IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

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I guess I'm a little confused about the distinction you're suggesting... I'll share my thoughts:

IMO, The motion says what it means. None of the electronic data described links RA to the crime scene. The victims ARE the primary subject of the crime scene. The reference is an LE deposition under oath recorded and attached in the Exhibits. I see no reason to think the use of the word "crime scene" excludes RA links to the victims at the crime scene or RA links to the victims prior to the crime.

The P is under obligation to share evidence with the D; these parties are working off the same facts. Furthermore, the P filed a response to this motion with no objection to this statement re: digital evidence.

Keep in mind that both P and D have the ethical, professional and practical burden of presenting information presented in a motion to the court that is accurate and truthful; submitting misrepresentations/false statements in motions to the Court have serious consequences.

Reiterating: Possession of CSAM is a crime; would the P sandbag evidence of RA CSAM activity? Not bring that charge? IMO, were this the case, P would bring that charge and share evidence to bring pressure for a plea.

JMHO
I am suggesting that CSAM may have been involved in motive. We already know that Libby was being contacted by a catfisher.

I quoted from the FM, which didn’t quote from the deposition, but provided a paraphrase of one portion.

I have not seen all of the evidence. We will see that at trial. Or at least what can be proven in court.

jmo
 
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I am suggesting that CSAM may have been involved in motive. We already know that Libby was being contacted by a catfisher.

I quoted from the FM, which didn’t quote from the deposition, but provided a paraphrase of one portion.

I have not seen all of the evidence. We will see that at trial. Or at least what can be proven in court.

jmo

That catfisher has been throughly investigated and no charges brought.

Only one man charged with these crimes!
 
KAK who was partially behind the Anthony Shots account.
We know that the A Shots user made contact. We don’t yet know of other contacts, but they may exist.

Circling back to the point, I’m suggesting CSAM could be involved as a motive. I have also said that the idea to attack may have just popped into the killer‘s head that day.

What do you think might be a motive for the murders?
 
We know that the A Shots user made contact. We don’t yet know of other contacts, but they may exist.

Circling back to the point, I’m suggesting CSAM could be involved as a motive. I have also said that the idea to attack may have just popped into the killer‘s head that day.

What do you think might be a motive for the murders?


I believe RA acted alone and no idea on motive as I change my mind daily but Libby certainly looked like his daughter so I wonder if something that day triggered him. This is also another reason he stayed under the radar as he acted alone that day.

Moo
 
We know that the A Shots user made contact. We don’t yet know of other contacts, but they may exist.

Circling back to the point, I’m suggesting CSAM could be involved as a motive. I have also said that the idea to attack may have just popped into the killer‘s head that day.

What do you think might be a motive for the murders?
I don't want to allow discussion of CSAM rings into my headspace but I imagine there's an ugly dance in that netherworld as the skanky parties slither around online and find one another. They must have their own vetting system. Their own code. Revealing themselves guardedly....

I should think that complicity, proof and blackmail are the currency.

You can't invite just anyone in .... so easiest way? Sexplotation. Sexploitation on steroids. Lure people in in such a way they can't get out. Victims and perps both.

Maybe RA's issue or desire was not a 1:1 ratio between him and those particular girls. Maybe RA was indebted to someone. And not in good way. Pure speculation but someone like KAK who managed to capitalize on his perversions might have dirt on RA. Knows who he is, knows where he works. Maybe KAK has pictures -- and then comes the threat -- I'll send them to your wife or your boss or your child's school... unless.....

I bet KAK had access to a number of men he could ruin. Or use.

As in, to Guy I, I'll give you a victim's address if you get me pics. Guy II, I can get you pics, but I'm going to need you to.... pyramid scene of the ugliest kind.

Maybe RA was only supposed to deliver the girls....or he was bring blackmailed very badly, couldn't pay up, and the price went way up.

Motive: I think KAK found a way to exploit pedos and monetize it, feeding his own disordered passions all the while. And I think RA was knee deep in that world.

IMO he murdered those poor girls so no one would ever know what a sick, twisted man he was. If he didn't kill them, someone was going to out him. (The pretense of) his reputation (as an upstanding family) was more important to him than the lives of A and L.

All for naught too. Because his ugly secrets IMO are going to be laid bare.

JMOO
 
That RA has this counsel circus swirling about him makes me wonder why. I believe he'd responsible for their deaths but I wonder if these attorneys believe him also to be a victim.

Hear me out. Sexplotation 101. Catfish of some sort gets a teenager to send x-rated pics. Teen thinks she's talking to another teen. Catfish says he's going to send the pictures to her principal unless she sends him x-rated pics of a couple friends. In fear or shame, threat of embarrassment the minor complies. Now they're breaking laws.... but also victims.

Perhaps his attorneys think there'll be a case to be made whereby RA is somehow made out to be a relatable figure who was blackmailed and felt he had no other choice.

Don't get me wrong. I have zero sympathy, zero mercy. I'm merely postulating what his defense might be strategizing.

JMO
 
I don't want to allow discussion of CSAM rings into my headspace but I imagine there's an ugly dance in that netherworld as the skanky parties slither around online and find one another. They must have their own vetting system. Their own code. Revealing themselves guardedly....

I should think that complicity, proof and blackmail are the currency.

You can't invite just anyone in .... so easiest way? Sexplotation. Sexploitation on steroids. Lure people in in such a way they can't get out. Victims and perps both.

Maybe RA's issue or desire was not a 1:1 ratio between him and those particular girls. Maybe RA was indebted to someone. And not in good way. Pure speculation but someone like KAK who managed to capitalize on his perversions might have dirt on RA. Knows who he is, knows where he works. Maybe KAK has pictures -- and then comes the threat -- I'll send them to your wife or your boss or your child's school... unless.....

I bet KAK had access to a number of men he could ruin. Or use.

As in, to Guy I, I'll give you a victim's address if you get me pics. Guy II, I can get you pics, but I'm going to need you to.... pyramid scene of the ugliest kind.

Maybe RA was only supposed to deliver the girls....or he was bring blackmailed very badly, couldn't pay up, and the price went way up.

Motive: I think KAK found a way to exploit pedos and monetize it, feeding his own disordered passions all the while. And I think RA was knee deep in that world.

IMO he murdered those poor girls so no one would ever know what a sick, twisted man he was. If he didn't kill them, someone was going to out him. (The pretense of) his reputation (as an upstanding family) was more important to him than the lives of A and L.

All for naught too. Because his ugly secrets IMO are going to be laid bare.

JMOO
Very interesting theory, or would that be a “conspiracy?” :)

It is a dark and disturbing world these vile people live in and I concede that all you suspect could be true, I just don’t think it’s true of RA. RA is the scapegoat, IMHO. There are very dark forces involved in this case, no doubt in my mind. What happened to those poor girls couldn’t be much darker. Unfortunately, the ones involved also possess enough power to send a man, not yet convicted, to a prison where he is being “guarded” by questionable people, in my mind at least. While nothing presented thus far has linked RA to the girls, there’s plenty out “there” that links quite a few characters to each other that people seem to want to ignore. What R & B did was to expose some of that and I might add there’s more they didn’t. Yet. All MOO, of course.

ETA - I have to wonder if MW was being blackmailed???
 
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While there seems to be an obvious sexual component to the motive, even DC stated in the April 2019 PC that "this was about control to you (killer)." He took them away from the bridge by force, one or both girls were undressed, they were murdered, moved, staged, with signatures left behind, and the FBI agent in the RL affidavit submitted that photos were likely taken to memorialize. IMO, it just sounds like the foundation for a lot of what we've heard is built off of a profile, IMO. I would be very interested to see how well RA fits that profile when his life and personality is better understood. Honestly, the public knowledge of RA, at this point, is a big void. JMO.
 
I tried asking this question before, but poorly.


This is all just my thought and possible opinion:

I want try to be a bit more clear, but still don't know if it will make sense:


I have a question for anyone that knows how the Indiana legal system works.

Please bear with me:
DC said that there are a lot of tentacles or moving parts in this case. I have always wondered what that might mean.

Is it possible that RA is somehow tangled in the CSAM web that was uncovered at the time that the whole Anthony Shots profile was discovered but has yet to be formally changed because of all that has to still be connected? And if that is at all possible, would that be a separate charge and a separate trial for Richard Allen?

Is it also possible that a family member or close friend, etc has turned state's witness to avoid charges because they helped him cover it up ( I am not in any way suggesting that they took part in the behavior, but perhaps had no idea initially- but maybe did stumble across something and was scared to be named a potential accessory)

Thank you for anyone that can answer!
 
This is a good explanation of the new amended charges, IMO.

Reviewing New Charges in Delphi Case — Wieneke Law Office, LLC
Thank you for posting this!

RSBM

“Thirty minutes before the Indiana Supreme Court began hearing oral arguments in Richard Allen’s second original action on the removal of Attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rozzi, the Carroll County Prosecutor requested to amend the charging information.

<snip>

In Indiana, we have both knowing/intentional murder and felony murder. Unlike other states, Indiana treats these two types of murder the same. They are defined under the same statute and carry the same potential penalties (45-65 years in prison).

<snip>

Allen was not originally charged with knowing/intentional murder. Rather, he was originally charged under Subsection (2) of Indiana’s murder statute. To prove felony murder under that subsection, the State must prove that a defendant killed another person while committing, or attempting to commit, one of the enumerated offenses. Kidnapping is one of those offenses.

The original two charges against Allen that were filed in late October 2022 were for felony murder of Victims 1 and 2, where the underlying felony was kidnapping. To obtain a conviction for felony murder, the prosecutor does not have to prove that the defendant knowingly or intentionally killed the victim he kidnapped. Rather, the prosecutor need only prove that the defendant knowingly kidnapped (or attempted to kidnap) the victim and that, during the kidnapping or attempted kidnapping, the victim died. Essentially, the intent to commit the kidnapping is also used to satisfy the intent to commit the murder.

The amended charging information for Counts 1 and 2 merely adds the theory of accomplice liability to original felony murder counts. This is a theory of liability, not an essential element of a criminal offense. So it did not need to be added to the charging information. When the original charges of felony murder were filed against Richard Allen, under Indiana law he could be prosecuted for those offenses as either the principal or as an accomplice.

Counts 3-6 of the amended charging information are new. Counts 3 and 4 allege that Richard Allen knowingly or intentionally killed Victims 1 and 2. These two counts also include a citation to Indiana’s accomplice liability statute. So Allen could be found guilty of these offenses if he is proven to be the actual killer, or merely an accomplice to the actual killer.
Counts 5 and 6 allege that Richard Allen, while armed with a handgun, knowingly or intentionally removed Victims 1 and 2 from the bridge to a wooded area through the use of force or threat of force. These kidnapping offenses are Level 3 felonies, which carries a range of 3-16 years in prison. Counts 5 and 6 include a citation to Indiana’s accomplice liability statute. So Allen could be found guilty of these offenses if he is proven to be the one who kidnapped the victims, or if he merely aided, induced, or caused another to kidnap the victims.

On the original counts of felony murder, the State was required to prove both the kidnapping and the killing in order to carry its burden under the felony murder statute. And the prosecutor is not required to plead accomplice liability in the charging information.

<snip>

First, the kidnapping counts. Without the amended charges, theoretically the jury could find that Allen kidnapped the victims but played no role in their murder. Absent Counts 5 and 6, Allen would walk free. The State could be increasing its chances of getting some convictions, rather than none at all.

As for the murder counts themselves, this is more puzzling. One idea is to increase the maximum possible sentence Allen could receive if convicted. By separating the murder and the kidnapping of each victim into separate counts, the two counts for each victim could be “stacked,” or run consecutively. Instead of a maximum possible sentence of 65 years for felony murder, Allen could face up to 81 years in prison. Amending the charging information for this reason seems implausible, however. Allen is facing 45-65 years for each victim if he is convicted of felony murder. That’s 90-130 years in prison, as the trial court could stack the sentences since there are two victims. Given Allen’s age, this is a de facto life sentence. Seeking a longer sentence is pointless.

Many have theorized this request to amend the charging information was done to file a notice of intent to seek the death penalty against Richard Allen. This, too, seems unlikely. To seek the death penalty in Indiana, a prosecutor must allege and prove the existence of one or more aggravating circumstances. The existence of at least one aggravating circumstance has been present since the inception of this case. If the State intended to seek the death penalty, why now and not earlier? This theory seems far-fetched. The timing of the filing would certainly raise suspicion. Plus, if the prosecutor wished to seek the death penalty, he likely would have filed the notice of intent when he requested to amend the charges.

My best guess as to why the amendment? These charges likely should have been filed at the beginning of this case, and this amendment corrects that oversight.”

Source:
 
I tried asking this question before, but poorly.


This is all just my thought and possible opinion:

I want try to be a bit more clear, but still don't know if it will make sense:


I have a question for anyone that knows how the Indiana legal system works.

Please bear with me:
DC said that there are a lot of tentacles or moving parts in this case. I have always wondered what that might mean.

Is it possible that RA is somehow tangled in the CSAM web that was uncovered at the time that the whole Anthony Shots profile was discovered but has yet to be formally changed because of all that has to still be connected? And if that is at all possible, would that be a separate charge and a separate trial for Richard Allen?

Is it also possible that a family member or close friend, etc has turned state's witness to avoid charges because they helped him cover it up ( I am not in any way suggesting that they took part in the behavior, but perhaps had no idea initially- but maybe did stumble across something and was scared to be named a potential accessory)

Thank you for anyone that can answer!
@Ravenmoon

Not an Indiana lawyer, but I see a problem with that scenario right off the bat.

Here is a link to the Indiana statute regarding child exploitation (including CSAM): 2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 4. Sex Crimes :: 35-42-4-4. Child Exploitation; Possession of Child *advertiser censored*; Exemptions; Defenses

This statute classifies child exploitation as either a Class 4, Class 5, or Class 6 felony, depending on particulars of the offense. Indiana requires that Class 4, 5, or 6 offenses must be filed within 5 years. Abby and Libby were killed in 2017, so any CSAM offenses from then or prior would be time barred by statute.

See: 2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 41. Substantive Criminal Provisions :: Chapter 4. Standard of Proof and Bars to Prosecution :: 35-41-4-2. Periods of Limitation

Even if such an offense were not time barred, it would be unlikely that such would be tried at the same time, as it could confuse issues for a jury IMO. I hope this is helpful!
 
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Are you basing that off of the docket entry that says "Amended Pleading Filed/Information New"? Because that's not what that means.

'Information' is a legal term sometimes used to describe the charges in a criminal case. You can look back to the start of the case and see the entries for the initial murder charges are also described as Informations: 10/28/2022 Information Filed Count 1: Murder

So this new docket entry just means they're trying to amend the original charges and supplant them with a new Information. It doesn't necessarily mean that the new charges are based on new evidence. The motion to amend also doesn't mention any new evidence, they just say that they're doing it to 'better align' the charges with the facts presented in the original PCA.
Yes, I was! Thank you for helping me to better understand! <3
 
@Ravenmoon

Not an Indiana lawyer, but I see a problem with that scenario right off the bat.

Here is a link to the Indiana statute regarding child exploitation (including CSAM): 2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 4. Sex Crimes :: 35-42-4-4. Child Exploitation; Possession of Child *advertiser censored*; Exemptions; Defenses

This statute classifies child exploitation as either a Class 4, Class 5, or Class 6 felony, depending on particulars of the offense. Indiana requires that Class 4, 5, or 6 offenses must be filed within 5 years. Abby and Libby were killed in 2017, so any CSAM offenses from then or prior would be time barred by statute.

See: 2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 41. Substantive Criminal Provisions :: Chapter 4. Standard of Proof and Bars to Prosecution :: 35-41-4-2. Periods of Limitation

Even if such an offense were not time barred, it would be unlikely that such would be tried at the same time, as it could confuse issues for a jury IMO. I hope this is helpful!
Thank you, it is!
So, if there is any possibility that RA was discovered to be a part of the CSAM ring, ( hypothetical scenario) say..... from 2012 until 2021, and the proof was only uncovered ( hypothetically) less than a year ago, there is a statute of limitation on the crime itself?
Then, to clarify:
If he went to trial for that, would that end up being scheduled after his current trial that is pending?

I just have a feeling that ( all speculation and opinion on my part) that a connection has been made finally.

I have thought that the connection was with KAK. But now, I am wondering if they were just connected by the widespread ring itself.

I apologize if I am making this more complex than necessary. I tend to do that!

I really do appreciate your response.
Thank you!

EBM:

I was thinking that it may have been his possible involvement in any CSAM wasn't directly linked to A and B. Perhaps it was more broad than that?
Potentially, it could have included masochistic interests as well?
 
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Thank you, it is!
So, if there is any possibility that RA was discovered to be a part of the CSAM ring, ( hypothetical scenario) say..... from 2012 until 2021, and the proof was only uncovered ( hypothetically) less than a year ago, there is a statute of limitation on the crime itself?
Then, to clarify:
If he went to trial for that, would that end up being scheduled after his current trial that is pending?

I just have a feeling that ( all speculation and opinion on my part) that a connection has been made finally.

I have thought that the connection was with KAK. But now, I am wondering if they were just connected by the widespread ring itself.

I apologize if I am making this more complex than necessary. I tend to do that!

I really do appreciate your response.
Thank you!
Statutory limitation periods normally run from the time of the offense. Several exceptions to this rule exist (and are set forth in the links I provided in the earlier post to you). Indiana seems to make several exceptions in cases of child exploitation. However, CSAM possession does not seem to qualify.

The relevant Statute of Limitations exceptions are laid out in (e)(1) through (e)(6) of the statute. Here's the link again: 2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 41. Substantive Criminal Provisions :: Chapter 4. Standard of Proof and Bars to Prosecution :: 35-41-4-2. Periods of Limitation
 
Statutory limitation periods normally run from the time of the offense. Several exceptions to this rule exist (and are set forth in the links I provided in the earlier post to you). Indiana seems to make several exceptions in cases of child exploitation. However, CSAM possession does not seem to qualify.

The relevant Statute of Limitations exceptions are laid out in (e)(1) through (e)(6) of the statute. Here's the link again: 2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 41. Substantive Criminal Provisions :: Chapter 4. Standard of Proof and Bars to Prosecution :: 35-41-4-2. Periods of Limitation
@AugustWest

I appreciate your patience and your response.

Raven
 
RSBM - like where the defence suggested in the FF the victim might have been hung by her feet from a tree to bleed out?

<modsnip>

One area where I agree with Bob Motta is that it is very difficult to assess the opposing claims until you get into defended proceedings and hear argument on it.

My own advice is to skip the entire pre-trial phase for this exact reason. As you can see, I am not good at following my own advice.

BBM
Well, I think we can agree - that's not presented as a fact in the FM ... it's presented as a theory.
jmho ;)

Agree w/ your advise that above that you (and I) aren't good at following. lol!
 
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