[mrjitty]

Me either. I give it as much weight as the phrase “We do not see any immediate threat to the community “ when uttered by LE.
I have respect for both professions but sometimes they say certain things without believing them.

I mean they clearly often don't believe it.

Where does she say that RA is innocent?

RSBM

If Rick Allen gets justice, it will be because he has a community of people calling for it. Not just for him, but for the girls, too. They only get justice when those evil people that did this are punished.

Bolded. I take this as an express endorsement of the defence case.
From the tweet i posted.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Something that is culturally odd to me, is how CW is out there saying RA is innocent

I get making the best arguments you can for your client, right up to the line. And also, in this instance, there is a good argument he has suffered an injustice via the removal of his attorneys. So sure - say that.

But I don't understand why you'd stake your personal reputation on his innocence, which after all, is not something counsel knows. Yet following cases like Morphew and McStay ... it just seems typical for defence attorneys to do this now. I don't really get why you'd do it in 95% of cases. The exceptions I can think of are where they had proof of factual innocence e.g, wrongful conviction cases.

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1730378003379528002?s=20

CW has been posting on X/Twitter the entire time which I find highly unprofessional. Not a good look for an attorney in an ongoing case.

EBM: To add is she not covered by the gag order as well?

JMO

 

[Justice101]

RSBM - ah you'd think so, but apparently this means they were in on the plan to bring down the defence team. Probably they have Odinist screensavers *



* not really

Hahahaha! Good one

 

[Ward Thisperer]

RSBM


Bolded. I take this as an express endorsement of the defence case.
From the tweet i posted.

SBM
I took it as her expressing her view of justice requiring a fair trial. If he is guilty, justice for RA would be a conviction.

https://x.com/wienekelo/status/1721901619581985047

I don’t think saying “those evil people that did this” means the Odinists, considering the state also expressed belief in multiple offenders. I do think she is signaling she isn’t sure he is guilty but I don’t think she is staking her reputation on an assertion of his innocence, she’s leaving room in her statements for his guilt imo.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Update for Westerman; Michael Kyle is his atty
Case # 41D03-2311-CM-001119

12/04/2023	Appearance Filed Appearance For Party: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Waiver of Initial Hearing Filed Motion to Waive Initial Hearing Party: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Jury Trial Demand Filed Motion for Trial by Jury Filed By: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Motion Filed Request for Discovery Filed By: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Motion for Evidence Rule 404(b) Disclosure 404(b) and 405 Notice Filed By: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/05/2023	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Jury Trial Demand Filed ---- 12/4/2023 : Lindsey Holden-Kay; Michael J Kyle
12/05/2023	Order Issued Order on Request for in Court Video Recorder entered. Request is DENIED at this time.cd Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B.
12/07/2023	Initial Hearing Session: 12/07/2023 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Update for Westerman; Michael Kyle is his atty
Case # 41D03-2311-CM-001119

12/04/2023	Appearance Filed Appearance For Party: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Waiver of Initial Hearing Filed Motion to Waive Initial Hearing Party: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Jury Trial Demand Filed Motion for Trial by Jury Filed By: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Motion Filed Request for Discovery Filed By: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/04/2023	Motion for Evidence Rule 404(b) Disclosure 404(b) and 405 Notice Filed By: Westerman, Mitchell Thomas
12/05/2023	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Jury Trial Demand Filed ---- 12/4/2023 : Lindsey Holden-Kay; Michael J Kyle
12/05/2023	Order Issued Order on Request for in Court Video Recorder entered. Request is DENIED at this time.cd Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B.
12/07/2023	Initial Hearing Session: 12/07/2023 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B.

Request for video is denied

Rules 404 & 405

• Character Evidence (R. 404-405) DEFINITION: Evidence that tends to show a person's good or bad qualities. The most common kind is evidence of a criminal record. RULE: Character evidence is generally not admissible EXCEPTIONS: 1. Impeachment. Character for untruthfulness and specific criminal acts are admissible to impeach (R. 608-609).

 

[EOA]

As I live in Indiana but know many people on this thread do not, I thought I'd pass along some info on mileage/distance from applicable cities and towns of key places - as on occasion I'll read a post (e.g. whether B&R shared same war room) which can mislead when not knowing how far apart some of these things are.

To start, Indianapolis is in the very center of the state (where the AG Todd Rokita's office is as well as the SCOIN). The only noteworthy-to-this-case place south of Indianapolis is AB's office in Franklin which is a far-south suburb of Indianapolis. Franklin is the outlier, farthest from pretty much all other spots.

-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) TO WESTFIELD (MW was described in MSM as living in Westfield) = 45-48 miles depending on route/traffic and 51-61 minutes (seems unlikely MW would often be dropping by to say Hi or otherwise in the area often to bounce ideas off of, unless he travels the state for his data ethics primary job. Westfield is a far-north suburb of Indianapolis and not far (15-ish minutes) from another north-suburb Fishers where RF supposedly lived
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) TO LOGANSPORT (BR's office) = 102-106 miles and 1hr 53 mins -2hrs 1min. Logansport is approx halfway between Indpls in the center straight north toward the Michigan line. (IMO we don't know if the 2 XD traded visits to each other's office or met in the middle. Likewise IMO it would be interesting to know if copies were made such that each of B&R had photos and discovery in each's possession)
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to DELPHI (NM's office and/or CS) = 99-102 miles and approx 1hr 54 mins. Delphi is about as far north as Logansport but more westerly. Delphi would be considered the mid-NW part of the state.
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to WESTVILLE (the prison) = approx 173 miles and approx 3hrs 3 mins (definitely a bit far for counsel to see defendant very often). Westville is in the far northwest part of Indiana not far from both Chicago and the Michigan state line.
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to FORT WAYNE (JG's courtroom) = approx 152 miles and approx 2hrs 29mins. FtW is in the far northeast part of the state. Note the new D hails from FtW alongside JG.

-- LOGANSPORT TO DELPHI = approx 23 miles and approx 29 minutes
-- LOGANSPORT TO WESTVILLE = approx 75 miles and approx 1hr 27mins
-- LOGANSPORT TO FORT WAYNE = approx 78 miles and approx 1hr 42mins
BR in Logansport was certainly more centrally located to all other places than was AB, though still not as close as I picture most sleuthers here are expecting.

-- DELPHI TO WESTVILLE = approx 76 miles and approx 1hr 33mins (somewhat far for KA/relatives to visit, though IMO we don't really know where everyone is living currently)
-- DELPHI TO FORT WAYNE = approx 103 miles and approx 1hr 58mins (a long drive for all of the media/LE witnesses, locals to drive for the hearing only to be told of the "unexpected turn of events")

-- WESTVILLE TO FORT WAYNE = approx 109 miles and approx 2hrs 11 mins (to transport RA one-way to JG's court).

Feel free to ask if there are any other geographic-type questions or other things a somewhat "local" might know..

 

[Cyber sleuth]

As I live in Indiana but know many people on this thread do not, I thought I'd pass along some info on mileage/distance from applicable cities and towns of key places - as on occasion I'll read a post (e.g. whether B&R shared same war room) which can mislead when not knowing how far apart some of these things are.

To start, Indianapolis is in the very center of the state (where the AG Todd Rokita's office is as well as the SCOIN). The only noteworthy-to-this-case place south of Indianapolis is AB's office in Franklin which is a far-south suburb of Indianapolis. Franklin is the outlier, farthest from pretty much all other spots.

-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) TO WESTFIELD (MW was described in MSM as living in Westfield) = 45-48 miles depending on route/traffic and 51-61 minutes (seems unlikely MW would often be dropping by to say Hi or otherwise in the area often to bounce ideas off of, unless he travels the state for his data ethics primary job. Westfield is a far-north suburb of Indianapolis and not far (15-ish minutes) from another north-suburb Fishers where RF supposedly lived
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) TO LOGANSPORT (BR's office) = 102-106 miles and 1hr 53 mins -2hrs 1min. Logansport is approx halfway between Indpls in the center straight north toward the Michigan line. (IMO we don't know if the 2 XD traded visits to each other's office or met in the middle. Likewise IMO it would be interesting to know if copies were made such that each of B&R had photos and discovery in each's possession)
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to DELPHI (NM's office and/or CS) = 99-102 miles and approx 1hr 54 mins. Delphi is about as far north as Logansport but more westerly. Delphi would be considered the mid-NW part of the state.
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to WESTVILLE (the prison) = approx 173 miles and approx 3hrs 3 mins (definitely a bit far for counsel to see defendant very often). Westville is in the far northwest part of Indiana not far from both Chicago and the Michigan state line.
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to FORT WAYNE (JG's courtroom) = approx 152 miles and approx 2hrs 29mins. FtW is in the far northeast part of the state. Note the new D hails from FtW alongside JG.

-- LOGANSPORT TO DELPHI = approx 23 miles and approx 29 minutes
-- LOGANSPORT TO WESTVILLE = approx 75 miles and approx 1hr 27mins
-- LOGANSPORT TO FORT WAYNE = approx 78 miles and approx 1hr 42mins
BR in Logansport was certainly more centrally located to all other places than was AB, though still not as close as I picture most sleuthers here are expecting.

-- DELPHI TO WESTVILLE = approx 76 miles and approx 1hr 33mins (somewhat far for KA/relatives to visit, though IMO we don't really know where everyone is living currently)
-- DELPHI TO FORT WAYNE = approx 103 miles and approx 1hr 58mins (a long drive for all of the media/LE witnesses, locals to drive for the hearing only to be told of the "unexpected turn of events")

-- WESTVILLE TO FORT WAYNE = approx 109 miles and approx 2hrs 11 mins (to transport RA one-way to JG's court).

Feel free to ask if there are any other geographic-type questions or other things a somewhat "local" might know..

This is so helpful thank you!

 

[Marzipan]

CW has been posting on X/Twitter the entire time which I find highly unprofessional. Not a good look for an attorney in an ongoing case.

EBM: To add is she not covered by the gag order as well?

JMO

Maybe she’s posting on here too. I mean, we’re all anonymous in this space (except Ken ).

 

[sunshineray]

Here's a court update for anyone interested in MW's case:

11/29/2023	Judicial Notice of Media Request for Cameras in the Court Johnson County, Indiana Camera in Court Request Form entered.cd Notice Date: 11/29/2023
12/07/2023	Initial Hearing Session:12/07/2023 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B.

The hearing is on Thursday, has the judge ruled on the camera request?

 

[sunshineray]

As I live in Indiana but know many people on this thread do not, I thought I'd pass along some info on mileage/distance from applicable cities and towns of key places - as on occasion I'll read a post (e.g. whether B&R shared same war room) which can mislead when not knowing how far apart some of these things are.

To start, Indianapolis is in the very center of the state (where the AG Todd Rokita's office is as well as the SCOIN). The only noteworthy-to-this-case place south of Indianapolis is AB's office in Franklin which is a far-south suburb of Indianapolis. Franklin is the outlier, farthest from pretty much all other spots.

-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) TO WESTFIELD (MW was described in MSM as living in Westfield) = 45-48 miles depending on route/traffic and 51-61 minutes (seems unlikely MW would often be dropping by to say Hi or otherwise in the area often to bounce ideas off of, unless he travels the state for his data ethics primary job. Westfield is a far-north suburb of Indianapolis and not far (15-ish minutes) from another north-suburb Fishers where RF supposedly lived
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) TO LOGANSPORT (BR's office) = 102-106 miles and 1hr 53 mins -2hrs 1min. Logansport is approx halfway between Indpls in the center straight north toward the Michigan line. (IMO we don't know if the 2 XD traded visits to each other's office or met in the middle. Likewise IMO it would be interesting to know if copies were made such that each of B&R had photos and discovery in each's possession)
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to DELPHI (NM's office and/or CS) = 99-102 miles and approx 1hr 54 mins. Delphi is about as far north as Logansport but more westerly. Delphi would be considered the mid-NW part of the state.
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to WESTVILLE (the prison) = approx 173 miles and approx 3hrs 3 mins (definitely a bit far for counsel to see defendant very often). Westville is in the far northwest part of Indiana not far from both Chicago and the Michigan state line.
-- FRANKLIN (AB's office) to FORT WAYNE (JG's courtroom) = approx 152 miles and approx 2hrs 29mins. FtW is in the far northeast part of the state. Note the new D hails from FtW alongside JG.

-- LOGANSPORT TO DELPHI = approx 23 miles and approx 29 minutes
-- LOGANSPORT TO WESTVILLE = approx 75 miles and approx 1hr 27mins
-- LOGANSPORT TO FORT WAYNE = approx 78 miles and approx 1hr 42mins
BR in Logansport was certainly more centrally located to all other places than was AB, though still not as close as I picture most sleuthers here are expecting.

-- DELPHI TO WESTVILLE = approx 76 miles and approx 1hr 33mins (somewhat far for KA/relatives to visit, though IMO we don't really know where everyone is living currently)
-- DELPHI TO FORT WAYNE = approx 103 miles and approx 1hr 58mins (a long drive for all of the media/LE witnesses, locals to drive for the hearing only to be told of the "unexpected turn of events")

-- WESTVILLE TO FORT WAYNE = approx 109 miles and approx 2hrs 11 mins (to transport RA one-way to JG's court).

Feel free to ask if there are any other geographic-type questions or other things a somewhat "local" might know..

My goodness why did two lawyers so far apart in location every get grouped together as co-council on this case? They couldn't find another approved lawyer in the Indy area to pair up with AB...or visa versa with BR? BR would have to have copied discovery at his office? Either that or they're keeping it in the cloud to access? That would seem risky but then again discovery was stolen off AB's conference table. Wasn't there also reports that RF (or someone else?) got a flash drive full of discovery?

 

[sunshineray]

Request for video is denied

Rules 404 & 405

• Character Evidence (R. 404-405) DEFINITION: Evidence that tends to show a person's good or bad qualities. The most common kind is evidence of a criminal record. RULE: Character evidence is generally not admissible EXCEPTIONS: 1. Impeachment. Character for untruthfulness and specific criminal acts are admissible to impeach (R. 608-609).

Am I reading all this right? Has MW pled not guilty?

 

[FrostedGlass]

This waiting is getting pretty frustrating. I expected the D to do something by now.
Are they just waiting for the SC to make their decisions?
There are still motions to be heard no matter what the decisions are, aren't there?

Meanwhile, the months in prison drag on for RA; maybe he'll eventually totally break and make a better confession.