IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[FrostedGlass]

it could be quite simply that the error on the tip meant it was never matched to a person / got misfiled. Then it's in digital purgatory never to be seen again. Potentially only a line by line review of the source documents discovered this error. Or maybe a brute force technique for near matches.

Who knows - but at the end of the day I certainly would not be surprised if it is all down to a simply clerical mistake like this.

We know Liggett was provided a tip narrative from ORION DIN-000074-01 to review. It was from Dan Dulin.
Given the sophistication of the program, I can't make sense of this long lost tip.
Did DD lose the tip for all those years and then he finally found it and entered it into Orion?

(Snips from the link below about ORION)
ORION also has new automated features. When a phone tip is entered into the system, ORION can actively process that raw data and “push” leads and intelligence to investigators. For example, if a phone tip is received in the L.A. office about a person in Boston who could be a suspect in a nationwide terrorism case, that information is entered into ORION, reviewed in L.A., and instantly routed electronically to Boston agents for action.

ORION also performs automatic searching of new information entered into the system to locate potentially matching persons, locations, vehicles, events, and organizations. These potential matches are shown to ORION users and help investigators “connect the dots” in a case where many FBI offices or law enforcement agencies are involved.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2008/september/orion_092208

 

[photographer4]

Just pointing out that I said nothing about RA’s possible guilt or innocence. I was pointing out that once the public knew someone had witnessed a man walking on 300 N that day, that someone could call LE and say “hey that was me” and assuming LE could somehow corroborate it so many years later, that witness testimony disappears. It wouldn’t necessarily exonerate RA but that’s one less witness in the timeline.
I never mentioned RL.
Never mentioned confessions.
Never mentioned the PCA.
I don’t accept that I am “dangerously” thinking about anything.
I’m guessing you responded to me by mistake

So why *didn't* police put this out to the public as soon as they knew someone saw a "muddy & bloody" man leaving the general area where a murder had just taken place? At that point, what was the reaction of the police? What possible reason did they have to sit on that?

 

[Emma Peel]

How the heck do we have a tip not signed or dated by anyone! In such an important investigation! Do we even know who Dulin turned his tip narrative into, or when? Why has he been unable to locate the recording? What did he record it on?!

Might be a safe bet that Dulin is not going to enjoy his day on the witness stand.

 

[photographer4]

Long ago, JH said something about there being more video of the girls talking about stuff girls talk about. My impression was that it was from earlier on the trail, before they got onto the bridge, so I have always wondered if there is digital evidence of some kind from the north side of the bridge. Unfortunately, I don't think whatever that was (if it exists), was identifying to the killer, because if it was a clear image or something like that, then I would guess LE might have released it to help with tips. However, maybe that evidence helps place him either on the north side trail, or walking on the bridge itself, going north or south, etc. Or maybe there was an encounter. Or they made a comment about a guy in the woods. Whatever. Just guessing...

As for the phone, if we are to believe that RA is the killer, and that there really was no digital evidence linking him to the girls, then we have to believe that RA became an opportunistic killer that afternoon, out of the blue at 45 years old, already armed, who got so caught up in the crime that there was unclothing, possible reclothing, killing, moving, staging, covering with sticks, leaving signatures, etc. I personally think L's clothing was on the ground and A ended up on top of the shoe and phone by happenstance, and the killer simply didn't see them or wish to retrieve them from under her body when he gathered the other clothing and tossed them in the creek. It doesn't seem a teenager's cell phone would be of any significance to him in his mindset, especially if he had no idea he had been filmed. JMO.

ETA: Now, if LE is dealing with the type of person who, as part of their fantasy, did take photos with L's phone, or made the girls take photos of each other, then that would be a definite signature and add to the enigma that is RA. In RL's affidavit, the FBI agent did suggest that this kind of killer would take photos to memorialize, and that was their cause to collect digital evidence. Would photos on L's phone be included in that PCA? IDK. Maybe wouldn't have to be. I would still be shocked if this took place, though. JMO.

It is difficult for me to accept that this wasn't a planned attack. I'd like to know what profilers had to say about the way the crime scene appeared to them. What if any significance did they think the scene had and what did it say about the killer?

 

[Yemelyan]

So why *didn't* police put this out to the public as soon as they knew someone saw a "muddy & bloody" man leaving the general area where a murder had just taken place? At that point, what was the reaction of the police? What possible reason did they have to sit on that?

Seven days after the murders, LE did say this about calling in tips on people seen walking (via the public information officer):

"We're trying to get people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland, that were on the interstate, that were in Logansport that might have saw somebody walking, hitchhiking-- if they saw a duffle bag laying somewhere, anything. We're just reaching out for people that saw anything within that distance," Riley said.

Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide

The search continues for the person who killed two teenage friends in Delphi one week ago.

www.wthr.com

 

[somequestions]

Just pointing out that I said nothing about RA’s possible guilt or innocence. I was pointing out that once the public knew someone had witnessed a man walking on 300 N that day, that someone could call LE and say “hey that was me” and assuming LE could somehow corroborate it so many years later, that witness testimony disappears. It wouldn’t necessarily exonerate RA but that’s one less witness in the timeline.
I never mentioned RL.
Never mentioned confessions.
Never mentioned the PCA.
I don’t accept that I am “dangerously” thinking about anything.
I’m guessing you responded to me by mistake

I did not respond by mistake. I thought from that post and previous posts that you thought the evidence against Richard Allen was compelling. I do not think it is compelling.

I think the PCA is thin and very weak and contains very little evidence other than the toolmark analysis of the unspent cartridge. I mentioned Ron Logan because so many people seem to post here that because Richard Allen was wearing the same clothes as bridge guy that means it is good evidence when the reality is that even the property owner in the area, Ron Logan, was wearing similar clothes too. At trial, the defense is going to be able to counter every eyewitness put forth by the prosecution.

The confessions may or may not have details in them. Of course, before I get responses, I know that we have to wait until trial to see what all the evidence the prosecution has against Richard Allen and what was said in the confessions he made.

Richard Allen may very well be the killer, but if I was on a jury I would find it very difficult to convict him based on the evidence released to the public to date. The only compelling evidence that I think the prosecution has is the unspent cartridge that toolmark analysis says was ejected from his gun. Unless there is some new definitive evidence that gets released to the public later, I think this will be a tough case for a jury.

 

[FromGermany1]

Might be a safe bet that Dulin is not going to enjoy his day on the witness stand.

He has earned his troubles. IMO

 

[Megnut]

What if there was a master plan? Groupthink.

Several participants. All with prior dirt they couldn't afford to have published, each parking in different places. What is MHB was not the destination, only the starting point?

Different scale totally but you know how, when there's an underage drinking party and the cops show up, everybody scatters like rats once the lights go on?

What if it was supposed to be a clean abduction? Wisk the two swiftly to a ready outbuilding or a waiting vehicle? It might've seemed as if they simply vanished into thin air.

So what if something when off-plan and it got messy fast? What if a lot of rats bolted?

What if, that day, RA was the old lurker in the park who managed to get himself seen while the others, coming up from the underside, avoided detection?

It feels like there could be a network of nasty at play here, every entity holding a certain silence, not just because of this crime but because they all came to that day with dark secrets. Tentacles.

Remember what LE said at a presser?-- wasn't it something about maybe even right in this room. Your CVS pharm tech. Who else? Pick a profession -- secret lives.

JMO

 

[photographer4]

What if there was a master plan? Groupthink.

Several participants. All with prior dirt they couldn't afford to have published, each parking in different places. What is MHB was not the destination, only the starting point?

Different scale totally but you know how, when there's an underage drinking party and the cops show up, everybody scatters like rats once the lights go on?

What if it was supposed to be a clean abduction? Wisk the two swiftly to a ready outbuilding or a waiting vehicle? It might've seemed as if they simply vanished into thin air.

So what if something when off-plan and it got messy fast? What if a lot of rats bolted?

What if, that day, RA was the old lurker in the park who managed to get himself seen while the others, coming up from the underside, avoided detection?

It feels like there could be a network of nasty at play here, every entity holding a certain silence, not just because of this crime but because they all came to that day with dark secrets. Tentacles.

Remember what LE said at a presser?-- wasn't it something about maybe even right in this room. Your CVS pharm tech. Who else? Pick a profession -- secret lives.

JMO

I'd believe this more than I would that RA acted entirely alone here. That he just *happened* to be there and then decided today was the day he'd become a child killer.

 

[M. Kay]

I find that statement by Carter especially cringe worthy. If the prosecution is correct, at the moment he made that statement, they didn't know diddly.

(Not able to graphically place these two comments correctly) Yes, let's see in a courtroom, when such day finally arrives, why it has taken more than seven years to bring forth all that Doug Carter has known for so long. "Do tell"...

“I wish we could tell people and literally the world what we know and one day we will be able to, but today is not that day,”

- Doug Carter

 

[girlhasnoname]

Then maybe MW was an investigator as he isn’t charged with breech. Only with theft. How odd.

AB's lawyer submitted that statement to JG Oct 19th saying that MW took those photos without his knowledge and consent and that MW was not employed by him.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

Bolded. The problem is IMO, that if he did pass the 3 juvenile females at 1.30 (I believe he must of) then where was he if he is not the guy woman walker saw on the Bridge?

RA said he saw neither woman walker, or the victims, but as they 'sweep' the trail behind him - where can he have been so not to have seen them?

Personally i think if the tip had been handled properly in those early days, this case would not be a great mystery.

Your last paragraph, boy do I agree with you.

 

[sunshineray]

Long ago, JH said something about there being more video of the girls talking about stuff girls talk about. My impression was that it was from earlier on the trail, before they got onto the bridge, so I have always wondered if there is digital evidence of some kind from the north side of the bridge. Unfortunately, I don't think whatever that was (if it exists), was identifying to the killer, because if it was a clear image or something like that, then I would guess LE might have released it to help with tips. However, maybe that evidence helps place him either on the north side trail, or walking on the bridge itself, going north or south, etc. Or maybe there was an encounter. Or they made a comment about a guy in the woods. Whatever. Just guessing...

As for the phone, if we are to believe that RA is the killer, and that there really was no digital evidence linking him to the girls, then we have to believe that RA became an opportunistic killer that afternoon, out of the blue at 45 years old, already armed, who got so caught up in the crime that there was unclothing, possible reclothing, killing, moving, staging, covering with sticks, leaving signatures, etc. I personally think L's clothing was on the ground and A ended up on top of the shoe and phone by happenstance, and the killer simply didn't see them or wish to retrieve them from under her body when he gathered the other clothing and tossed them in the creek. It doesn't seem a teenager's cell phone would be of any significance to him in his mindset, especially if he had no idea he had been filmed. JMO.

ETA: Now, if LE is dealing with the type of person who, as part of their fantasy, did take photos with L's phone, or made the girls take photos of each other, then that would be a definite signature and add to the enigma that is RA. In RL's affidavit, the FBI agent did suggest that this kind of killer would take photos to memorialize, and that was their cause to collect digital evidence. Would photos on L's phone be included in that PCA? IDK. Maybe wouldn't have to be. I would still be shocked if this took place, though. JMO.

I'm confused about the shoe/phone location. In the state's response to the D's motion to suppress the search, the state says Libby's phone was found under Libby (on page 8 of the search warrant, also on the link). Defense via the Frank's Memo says it was found under Abby.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm confused about the shoe/phone location. In the state's response to the D's motion to suppress the search, the state says Libby's phone was found under Libby (on page 8 of the search warrant, also on the link). Defense via the Frank's Memo says it was found under Abby.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

I'd put money on the state being correct. There are a lot of clear errors scattered throughout the FM.

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

It is difficult for me to accept that this wasn't a planned attack. I'd like to know what profilers had to say about the way the crime scene appeared to them. What if any significance did they think the scene had and what did it say about the killer?

John Kelly profiled BG, he pointed at fantasies, compulsions, urges. AFAIK, the FBI never released a profile. They did provide ‘behavioral clues’ In 2017.

The FBI has since released a list of behavioral clues that could help lead investigators to the killer or killers. The agency is asking the public to be on the lookout for anyone who has exhibited the following signs:

• Changes in their daily routines, including modified sleep patterns
• Increased use of alcohol or drugs
• Cleaned or disposed of clothing and / or shoes that might have been worn on Feb. 13
• Missed work or other engagements
• Anxiety, nervousness or irritability
• Excessive attention to the investigation, media coverage or lengthy discussions related to the murders

FBI releases list of behavioral clues to help track down suspect in murders of teens near Indiana trail

The agency is asking the public to be on the lookout for anyone who may have exhibited these behaviors.

www.wdrb.com

 

[TL4S]

In the affidavit from Scremin and Lebrato's investigator, 1/12/24, I'm still a little surprised by this one, number 7:



10/28/22: 08C01-2210-MR-00000 - State v. Richard Allen- 2 Counts of Murder - Google Drive

 

[TL4S]

I'm confused about the shoe/phone location. In the state's response to the D's motion to suppress the search, the state says Libby's phone was found under Libby (on page 8 of the search warrant, also on the link). Defense via the Frank's Memo says it was found under Abby.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

I know, it's a mystery. Someone is right and someone is wrong, but I'm guessing we won't find out until trial?

 

[Emma Peel]

Here's a question that nags at my brain. Why did the killer toss the clothing into the creek? He didn't even do a good job at it because most of it was found just down the bank from the CS.

Did he toss them there, or did one of the girls? Did it happen before or after the murders? Why not leave them with the bodies? If he was trying to hide the body location, why toss a brightly colored t-shirt into the water, at a bend in the creek, and which flowed directly toward the bridge?

I know it's been suggested that it was to destroy DNA or something, but really? In everything he did he was only worried that he'd touched those couple pieces of clothing? IDK...I feel like this was part of the event, at some point, and it had meaning. JMO.

Okay, I'll bite.

Perhaps it has meaning as to the staging at the crime scene.
(LE has used the word staged to describe the crime scene.)

The clothing discarded in the creek could be part of the staging.
or
The clothing discarded in the creed could be a result of the staging.

One might argue that the discarded clothing in the creek is part of the larger staged crime scene.
And, the discarded clothing did draw attention to the area of the crime scene; was that intentional messaging?

JMHO

 

[Emma Peel]

In the affidavit from Scremin and Lebrato's investigator, 1/12/24, I'm still a little surprised by this one, number 7:

View attachment 478567

10/28/22: 08C01-2210-MR-00000 - State v. Richard Allen- 2 Counts of Murder - Google Drive

As Scremin & Lebrato made it clear in their transfer motion that they saw merit in the Franks Memo O-Theory ... in what way does #7 surprise you?

 

[TL4S]

Okay, I'll bite.

Perhaps it has meaning as to the staging at the crime scene.
(LE has used the word staged to describe the crime scene.)

The clothing discarded in the creek could be part of the staging.
or
The clothing discarded in the creed could be a result of the staging.

One might argue that the discarded clothing in the creek is part of the larger staged crime scene.
And, the discarded clothing did draw attention to the area of the crime scene; was that intentional messaging?

JMHO

I have similar thoughts, plus more. It's just so strange to me, all of it.